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Creation vs. Evolution

Creation vs. Evolution

I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?

To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
209,035 views 1,102 replies
Reply #1076 Top
If you don't ask serious questions that can break your beliefs fundamentally every once and a while how do you propose to get to the actual answer?


Well, like i've said a few times before I pray to God for guidence, as well as personal study.
You too, can also pray for guidence if you feel you need it.

I feel I should discontue my posting on this board. This discussion will continue forever. With truth not being truth and 'truth' not being 'truth'. I feel that i'm not properly presenting my beliefs. For those with a spark of interest of anything I said, do like Joe said and check it out. Ask yourself questions. Strive for the truth. Use your own Bible to see if what i've said is true and makes sense. Ask your church leader questions about what i've said. Make sure he uses the Holy Bible to answer, because thats where the answers are. Ask him about the paradise earth. Ask him why, according to Ecclesiastes 1:4, the earth will endure forever. And again, make sure he uses the Bible because the answers WILL be in there. If you truly want to serve God accurately, you'll do these simple things.
Reply #1077 Top
Then you may agree that there is the possibility that your religion isn't the true one? Don't you think God would help us to see the answers because he wants us to live?


Yup. Yup to both questions. help us does not mean COMMAND us. If we are really seeking the truth we will continue the journey forward. I do not think God expects us to be perfect at it (especially after, as the story goes, Jesus died for our sins). Can it be possible that you and your brethren are wrong? Does that mean God will toss you out of the Great Memory like a football going down-field??


But you can't say the same because I guess you think you are perfect. I can't fathom any other possibility even though there can be some. I guess I would ask why do you think your perfect and that evolution is the way it is?


No wait you DID say there is a chance ironically by stating that there was a time where smoking and other such acts were allowed.




Is it me or am I not explaining what reading comprehension is and interpretation can do to understanding anything?


Does anybody understand what I am talking about when I speak to reading comprehension and Attribution Theory?
Reply #1078 Top
heh BStreet...your fight is a good one...But, if you know anything about JWs they will just smile at a slamed door, and just go to the next one..It's really not their fault, They're just Programed that way.



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Reply #1079 Top
Like the congregations of old, false teachings have crept in our congregations. But as time passed, we were enlightened and those teachings are no longer part of our religion. As for today, we've cleansed ourselves of every Babylonish teaching to truly be "no part of this world."


SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo then there was a point where you were wrong even thought you 'believed' you (meaning JW) was right.

But that can't happen now because... why?


Is anybody else getting my point (not that you have to agree with it but at least understand it) so I can stop quoting so often?


All I am trying to say basically is that if you, someone else, and I can not leave the possibility of mis-understanding of something possible then how do we get enlightened.

Even JW has to be thankful for allowing itself to ask serious questions otherwise it would not be enlightened as r3fr so states of today's congregation. (keeping in mind that yesterdays congregation said the same thing)


Science and religion NEED self-evaluation periods... period. To take that everything is right and the ideals of the leaders are best because God wouldn't allow it to be wrong (not true believers because they are true believers and can't get it wrong) or that the scientest don't ever have a personal agenda would be dangerous indeed.


I need a soda. Anybody want me to get then something from outside?


PS
IPlural don't look out the window. Nothing to see there. The world is flat. Done.


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Reply #1080 Top
I am just trying to say that it 'could' be said that a known truth at any point in time can become something else later on.


There are some limits on the degree to which 'truth' is becoming 'something else'.

To use the flat earth argument, in order for a flat earth theory to supplant the current state of knowledge, it would have to subsume *ALL* of the physical characteristics and observable phenomena that are currently included in the current viewpoint. Additionally, in order for it to become accepted knowledge, it would also have to predict events or behaviour accurately that cannot be predicted or explained in the current system.

To use a simple example, take an eclipse (solar or lunar). notice the shape of the shadow on the moon for a lunar eclipse, or look at the shape of the occluding form blocking the sun in a solar eclipse. In every observed instance, that shape has always been circular, regardless of when they are observed, and the relative positions of the subject bodies. As a brief foray into elementary geometry will make clear, the only geometric form for which every cross section (or projection, for a shadow) is circular is a sphere.

Apart from this, there is a vast amount of observational evidence (and theoretical as well) to support the sphericity of all sufficiently massive bodies.

A flat earth theory, to be valid, would have to subsume (incorporate) *every* bit of the above observations and theoretical framework, and it would have to improve on the current theory as well (with predictions, bourne out by observation, that cannot be made with the existing theory). If it is only as good, there is no compelling reason to choose one model over the other.

