paxx I was never taught morals, if anything at a veryyyy young age I was taught the opposite and I have strong morals, religion was never introduced to me I sensed God at a very young age before I even heard the word Church I knew other ppl related this God I sensed to the word Church, when I was older and did actually step foot in Church I felt God was not just there but rather "everywhere" I think the more ppl try to find him and search for him and direct answers the more they lose him, the more you just accept him then there he is! hehe

(does that make sense?)

I'm not going to get a headache today so off to work I go... hehe

bye you guys

quite the oppisite for me. I had God and religion stuffed down my throat since I was old enough to talk.

That is one of the reasons my faith is so strong.

And to all those others who have posted on this thread: thank you for a good read and a good laugh!

I think the last 10 - 20 posts made my day/morning

It just got more interesting...

(especially since Bakerstreet dropped in... I love the bakerstreet/paxx/Davidk debates)


Science, I think, provides more of an explaination of things. What I think is the "real' conflict is how religion and/or people viewed God.

God is suppossed to be this 'magical' person that 'looks' human. So when things start to be explained the 'magic' gets taken out of the equation.


I think how we are really suppossed to look at God as far as universal design is that laws had to be set up, decisions made, areas created.


I think with science we are now descovering just what those rules are.


Now tell me something... If God had the Bible written in such a way that detailed explaination of all history would that honestly leave room for Faith and also would have anyone then or now understand what it is saying?

God:

E=MC Squared...

Humans:
What?

God:
The Earth is not the center of the Universe

Humans:
Yeah... right.


God:
Huge dinosaurs roamed the Earth for millions of years before you.


Humans:
OK, time to burn this book.


God:
hmmmm... said to much. Better not talk about evolution... idiots.*


*NOTE
The views expressed are an opinion portrayed by one persons view. It is not the view of this station... I mean the Universe or its subsidiaries. This re-enactment has been brought to you by:

Toon XP. Forget about reality, we don't exist anyway. Might as well get cartoony!

[Message Edited]

but who knows I'd still like to know how God expects us to pass these trials on earth and make it when it's seems impossible cuz of our surroundings and our physical makeup.

Your lookin' at an ex-crook
in fact, I'm lookin' back at the day I got off the hook
and put the crookin' act back behind
Man I got, no plans to go back there
I used to be blind - but now I see fine, with divine spectacles
Some biblical meats and vegetables, my level's rising like cholesterol
best of all, I'm blessed to call God my father, I got arrested,
Let me tell you how it happened,
Though I'm tough like shoe leather
I always new whether
or not I did good, I always could do better
Plus I knew a lot of fellas worst than me
I thought, 'How bad could I be?'
Then I got a letter a subpoena
to pre-bema
court trial. I thought, 'How?
Of course I'll plead not guilty, I'm just a poor child
I figured, 'No lawyers needed... the court speeded
they're mistaken, I'll take my own case and plead it.'
Conceited - I figured I'd throw the judge one line
blow his dumb mind and be out of there by lunch time
Dressed to impress with my best clothes on
just then the Judge stepped in with a red robe on (hold on)
this must be a dream
it's Chief Justice Supreme Judge Elohim
I'm feelin' sick like disease
cause in His court we all fall short like midgets on our knees
My lunch plans canceled, I don't stand a chance He'll
pull my file, I'm in distress like a damsel
I'm shocked and in awe then my jaw hits the floor
the prosecutor comes in and it's Mr. Law (Awww)
No more hope and now I'm waitin'
he's known for bringin' condemnation with his open statement
My heart is poundin' as he states what the charge is
'THE DEFENDANT'S GUILTY OF NOT KNOWIN' WHO GOD IS.'

What! I know who God is..I wear a neckl;ace with a cross on it, I go to church every now and then...I've even had the same girfriend for 3 years straight.


