I agree with Lady Akasha.

I agree that users should be allowed to make comments along the lines of 'I don't like this, it could be better', even though those comments aren't of any real use to anyone. The distinction I've made a couple of times already is between those comments and the kind that you'd say to the plumber who's just torn out all of the pipes in your bathroom and then holds his hand out for payment.

I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work, when really it's they who owe something (if only a little respect) for the time we've taken to create something for them, regardless of the outcome. They may argue that having paid a subscription fee to the site or having bought a Stardock product entitles them to say what they want to the skinners who keep the site going, but that simply isn't the case.

As I said before, skinners in general don't get any payment for the work they do, so the fact that a user has paid a subscription to the site makes absolutely no difference to them. They create skins because it's something they enjoy, and offer them to others as an added extra. They don't need comments to feel they have done a good job, as the download figures go some way to measuring how well they've done, but nice comments add a little incentive to continuing their work. The outright negative comments serve no purpose whatsoever, other than to hurt the skinner and make them feel like it's not worth their time to create anything new. We've seen plenty of skinners quit because of negative comments in the past.

I don't see why we should just sit back and accept non-constructive negative comments. It all comes down to respect. Regardless of whether the user commenting has an idea of the amount of work that went into a skin, it's not exactly a huge leap of intuition to realise that a skin takes more than a casual afternoon's work to put together.

I also have to agree with Lady A. In so far as a lot of comments/statements that are not 'shiningly positive' tend to get mobbed a lot of the time with very negative and provocative rebukes or name calling, often from some of the regular posters here.I'm not talking about the moronic 'this sux' kind, but the general 'hmm, I don't really like this' kind. I feel these types of rebukes are often as rude as the original 'that sux' poster. I think that kind of response inhibits any real feedback that can be useful to an artist in order to see the things he/she missed or overlooked. People may tend to refrain from posting anything but 'happy' comments and, although they are very ego boosting, don't do a lot to help an artist grow and expand.

Don't get me wrong; there is some constructive criticism here. I welcome that type of feedback.

I don't like it when I get those senseless comments either, but what do I gain from baiting those types of posters? If I respond in a blatantly negative and abusive manner, what does it do to improve the culture and sense of community?


/me holds a private conversation with himself

(OK, pictoratus, you told yourself you would never get involved in these types of discussions. Now you've done it!)

i think in part this discussion comes back to the age old (well, i feels like that anyway ) question of "who is most important to the site".

i am not sure that is quite the right way to phrase it, but i think that is close enough.

if the skinners are the most important, then the idea that they must be protected from all negative reactions, and only see lovely comments makes sense (yes, this is a bit extreme).

if the people who pay to support the site are the most important, then they have the "right" to say what ever they want about anything that is uploaded at this site.

neither of this is the real situation. the site needs both sets of people, and other groups as well (like the admins, the coders, etc)

of late this message board does seem less tolerant, and more sensitive. but, you need to remember that it wasn't long ago that it felt like it was being ripped apart from within.

for any skin, there are going to be people who like it, and people who don't like it. no doubt as a skin author it is nice to hear that people love your work

should people never say they don't like a specific skin? i would say no.

Lady Akasha - Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.

i would like to think they wouldn't get stomped.

there have been many cases where this seemed to happen, but normally they are where someone who we have never seen post or comment before appears on the message board, complains that all of the walls (for example) are "crap", there is nothing they want here, and why cannot they download anything more?

now, this was normally triggered by them reaching their download limit, which used to be 50 meg. under the circumstances, it is reasonable to ask if they hate so much of the work here, why have they downloaded so much of it, and why are they demanding the right to download even more of it for free?

over all, i agree that artists should be aware that not everyone likes their work. at the same time, a reasoned "critique" from a fellow skinner is going to get more attention, and deserve more respect, than a row of vomit icons (thankfully no longer available).

so, a request (although most people probably wont spot it buried in this thread ):
if you don't like a skin, and decide to tell the artist this, please be polite, and if possible, give some reason for your views.

eg, "i don't really like this wall since it is far to dark for my tastes, and doesn't provide any sensible space for my icons"

any skinners want to comment on this? i presume you aren't going to object to, or get upset about, this sort of "constructive" negative feedback. personally, i would be quite happy with these sort of comments.

As I said before I would recommend anyone just to have an exhibition of your work in a gallery......Now just go incognito and listen to upstarts and people that have the urge to degrade anything. It's a laugh. Only a few will give their real thoughts and maybe dare to give advice. You, as the artist will learn to sift the meant comments soon enough. On a site like this, it is just the same. It will vary from "rox" to "sux" and both are meaningless, unless it has the "because bla bla bla and I would do bla bla bla" comment behind it. That will give the author some idea where to improve (or not). Otherwise it's just "a comment" with which you can boost your ego, or maybe some incentive for sheep to skip or download your work.

Excellent points, feline

That's all I'm asking for feline, a little constructive criticism. I like getting that sort of feedback, as if enough people feel the same way about an aspect of my work I'll make a real effort to change it.