I said all of that to say this: A large number of people (some of whom have been taught in science) fail to understand the mechanism of the formation, development, and growth of scientific theories. Where a scientific theory has been bourne out repeatedly by a substantial number of observations and validated predictions, it does not just go away once a case has been found that the current theory cannot explain. What happens is that the new theory that explains the new problem still has to explain (fully) all the observations and validated predictions that the old theory explained. The old theory doesn't go away, it essentially becomes part of the new theory.

To elaborate with an actual occurence of such subsumation, I offer Newton's laws of motion, and Einstein's special theory of relativity. Simply put, Newton's theories stated that the velocities of motions were linearly additive (like throwing a 100mph fastball forward from a train moving at 50mph, the ball would have a groundspeed of 150mph). Einstein's theory was written to explain characteristics of motion (theoretical at the time, but subsequently verified experimentally) where the linear addition of velocity was no longer valid (very high velocities approaching the speed of light (to abuse the above example, we'll launch a baseball at 50% of the speed of light, from a spaceship that is travelling at 90% of the speed of light. The baseball will have a measured velocity that is *less* than the speed of light, somewhere around 99.999%)). Einstein's laws of motion produce the same results as Newton's for relatively small velocities, it only differs in the exceptional cases. It also makes verifiable (and verified) predictions that Newton's theory cannot make.

Such incorporation is typical of well established scientific theories.

Now, when you start discussing very novel scientific theories, philosophical 'truths', and historical assertions, it does become possible for a subsequent theory to have a substantial chance of fully supplanting a prior viewpoint. Even then, the supplanting viewpoint needs to make a better fit of the data and evidence than the previous viewpoint (or as is often the case, incorporate new evidence or data that is at odds with the prior view).
Reply #1081 Top
China what do you want from outside?


How about you Aleatoric ? need anything from the store?





Yes this thread can go on for ever... my point exactly. The search continues until you physically die.

Makes going to the store seem less important... oh well, still going though.
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Reply #1082 Top
Oh and yes Aleatoric, I know of how science theory works. I actually learned just a few months ago.

This is why I say that science is more of a proving force of belief than religion. It has more of a reality component and largely is open for ridicule, testing and debate.



What I am saying though is the word science has been use to speak truths about the current state of mankind.

For example slavery and how people of color are inferior. Or how the Earth is flat and to say otherwise is blaspheme.


Are you sure you don't want anything from outside?
Reply #1083 Top
Iplural said: "jafo said it best, those that thump any form of dogma either for or against the existence are in fact a cult."

Forget it... I said a bunch of stuff here but it isn't worth it. People will still talk out of their behinds regardless, and I have said it all before. All I can say is if you can equate mainstream religion or Atheism to "Refuse that blood transfusion or we'll not allow your family to have any contact with you.", then you are doing a great service to cults.

Cults are about control, and the average religious person has their relationship with God with no need for cult leadership. The Atheistic understanding of mainstream Christianity here is on par with R3fr's understanding of Quantum Mechanics. Don't excuse abuse and make it mainstream by making everything varying degrees of cultishness.


**

China: I know, but I really, really like slamming that door. Not because I don't feel sorry for them, but because people like R3fr actually comprehend their beliefs, embrace the ignorance and barbarity, and still dig it because they think they'll be rewarded for it in the afterlife. At least Muslim terrorists get virgins, JWs just get to boss people around.


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Reply #1084 Top
In the context of my prior post, and to drift back on topic, there are two parts to the theory of evolution. We have a catalogued collection of physical and observational evidence that shows an essentially linear correlation between the age and complexity of the items of evidence. How that evidence came to exist in that form and order (actual evolution or 'planted' by God) isn't really relevant to the theory, because we cannot test that condition. We have to treat the evidence as just that, evidence. To explain this evidence, then, science has constructed a theory that seeks to explain the events and forces responsible for the evidence to exist in the manner we find it. The part of evolution that is truly the theory part is the theory of mutation and natural selection (the details of which have been gone over quite a bit here ).

That said, in order to alter or supplant that theory of evolution, a new theory must provide at least as much ability to explain the increasing state of the forms, and must provide a mechanism that drives the process.

We have direct experimental evidence for the action of natural selection, most notably in populations of various bacteria and insects that show a generational improvement in their ability to withstand certain environmental pressures (pesticides and antibiotics). Resultingly, any new theoretical evolutionary mechanism must adequately explain this observed behaviour, as well as providing information and / or predictions that natural selection cannot.

IMHO, I would not be surprised to see such a new theory, as there is a great deal we do not know about the process itself, and our body of evidence may become more complete over time.
Reply #1085 Top
joetheblow,

Don't need anything from outside (it's cold here ). Not to mention that I should be sleeping now

Attribution theory is a pretty good call here (and i'm certainly not immune from having it applied to me).