I'm in trouble man- I better come up with a plan
Maybe I can make the dash
Or give the judge a little cash
I know that I'm wrong
And I'm trying to be strong
But my rap sheet is long


I found myself jammed in court and in short
I was guilty of bein' filthy like men in sports
I was losin', the prosecution was relentless
he pointed out the flaws in my mouth like a dentist
He exposed my very words
gave the court a record of every dirty joke and every curse word
More error when he picked my mind like a psychiatrist
the jury's buyin' it, they're gettin' mad like a scientist (There's a door)
You know I'm eyein' it, better try to split
cause Mr. Law rules with an iron fist
I'm not a chump but I know I gotta run
but I'm not dumb, I see that guard and he's got a gun!
No one's laughin' not a one
He pulled out x-rays of my heart and I don't know where he got em' from
He labeled me a thug, I screamed, 'I WAS NOT!'
Objection overruled, then he pulled out my mug-shot
showed the jury me and my boys at the drug spot
and the bus stop smokin' much pot in a rough spot

He went on, revealed the lust I hold plus I'm swoll
cause He showed all the stuff I stole (the prosecution won't rest)
He made reference to my sin-nature, pulled out mad evidence
Statin' ever since I was born I've
been fond of sin, on one accord with Satan like a Honda
With justice on the trail He proved I was gonna fail
put my motives on the scale (that's it, I'm goin' to jail)
Kind of petro, but yet I'm thinkin', 'Let's go
How bad can jail be?', But now they're screamin', 'DEATH ROW!'

Death Row! you can't be serious! Yeah you caught me in a few lies, stole stuff, cheated on my girlfriend, BUT I NEVER HURT ANYBODY!
'Your Honor Your Law says that if man breaks even one Law then the penalty is death. And we are ready to procecute and sentence!'

This is messed up you all
But yes it's for real
Can't you see that I'm doomed
And I'm about to be consumed
I'm still o young
But sin has got me so strung
I'm about to cry
Because I'm about to die

I'm still in court and in my mind thoughts of death sink
By now I'm funky, I'm hungry plus my breath stinks
The Judge, jury, even I'm convinced
I'm guilty of law-breakin' and it's all makin' sense
You and I only look good to the human eye
man bein' basically good is a human lie
I'm thirsty, but not for water, for mercy
I'm unworthy, the whole court room heard me
The Judge stood with the law book they all looked
and saw what blew their minds as the one who made the law took
off His robe, and became the substitution
off we strolled to the place of execution
Gave me a pardon instead let them bruise Him
justified me and let the law accuse Him
They gripped Him, stripped Him, whipped Him
They saw thorns and picked Him they sticked Him
He made Himself the victim
I felt the pain, I walked home in the rain
changed not the same
because I knew I should have got the blame
How could I complain?
I wept on my bed, when on my pillow I found a letter and it read,
'I BLED, - ALL BECAUSE I LOVE YOU
MY BLOOD WAS SHED, ALL BECAUSE I LOVE YOU
THEY KILLED ME INSTEAD ALL BECAUSE I LOVE YOU
I AROSE FROM THE DEAD, ALL BECAUSE I LOVE YOU.'
'He's Alive!' I thought that He'd be back
at the morgue tears poured, then I hear tap
at the door unexpected
but, Yup, you guessed it
He had resurrected!
He came in my heart and blessed it
Love manifested
though I wear jeans and not the double breasted
I praise God I got arrested
cause I had just heard of Him
now I'm a son, not a distant relative
like a third cousin, word brethren
Get a load of me I'm free
I'm property of the only God who died for me
I can see a whole society who need to cop a plea
Sin's got the lock, but God's got the key

93 million miles from the blistering surface of the sun hangs the planet earth-
A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe
The ultimate creation from an infinite mind An unbelievably intricate complex design
A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that...

THERE IS A GOD

The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see
A few degrees closer to the sun and we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further and we'd freeze.
The axis of the earth is tilted at a perfect 23 degree angle, and it's no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.
Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere that we breathe.
It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.
You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are clearly seen through His creation, to believe this is not hard.
If there is a design, there is a designer. If there is a plan, there's a planner... and if there's a miracle, there is a God.

