Yor, Onyx, and all civ population growth rates

When it comes to population growth rates, a lot of things still seem kinda unbalanced and dont really make a lot of sense... as your world grows, the population growth rates get slower and slower, even though the actual "growth numbers" might be getting much bigger. when you're sending your people off to other planets and starbases, it doesn't make any sense that everyone on your big worlds suddenly decides to stop breeding very quickly while there's still a decent population to breed from and a very large demand for more people. i know that you're trying to avoid population snowballing in the game, but there's many other ways to control that... the planet class, and housing, and food supply, and pop growth rates, and approval (which could work more like it did before, where the more population u gradually add, the more you need to add approval stuff to keep them happy) can all be used to make sure it doesnt become too overpowered, but the current system of everything just getting slower and slower and slower while there's so many more planets and resources to get means that i haven't even had to think about the entire food aspect of the game. it's never needed. i focus on approval for a core planet right away, then never need to look at it again. if feels like all these systems that could help control population snowballing aren't being used, in favor of a system that makes no sense when you really think about it.

With the current system, synthetic and silicon-based growth doesnt seem like it can compete with carbon-based and aquatic life forms either.  It takes way too long to build synthetic citizens to be able to compete with organics when it comes to grabbing the best planets and resources near your homeworld before the other civs, and the silicon-based growth rate is only half that of the organics, even with 30 starting promethion. by the time u get enough resources to increase their growth rate to even be equal to organics, the organics will have already gotten most of the good planets and resources in the area. and that doesnt even include them trying to compete with a race like the mimot. here's a few ideas i had for each of those life forms that might help them compete with the organics...

Yor: I love their starting world. the durantium cloud does a great job of starting them off with a resource they require to make new citizens, and the kenetic boost does a great job of giving them an early military boost to help offset the fact that they're going to start out "breeding" slower than all other life forms, at least starting out. considering how much they really do need that durantium too, i think they should have at least 1 or 2 durantium resources in their starting solar system. otherwise, if they're not lucky, they will only be able to produce 1 citizen every 10 turns, even with several core and colony worlds. this just cannot compete with the other races in terms of early empire growth. I was thinking that there could be different citizen building projects too that could make specialized citizens depends on what special resource was used to create them. like having a citizen building project that uses one promethion instead of durantium, but those citizens will have 1 higher int and 1 lower diligence, or one that uses antimatter instead, then gives 1 extra resolve and 1 less diligence. i think this would be very useful for allowing them to be able to rely on more than just one resource for their entire empire (they might want to use the durantium for other stuff a lot too). It would also make sense that robots would be a little better than other lifeforms at choosing how to build their new citizens to make sure they're going to be well suited at the assigned task they're being created for. and special resources aside, the construction cost is far too high for a starting civ. synthetic already has no growth rate and costs special resources for citizens. making the construction cost that high just makes it unfair. considering that other civs are able to build up their planets while producing citizens means that synthetic will be both producing citizens slower (while using special resources to build them) as well as building their planets up much slower, because so much of their planet production time is put into citizen production. I know that they might have a big snowball population problem later in games after construction is really big on the core worlds and there's no food system to keep them in check, so maybe the citizen building projects could cost a lot less, but have a cooldown of a few turns to help make sure they cant grow out of control too fast.

Onyx: I think that they need a better starting world, more like the yor. nothing with a -50% gowth rate though, with them already being at half growth that would just be horrible. but something that right from the start is adding the resource that they need to grow and thrive, promethion. Considering how much their civ needs it too, it would make sense on a couple levels that there would be some promethion resources in their starting solar system. completely relying on luck of having nearby promethion means that silicon life forms are going to be unable to compete with the other civs most of the time. and even with 30 starting promethion their growth rate is half normal, so it's going to take a lot of time and mining to get them up to normal growth levels i'm guessing. considering the descriptions of the onyx, combined with the fact that they have very slow growth rate and really need starbases early on to get promethion, i think that a good idea might be to have the citizens in their starbases add to the population growth of the nearest core world. i think that this would make sense considering how much they enjoy living off planet, and would make starbases much more prevalent and useful in their civilization that enjoys being off planet on structures that resemble asteroids... like their rocky starbases.

14,474 views 7 replies
Reply #1 Top

After purchasing, I started a game with pretty easy options and proceeded to start my adventure. After a short while, I encountered the Yor in the early game. They declared war on me when I had barely begun with a total of 65 ships to my 5. Hardly seems fair. Is this normal?

Reply #2 Top

Quoting gil999, reply 1

After purchasing, I started a game with pretty easy options and proceeded to start my adventure. After a short while, I encountered the Yor in the early game. They declared war on me when I had barely begun with a total of 65 ships to my 5. Hardly seems fair. Is this normal?

Do you have a save file? That's not really enough to go on.

Reply #3 Top

Yes, I have a save from less than an hour play but I can't find the save location. Is there a way to attach the file in a reply here?