Our brains are wired (whether through blind evolution or divine influence) to try to figure out and explain what we sense. From an evolutionary standpoint, that interpretational characteristic of our brains is a necessary survival mechanism, as we would need to know what to avoid, what to eat, what to run from, etc. Our brains have to make decisions like 'Big furry thing with lots of teeth, should I try to eat it or run away?' Since trying to eat the big furry thing is probably a bad move, evolutionary pressure rewards those who can interpret quickly and with some idea of the details of what we're interpreting (e.g., the big furry thing is more likely to eat you ).

Where it becomes a bit more tenuous is in the realm of abstract ideas and concepts. With the big furry thing, I can point to it (hopefully from a position of saftey), and tell you, 'don't try to eat that!', and as a concrete object, you'll look at it and say, 'yeah, that would probably suck.'

But to interpret complex theoretical concepts (or to attempt to relate to you my perception of the presence I call God), there is far less of a common, communicable frame of reference. At some essential level, we all live inside our own heads. Everything we experience is subjective. Even what we call an objective reality is essentially just an agreement concerning parts of that subjective experience. Such agreement is on pretty firm ground for a tree, or a rock, or the ravenous bugblatter beast of Traal. It becomes a bit more difficult with faith, or history, or evolution (score one for the topic ), because there are quite a few different, even reasonable interpretations of the sensory data.

Because we're wired that way, we *always* want some sort of explanation for what we experience. And we're more likely to accept an explanation from someone we've become accustomed to as being an 'authority' (our parents, teachers, clergy, etc.), without much regard for if they are actually correct (to the degree that anyone can be). We should always question authority and the explanations provided by them. Generally, you'll have to initially accept that argument from authority, so you can have a ground to place your feet for the first stages of evaluating the accuracy of that authority. But one should never blindly or passively accept the word of *any* authority, for to do so is to surrender a portion of your own self determination.
Reply #1086 Top
joe this morning while watching some birds in the back yard I happened to notice that not only is the world flat, but someone has encased my yard in Lexan! BONK! bird was kinda shocked to discover this also





Shhhhhhh, listen, Flop, flop, flop, flop, flop, flop, flop, flop, flop, flo fl f ...

Know what that is? It's the sound the Flat Earth makes while rotating
Reply #1087 Top
r3fr: You failed the test. You don't have a sense of humor and you can't interact without spamming bible text.
Reply #1088 Top
r3fr: You failed the test. You don't have a sense of humor and you can't interact without spamming bible text.


my thoughts exactly!
Reply #1089 Top
creation in the classic sense is wrong. Evolution is right. However the two can coexist. You just have to believe that the world is a lot older than it is and God while He didn't directly create everything we see now, He had a guiding hand and shaped life to His will. Like a potter with clay.

Good ole' Catholic teachings from school. I don't know if they are actually what the Church has indoctrinated, but this is the gist I got from many Catholic science teachers.
Reply #1090 Top
oh yes. ka bump
Reply #1091 Top
Abandon hope, all ye who enter here


OKAY...

No one should be able to post hereafter unless they have read every stinkin post previous. Actually I wish the powers that be would just lock it. Anyway, one should be prepared for the people who just read the first post and reply, never noticing that there are 44 friggin pages of venom thereafter and not a single point that hasn't already been made.

Flamewars should have an expiration date...


*sigh*



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Reply #1092 Top
I agree with Baker. This should be locked.
Reply #1093 Top
Who decided it would be a good idea to 'ressurect' this thread?

Nah, it doesnt need to be locked...ppl just need to think before they post.
Reply #1094 Top
i aint touchin' this with a 20 foot pole
Reply #1095 Top
Who decided it would be a good idea to 'ressurect' this thread?


Travis.... >
Reply #1096 Top
Oh and if you guys want to discuss the creation and evoulotion and the age of the earth thing, look up the old thread called creation vs evolution.


kona, you were the one that said anybody that wanted to discuss this topic should go to this thread. Maybe Travis took your words as incouragement to get the thread going again.


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Reply #1097 Top
yes but I forgot that this whole thread is nothing but a big flame war.

And I do not wish to dicuss my beliefs anymore.
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Reply #1098 Top
didn't have time to read it. sorry. took me this long to read it. I agree this thread needs to be locked, stocked, barreled, and sent down the river.

sorry again

and please nobody post here and just let this thing slide down the board and disappear back to the ugly place it came from. It was my mistake and I am regretful for dredging up what shouldn't have been.
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Reply #1100 Top
I think just about all that needs to be said in this thread already has been...

No need to lock it though...as long as we behave like the respectable adults we (err...most of us) are.