Did you know the moon controls the tides, it's the maid that cleans the oceans, even the waves don't crash the shores in vain. The tides drag impurities into the depths of the sea, it's nature's constant recycling chain.
It simply boggles the mind to think that the stars will rotate with such exact precision that it's true. That the atomic clock with an error factor of less than three seconds per millenium is set by the way they move.
Though they silently orbit, the sun, the moon, the stars are like celestial evangelists above, who circle the earth every 24 hours, shouting in every language that THERE IS A GOD!!
The Scripture says the heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
If we allow our minds to drink in all the truth that just surrounds us, creation itself will help us understand.


When the fool said in his heart there is no God, he rejects the truth God painted on the canvas of the night.

Atheism has never created an artistic masterpiece, never healed a fatal disease or calmed a fear. Atheism has still never given answers to our existence, peace to a troubled mind or even dried a tear.

For it's God who created heaven and earth and flung the stars in space and breathed in the handful of dirt and it became a man.

It's God who sits on the circle of the earth and measures the mountains in a scale, and holds the seven seas in the palm of His hand. It's God who sent His only begotten Son to the cross of Calvary to save our souls from hell and the grave.

And that concludes the Sermon for wednesday.

#303 by Kona0197 - 9/17/2003 7:39:46 AM And to all those others who have posted on this thread: thank you for a good read and a good laugh!

Nice, Kona.  "good laugh" at what people have posted?  So people's views, if not exactly like yours, are funny?  I just can't understand that mentality.

Whatever, Karma. I find his posts funny too, actually.
Other people have actually brought up interesting ideas and arguments though.

Out of respect of people's religious views, I would never say that I am laughing at anything they say.  As I said "I just can't understand that mentality".  Religion is an extremely personal subject.  To laugh at somebody's views on it just seems extremely disrespectful to me.  The interesting thing about that is: I'm not religious at all. I have not been baptized, I do not go to church, I did not get married in a church, and I do not believe in the classical definition of "God".  But I respect people who do, if they really do, because they stand by their convictions.  The one thing that I really hate in life are hypocrites.  People who say that they have strong faith but act just the opposite.

Paxx: The questions you pose are only problems for biblical literalists. I'm not sure God ever told anyone to stone people to death. If it were anyone but you, i would swear you are skirting the question. I'll try and be more clear.

IF

(there is no God, and thus no 'Good and Evil', and humans are animals who have reached our privileged place because of a system of evolution)

Then

(why does your system of values completely reject the aforementioned rules of evolution and embrace the tenets set forth by an imaginary God)?

Why do we bother with the severely retarded, shouldn't they die as soon as possible and free up resources for those who actively support the species and pass on fit genetics? Think of the billions of dollars in assisted living and health care freed up for the more genetically-fit. Why do we spend billions researching cures for hereditary disease? Doesn't nature have a built-in response to genetic defect?

When mother cats kill the weakest of her kittens, we call it evolution, when mother humans do it, we call it murder. If we are animals, why the double-standard?

The English sat back and watched the Irish die from starvation, and protected their fishing resources from them. That is an evolutionarily sound practice, and yet we perceive that as 'wrong' (evil in my lexicon). Why, if evolution is the reason we have achieved our place in the world, shouldn't Tiny Tim simply die "and decrease the surplus population"? Granted, Tiny Tim can't have any benefit to society to apply, but many don't.

Your head seems to be saying one thing, and your heart another. I don't worry about ya because I know which side wins with you. Others who reject God and religious ethics don't fare as well. Evolution teaches us that if there is no necessity for charity, there more often won't be any.

What has to be addressed isn't so much the engine of evolution, that is pretty much soundly proven. ANyone who knows, though, knows that there isn't a 'missing link', but thousands or millions of 'missing links'. Homo Sapiens Sapiens have been walking the earth for upwards of 130,000 years in. Our theory of evolution will get ya up until then, and maybe even up to about 30,000 years ago depending on who you ask.

