thanks paxx. Couldn't resist.

I have to say that my own philosophy also keeps me at odds with organized religion. There is a bit too much skeptic in me to accept 'revelation', so I am left to look at religion as history and take what parts my 'soul' decides is 'truth'. Even when 'history is written by the victors', truth emerges in the fine detail, or in the overall picture when viewed from a distance. I believe truth cannot be hidden, only slightly obscured. I find God 'apparent' in my perception of the universe, and therefore my razor cuts differently than motion's. It may seem odd to both deny the validity of a source, and yet form one's beliefs based upon it, but we do the same thing every time we read the newspaper. Our perception is all we have.

I don't agree with Kona on most of what he says, and I don't agree with his opposition either, but I wish we could all agree that we really don't *know* anything, and atheists and fundamentalists alike are leaning on faith in their perception of the world. I respect motion, and paxx, and Kona, but I think something as important as one's spiritual life, or lack thereof, requires a bit more elasticity.

You know, Jafo hit my nail right on the head with his hammer

I know it was only a movie, but I think that if anything I would follow along with the thoughts and feelings of it and the verses in *Stigmatta*

"The kingdom of God is inside you. And all around you. Not in buildings made from wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Lift a stone and you will find me."

Now if I was to be a believer as some would think all must, it would be the above and not some form mail style of dogma stuffed down my throat and in my ears by someone who lands on their knees to kiss some other Humans ring as was the norm of my family.

The person from which Christians take their name gets all of my respect. I can't think of a life more worth emulating. I can't think of anyone else I'd rather learn many of life's lessons from. But that doesn't mean I think that he was the son of God, or is in any way a god himself. A great teacher and thinker, yes, but I can't raise him to the stature of god.

The modern day Jews believe he wasn't the Son of God. therefore that is where the problem lies. he was and is the Son of God.

I do not have blind faith.

The modern day Jews believe he wasn't the Son of God. therefore that is where the problem lies. he was and is the Son of God.

Careful now, starting to sound anti-semitic. Bear in mind that I have a Jewish wife. Bear in mind that I become just like a bear when my wife is attacked. Also bear in mind that there are members of the Jewish faith right here at WC. Just try and keep the discussion non-denominational and I will endeavor to do the same.

The statement I made had nothing to do with a personal attack, sorry.

If we are going to get into that frame of mind, I feel attacked because some of you said you dispise organized religion and that there is no God.

"The kingdom of God is inside you. And all around you. Not in buildings made from wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Lift a stone and you will find me."

Not only just from a movie, but one of the verses of the coptic gospels of Thomas, ostensibly an apostle of Jesus.

And very much in line with my particular views. I have very little doubt that God does exist. I also have very little doubt that the texts and dogma of organized religion have only a small part of the answer.

I'm fascinated by this type of discussion, and it's been remarkably well argued by the participants here . To readdress an earlier argument, the disparate views and discussion points presented here make an overwhelming case against any established form of religion. If we existed under almost *any* established religion, odds are a discussion of this sort would be branded as heresy or blasphemy. If one cannot question (and challenge) their beliefs (or the beliefs handed down to them), then those beliefs have no chance at all to grow. Nor would we have the tools with which to grow out of any views that are incomplete or inaccurate.

Kona....saying 'there is no God' is not discriminatory...it is an opinion. It's also important to note that Kona's statement was not anti-semitic, either.

The word is 'despise'....and 'organized religions' would be inclusive, not exclusive, so again there is no 'attack' or discrimination/differentiation.

I just do not like people taking what I said as a attack just because I mentioned The jews (I have no problem with them by the way)

I was just quoteing a news article anyways.

Sorry motion if I upset you. I was by no means trying to attack you or make fun of you.

Aleatoric....the survivability of this thread and topic is not a result of 'Established Religions' but is in spite of them. It's the modern scepticism towards religion of all strains that enables free thought. It is safe to presume that were one particular religion autonomous free thought would be its first victim...

Jafo.. God gave us FREE WILL to not believe in him. He shouldn't have done that. That way we would all believe!