I never said that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something. I'd find the site a pretty dull place if all I got on my skins were comments saying 'fantastic' or 'well done'. I like to be able to improve my skills, and in many ways I find skinning a good medium to do this with. I'm probably the harshest critic of my own work, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes after a skin is complete for me to start picking fault with it, so I would never suggest that others can't do the same.

So the whole issue comes down to one thing - more constructive criticism, less abuse.

GH:

I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work

While I support pretty much everything you've said, I take umbriage here. With the exception of admittedly more than a few trolls, skin comments and messages show, I think, rather a lot of support and appreciation from the majority of us users.

It all comes down to respect

Here, here! A round of ale for all! "Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses"

Chef Garry >> My apologies for that comment, as it wasn't really worded in the way I intended it. I was referring to the users who leave the unkind comments, not users in general.

I understood that, just felt the point needed to be made. You've always shown yourself to be a gentleman and I appreciate your work and your comments. Nice design on your website too!

grayhaze - So the whole issue comes down to one thing - more constructive criticism, less abuse.

so, what we really need to do is to explain this to the new visitors to this site

easy to say, perhaps not so easy to do. this board does a good job of presenting a clear and simple policy on warez. i think we need an equally clear and simple guide (policy is to harsh a word) on comments.

it is very little use jumping up and down on people who know no better, simply because they have given a short and uninformative comment. that isn't going to help anyone.

leading by example should help. beyond that, anyone got any cunning suggestions?

I agree that anybody should be able to state his opinion. He should be free to say if he likes a skin or not.

However, this site has rules concerning language and insults. In the comment area, just as in this messageboard, personnal insults and foul language cannot be accepted.

Examples:

OK:
- I don't like this skin
- I think it's ugly, sorry
- I don,t understand why this sin is so popular, it is poor quality IMO.

NOT OK:
- You suck
- You're gay!
- This skin is fucking ugly

I understand that those are the guidelines set by the admins here at the site paxx, but what do any of those 'OK' comments actually contribute toward the site or to the skin author? Some authors may like to have pages and pages of comments of that type, either positive or negative, under their skins, but what actual purpose do they serve?

One potential way to fix the whole problem would be to give a skin author the power to delete any comments from a particular skin that they don't feel deserve the space. This would probably eliminate the majority of negative comments from the site, but it wouldn't prevent those who want to give some constructive advice from doing so.

grayhaze...
There may be inane comments as the system now stands...and any objectionable comments can be deleted by Admins [and responded to]...but to enable the artist themselves to 'edit' comments would/could lead to a false reality of 'all my comments are so darn positive I must be leet'....not necessarily a 'good thing'[tm]...

feline:

it is very little use jumping up and down on people who know no better, simply because they have given a short and uninformative comment. that isn't going to help anyone.

I do think the notion of guidelines is a good one and should be implemented. OTOH, the truly nasty comments (and I think that's been the focus here) are made by people who will blithely ignore such.

Whatever happened to the good, old-fashioned notion of being respectful. It seems odd, however true, that people need to be told how to behave with others. My age is showing.

Oh yes, Chef Garry...Unfortunately, this is so true. 'Nasty' comments are simply rude, unnecessary, unconstructive (as Grayhaze has so aptly pointed out), and quite honestly, ignorant. Negative versus nasty...BIG difference. Manners vs no-manners...BIG difference. Respectful vs simply disrespectful...constructive vs unconstructive, positive vs negative...one gets the point, I guess. Freedom of speech, yes...but 'abusive', no. Simply not necessary. Coming from an educational profession...one teaches 'freedom of speech and expression', but one also is (hopefully) teaching how to correctly deliver this expression in the most 'productive',respectful, intelligent and impactful manner,and that ignorant comments freely 'delivered' simply are NOT respected by the recipient(s)...nor do they particularly give the speaker any validation. Now, as one who no longer speaks as an educator, but simply as a supporter of this site, (financially and otherwise), I would also like to comment that in my humble opinion, the work involved in giving people this artwork FREELY does not deserve 'abusive' negative feedback. If one does not like some artwork and has no particular constructive criticism to offer, what exactly is the need to say anything at all? Freedom of ACTION here means that one does not have to USE the said piece of artwork. Period! I also agree with Grayhaze when he says that it seems to be an internet thing...it's easy to be 'brave & nasty' when you're not standing beside that person, looking them in the eyes. Does that make it right, or even 'ok'? Again , in my humble opinion, no. Maybe MY age is showing here, too, Chef Garry.

# 52 Grayhaze

I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work, when really it's they who owe something (if only a little respect) for the time we've taken to create something for them, regardless of the outcome.

With you saying that in truth its 'they' who owe something even if respect. That shows your level of thought! If I remember correctly, didn't Adni18 get bombarded with comments such as "Skinning should be done because you love it! You should do it for YOU!" That man was pounced for similar comments! Were's the pounce squad that reminds the artist that it should be done for YOU! Oh yeah that's right, different rules for different folks. My bad.