The last 30,000 years defies the model, though. Something clicked that simply can't be explained genetically. The last 10,000 years, and pitiful sliver of time on the evolutionary scale, contains the entire recorded history of modern humans, from scratching on clay tablets to posting on this messageboard. We have evolved exponentially, defying our reliance on nature, embracing ethics that are totally unnatural, innovating in ways that defy explanation.

Our physical evolution is understandable, but there is something in humans far deeper than the physical. Some people explain it away with visiting alien teachers, and some people are completely, obstinately, humanist about it. I explain it differently. Something very significant happened 30,000 or so years ago, though, and it calls into question evolutions's *sole* role in ushering us to where we are today.

BakerStreet, I'm afraid you are mixing two things together. Evolution is not about values or morals. It's just something that happens, I guess you could call it a fact of nature. Just because gravity exists doesn't mean I have to start pushing people down bridges.  Evolution is not about right or wrong.  Some people have blue eyes, some people have brown eyes. Does that mean one is better than the other, or that one is good and the other one is bad?  No, it's just a fact.  The sky is blue. Is that good or evil? The planet earth is round; good or evil?

As I said before, our values are taught. Our mommy tells us: "No, August, it's not nice to hit your brother!", "Patric, don't ever lie again, it's BAD!", etc. I have two young boys, 2 and 4. And I can tell you for sure that they have no idea what right or wrong is if we're not there to tell them. Actually, I'm fairly sure they'd end up eventually killing each other at some point if they were totally left without supervision and teaching. At that age, they are still learning what is wrong and what is right. And they have to be reminded.

I totally disagree with your assumption that a godless person has trouble discerning right from wrong. I have a feeling most horrible crimes come probably from very religious people (fanatics). I'd be interested to read some statistics about it if they exist somewhere.

Bakerstreet, you make the difference between biblical litteralists and other religious people. But how do you know who is right? You say you're not sure God told people to stone anybody to death. But how DO you know for sure then? How do you know that what you think is good is what God considers to be good?  Those people who stoned women to death were pretty darn convinced that they were doing God's will.  There are a hellovalot of people in this world that do criminal acts (evil) with the convinction that they act on behalf of God.

A bit out of topic, but it reminds me of something...
When I was a kid, I remember a scene in a movie (I totally forget exactly what movie it was though). It was mediaval times, and there were two armies preparing for battle.  You then saw the general of both camps make their prayer to God to lead them to victory, as they were fighting for His glory.  Now, I was probably 7 or so, and I remember asking my mom "If they both fight for God, who is God going to take for?"

About that last post, here is how I see it.
Evolution doesn't happen overnight. There wasn't an ape, and then from him was born a man. No, more likely, it took thousands of years. Gradually, certain early humans were born more intelligent. Gradually, they started learning to make things. Fire, tools, weapons. I don't see any missing link. The missing link is a myth, as evolution is not a chain, as it's impossible to point at specific links. Think more of a rainbow. Can you point at one specific color? No, but every color is there somewhere though.

A bit out of topic, but it reminds me of something...
When I was a kid, I remember a scene in a movie (I totally forget exactly what movie it was though). It was mediaval times, and there were two armies preparing for battle. You then saw the general of both camps make their prayer to God to lead them to victory, as they were fighting for His glory. Now, I was probably 7 or so, and I remember asking my mom "If they both fight for God, who is God going to take for?"
by paxx - 9/17/2003 12:12:22 PM

hehehehe! paxxy (now that you've posted that pic of yourself somewhere around here I can really picture your face) how cute!!!!!!

anyways, lots of ppl cry they know God (me too) but he takes his own one by one no matter what side of the war they are on too...
[Message Edited]

/me sits back and enjoys Baker & Paxxy debate and grabs a sandwich

Can I have a bite too? All this is debating is making me hungry.

(all right, leaving this thread for today, got other things to do. See you tomorrow, Auguste.)

ahhh shoot! and now he leaves...