Reply #4 Top


When it comes to population growth rates, a lot of things still seem kinda unbalanced and dont really make a lot of sense...

Nice Basil...

I think that the TLDR take-away of revisiting the "growth penalties" of the non-organic (Yor, Onyx, ?future Slyne, ?future Synths) is a point well made.

I have not played the Onyx, but would like doing a deep-dive on them as they sound very compelling and interesting from what I've read.  However (as I mentioned elsewhere), I never played them in GC3 so I feel like it's less useful for me to do so when I cannot really make a GC3 "playfeel" comparison.  But they definitely sound interesting, and their growth mechanics are definitely a part of this. 

With respect to the Yor, what you've described (very slow start rate, can't keep up with growth early, and opportunity cost of building pop vs structures) was the reason that my "go big" recommendation for them was to remove their pop cap entirely.  Allowing for their bad early-game to be made up with a big late-game.  Derek did make a couple of tweaks in this direction - eliminating their crowding approval debuff and I think making them a little happier generally (IIRC (I have not played them since these changes were made)).  I'd also advocated to peg their approval at 100%, if you recall as well. 

Perhaps approval also would be an appropriate mechanism for making up for poor growth since prod = input(approval%).  So very high approval means a production boost.  From what I've seen, the AI does a very poor job managing approval in the early game - and probably later game too. 

https://forums.galciv4.com/511327/081-yor-at-300-turns

Either way.  I'm guessing the Roadmap to the Apr 26th "Full Release" date is pretty full and finding appropriate resolutions to the issues you've outlined would be better in a post-1.0 environment, when time and attention can be spared to be spent on these things.  As things are now neither faction is weak, and if you look at the Metaverse stats, plenty of people are still playing the Yor (although the Onyx, not so much I think?) so obviously these aren't super pressing nor game-breaking concerns ATM.  Additionally, I'm guessing Food gets a revamp post 1.0 also at some point, and penalizing food mechanics will spare the Synthetics & Silicates, so it may not make much sense to attempt to balance out these advantages/disadvantages either until, or within the context of a food balance/rework/relook. 

Cheers & nice post,

-tid242

edit:  FYIW, population growth can slow with increasing population in real life.  Once an environment or ecological niche starts getting filled out, there's less growth to fill out.  Just a thought.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting gil999, reply 1

After purchasing, I started a game with pretty easy options and proceeded to start my adventure. After a short while, I encountered the Yor in the early game. They declared war on me when I had barely begun with a total of 65 ships to my 5. Hardly seems fair. Is this normal?

well all the ai usually makes combat ships pretty early and fast (i'm usually one of the lowest in military near the start compared to the other civs). and the yor is one of the best at this since they get a +50% manufacturing policy and aren't effected by pollution. so yeah, that can be normal depending on how far into the game u are and how the settings are. yor and mimot are fastest ship producers i think btw. when they have tons of early ships though they're often tiny hulls with 1 or 2 dmg so it's not too bad.

and tid- totally agree, growth rate should not be focused on again until post release. in all fairness though i did write this post over 2 months ago :P

Reply #6 Top

Quoting gil999, reply 1

After purchasing, I started a game with pretty easy options and proceeded to start my adventure. After a short while, I encountered the Yor in the early game. They declared war on me when I had barely begun with a total of 65 ships to my 5. Hardly seems fair. Is this normal?

I'll 2nd Basil's claim.  Early game even if you try to bulk up military as fast as you can, you'll still be middle of the pack in relative strength, at best.  There are so many tricks that you can use to accelerate and even the easy settings, the AI's still going to be doing military at a pretty good rate compared with an average human player.  The AI heavily prioritizes having military strength.  And some races (Yor are one of them) like warships more than others. 

If you don't want to race them with military, the easier option is to get them to like you more.  Assign a diplomat to their civ, and otherwise make them like you more.  No one goes to war with someone they like.  You'll still need some military ships though, because if you're too wimpy you'll be too tempting for the AI not to attack you regardless ..

Also, be aware that there is a BUG right now that allows the AI to get more military ships than it otherwise could by surveying anomalies that give ships too easily and quickly.  This may be also some of what you're seeing.  It may be better when this bug is fixed (they're working hard on fixing it currently).

That all being said, every game is different - the Yor may have just gotten off to a massive start in your game through pure coincidence.  This does happen too.

It's a bit of a learning curve, but worth it.  The first handful of games are pretty rough, but once you start grinding out small victories, you'll realize how much you've learned from those difficult experiences.

Good Luck, and Welcome!

-tid242

 

ps: sorry basil, didn't realize your post was so old mb.

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Reply #7 Top

Ok, thanks for the reply. I understand a little better now. Before they declared war, they offered a treaty of free passage between our territories and it seems like they scouted me out before attacking. At that time, I had been playing for 58 mins and they had 113 ships to my 4. lol