Kona....conversely, Man gave God the characteristic of only being 'believed in' by many, but not by all....

I am starting to think that if God revealed himself to everyone on earth we would still have those that do not belive in him.

The hell with evolution!

I think you all need to watch some more Veggie-Tales. Bob the Tomato can explain all this in one simple fun song.

If not, listen to something from these guys... http://www.audioa.com/

The evolution stuff...all it takes is one time for Christ to touch you as you fall on your knees balling your eyes out and you'll realize how silly the whole evolution thing really is.

Some things just cannot be explained...like why my wife just cannot get the sauce right when she fixes me peppersteak for dinner.

The evolution stuff...all it takes is one time for Christ to touch you as you fall on your knees balling your eyes out and you'll realize how silly the whole evolution thing really is.

EXACTLY... happended to me LONG time ago!

Evolution = Science BS!

Modern day scientists are nothing more than people dicovering certain things through high tech means that I already KNOW through my faith and THE WORD of GOD. Revelation expains everything that is going on in todays world, if you have the heart to comprehend and understand it! And the faith to believe that the Bible is more than just a BOOK that man wrote.

The Bible is a book written by God Through Man.

Kona....strangely, God can ONLY reveal himself to those who believe in his existence. If God were an individual entity he would not be so many different things to so many different peoples and religions, but must be a conceptual figurehead/icon of those very disparate religions.

If there is no belief then there cannot be a God [for those who do not believe].

One person's belief that there is none does not negate another's belief that there is one.

Both can be, and are CORRECT, as it is only the individual who can determine its truth.

If there is no belief then there cannot be a God [for those who do not believe].

Not true. God could walk the Earth right now and you would proably deny him. Just becuase YOU THINK he is not real dosen't mean he is not.

For Example: The human body is way to advanced and thought out when it was designed to be a evolved form of life..

Same with the earth: to perfect to NOT have been created.

One person's belief that there is none does not negate another's belief that there is one.

True....hmmmmmmmm

Kona, if God himself appeared to you and told you "I do not exist", you would still not believe him.

More seriously. No, you're right, I wouldn't. I've worked in the psychiatric ward some years ago, and I can tell you that many told me they were God, and I didn't believe them.

If there is no belief then there cannot be a God [for those who do not believe].

I was not a believer. I thought the "Whole Jesus Kick" was a way for another thief to steal money from people who didn't have it. I always saw Christians as the biggest bunch of hypocrites. (Pardon my spelling)

No one talked me into "Seeing Christ." No one dictated to me what I was supposed to believe. I was "touched" emotionally and physically with something that was real to me. Something that I cannot put into words much less into type. When this happened I chose to believe in Christ. But as I have lived my life these last 6 years I have a demonstration of the truth in ways you wouldn't understand because you don't believe. To quote scripture to you would probably be foolish because you do not value it or see it for what it is...but none the less...

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1Co. 1:18 NASB

Until you have that "touch" on your life, you will not understand. My prayer would be that you "Get it" someday...but the choice is yours...and always has been yours.

Why can't people take responsability for the good and bad that happens to them and because of them?

Maybe us Christains should not mingle with non'believers...

After all there are only 2 Camps... Gods and the Evil ones

There is no Grey area.

It's 'we Christians'....and it 'can' be arranged.....

Maybe us Christains should not mingle with non'believers...

for the sake of arguements Paul...

Jafo,

'In spite of established religion (or the desire to have one) was pretty much my point. Reading my post, I see it could be taken either way, depending on the way it was read .

Kona,

The idea that there is only one truth (and that the speaker only is in posession of it) is responsible for far more evil than any other human action in history.

Faith in God is only between God and the believer. I am not answerable to you for my belief, nor are you answerable to me. We are each only answerable to God, and only He may judge the worth of our actions.

Also, depending on your point of view, the earth and the human body certainly aren't perfect at all, let alone too perfect. Quite a bit of both systems are compromises between various subsystems. Again, God and evolution are *not* mutually exclusive concepts. It is entirely possible, and entirely likely, that both are truth.

By the way, you may have noticed that you had post #666