/me tosses you the lettuce and tomato

totally disagree with your assumption that a godless person has trouble discerning right from wrong. I have a feeling most horrible crimes come probably from very religious people (fanatics). I'd be interested to read some statistics about it if they exist somewhere.

Same here paxx.

Morals by the way are nothing more than personal tools one makes use of to decide if they can accept their own behavior. Not standards one uses to apply to others in dictating who they are and how they should act.

I do kind of slip to the side on the parents teaching morals, they present a template, but a child designs their own as they grow intellectual and emotionally.

[br]example:[/br] My parents morals on the subject of children is that they hold ownership and can do as they like with them.

Mine are much different to say the least.






[Message Edited]

Paxx: Your wrong, I don't believe that a 'godless' person has no values of morals. I don't believe anyone *can* be Godless, whether they believe in Him or not. You are differentiating between instinctive behavior and 'values' because it suits your argument. Evolution is as much about 'choice' as it is about chance.

That's why birds have such beautiful plumage and human women like a muscular, hard-thrusting backside. Selecting a preferable mate and euthanizing your wounded pack-mate are both parts of evolutionary theory. The same evolutionary influence that makes us dig a healthy looking girl at the mall also makes that momma cat kill the runt without remorse to free up food for the more viable ones. To a human, though, that's murder.

If there is no supernatural force influencing our ideals, then we have to accept that we are compelled only by our nature, genetics, instincts, and oddly those do not jive with human virtues. You're making my point. Humans *naturally* don't behave in ways that suit them evolutionarily. Why? The "negative", weeding-out, aspects are just as mandatory for our survival as the positive, but we have decided that they are 'wrong'?

The average Human would suffer shortage, risk their well-being, to pull along an inviable child or peer. We see things as "wrong", why? Whoever said killing someone that was eating your food and offering no benefit to your or your species was 'wrong'? Why would they have ever said that if they were only motivated by what we know of natural selection? If they aren't motivated by just that, then what?

Call it what you like. I believe that way down deep you are referring to the same thing i am, even if you don't realize it. In four posts I've made my point. If you consider your humanity a natural occurrence, you have that right.

BakerStreet:

If there is no supernatural force influencing our ideals, then we have to accept that we are compelled only by our nature, genetics, instincts, and oddly those do not jive with human virtues.

This is my opnion about it. We can also think. You forget that. We can also be taught by people in our environment and by real live situations. If you don't believe one cannot chose his or her destiny then we are merely machines.

/me wipes the steam from her monitor

Baker,

Something very significant happened 30,000 or so years ago, though, and it calls into question evolutions's *sole* role in ushering us to where we are today.

I don't think it's necessary to postulate any event outside of a human context.

Evolution (in and of itself) had little to do with the explosion of human ability in the near past (evolutionarily speaking). There's no fundamental difference in the raw ability of a homo sapiens sapiens of today and a homo sapiens sapiens of 30 or even 70 thousand years ago. If you snagged a newborn sapiens from 70,000 years ago and raised him in today's world, he would fit right in, both physically and intellectually.

The progression of sapiens might seem to be unusually spectacular, but I don't think it's necessary to look beyond the ability of humans for the answer.

They started slowly, to be sure. In the absence of any preexisting knowledge or skills, they had to take 'baby steps' in their understanding of things around them and in terms of developing the mechanisms to interact with their surroundings.

The inflection point is essentially two fold; first, there was the increased tendency for humans of the time to interact more and more often, sharing knowledge (willingly or not), second (and most important, in this context) was the advent of an agricultural social structure, which allowed (for the first time) humans to be able to do something besides primarily focus their efforts on subsistence.

Both the option of pursuing tasks other than mere survival, and the need (due to clustering of population) for different ways to do things (such as new housing challenges, etc.) lit the fire under the pot, so to speak, for an explosion of invention and advancement. Having the need to do something, and the time to do it, was the primary cause of the sea change in human interaction with their environment.