My hat is tipped to you for doing the skinning, it's not easy, I haven't finished my first and it's daunting as hell! However, though I have that level of respect for you work and talent--actually for you and ALL the skinners.
I don't have to agree with a great deal of the egotism that likes to fly around!

#62

Examples: OK:- I don't like this skin- I think it's ugly, sorry- I don,t understand why this sin is so popular, it is poor quality IMO. NOT OK:- You suck- You're gay!- This skin is fucking ugly

Who the heck is talking about such comments? I know I'm not. I would never say such things! This is going in a direction that I never mentioned. I'm simply saying a user/viewer has a right to say 'you work is ugly' without the ever so gentile artiste going into uproar and the drama scene; "What!? How? I....ME... Oh my god, I had this jerk citizen say that my stuff was ugly. Quick quick, someone, boost my ego FAST! I'm feeling whoozy here."

They don't need comments to feel they have done a good job, as the download figures go some way to measuring how well they've done, but nice comments add a little incentive to continuing their work. The outright negative comments serve no purpose whatsoever, other than to hurt the skinner and make them feel like it's not worth their time to create anything new.

That's all contradictory. In one breath your saying an artist doesn't need the comments to to know they've done a good job. While in another beath you say,a neg.comment is to hurt a skinner and make them feel it's not worth the time to make more.

So again, if we go back to the egotism thing. If a viewer see's it and likes it, that's great. But if a viewer see's it and think, "great functionality, but it's ugly wouldn't use it." and posts it such a statement, then it's to hurt the skinner! WOW!(Notice the examples I come with NEVER have foul language, and are not ill mannered. So let's not go the abuse thing)

I don't see why we should just sit back and accept non-constructive negative comments.

Aaaahhh but the "OMG this is so awesome", "I love this", "Great Job","you're the best dude" those are acceptable, constructive positive comments, that SERVE PURPOSE right?

/me bangs head on desk.

I see that this will go no where, I'm speaking to deaf ears.
Who knows maybe it's me, I'm delivering it wrong. I'm just trying to generally say that I think the egotism is a bit high around here. I think citizens/users are treated pretty shoddy. I've watched (read) them make mistakes, and even flat out behave inappropriately but rather than someone being 'intelligent' and handling it properly they pounce. And being that so many like to feel of the intellectually elite I'm not understanding something.

I AGREE that yes, good old fashioned respect and manners should ALWAYS be used, I'm not disputing that!!!!! But the whole if someone hates it why do they have to say it, is RIDICULOUS! Then what is the need for someone who loves to feel the need to say it! Think about it! It goes back to my original arguement, if something is great share the comments, if it's not then it's 'out to get the artist' motives. Holy Cow!

I generally try to stay out of these kinds of discussions, but for what it's worth......... Lady Akasha, I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you've said.

And I'd like to add, when I get the "this sux" comment, I take it for what it's worth, (which is very little) and reply with something such as "oh geez, I was trying so hard to impress you with this one" 

Either I'm very tired or just downright dumb, but I honestly didn't understand the majority of what you were arguing about Lady Akasha. You took a few of my comments out of context and then argued about them on a tangent.

As I've said time and time again, I don't believe that the users do necessarily owe anything to us skinners, as the majority of the work we do is for ourselves. My point was that a large number of users think that we owe them something for taking time out to look at our work. This can be seen in the 'make this work differently' or 'change this now' comments and e-mails we get. They aren't suggestions on how to improve a skin, but rather outright demands for additional work to be done to create something to their individual tastes.

You also seem to have totally failed to grasp what I said about non-constructive comments not being a worthwhile thing. What I said applies both to positive and negative comments, but due to the very nature of the negative comments applies more so to them. It's always nice to have someone say 'thank you' or 'good job', and I'd be going against my whole respect and manners argument if I said otherwise, but there's no need whatsoever for a 'this sucks and WindowBlinds wiped my hard drive' comment. So yes, I am saying that positive comments serve more of a purpose than a non-constructive negative comment. I'm not sure how many other ways I can say that before you understand that I'm not stating a valid argument rather than skirting round some ego-based issue and 'contradicting myself'.

As I also said before, there's always going to be some amount of ego or pride involved in what we do. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't be a little upset if you spent weeks creating something exactly the way you wanted it to be, and then let other people take a look, only to be told that your work was worthless. In effect you're being told that your appreciation for quality in your own work is somehow flawed. Call me crazy, but I'm never likely to be overjoyed when someone tells me I have no talent after I've spent so long on something that I think is good. If that means I have an over-inflated ego and I'm full of myself then so be it. I think I'd rather that than be the kind of person who just shrugs and says 'yeah, you're right. I am talentless'.

I think I need to perhaps explain what I mean by a positive comment, a constructive negative comment and a non-constructive negative comment.

I would consider these positive comments:

'Excellent work!';
'I love this! I'm using it now.';
'Well done, you've surpassed yourself this time.';
'Thank you for giving this to us.'

As I said before, these are all welcome comments, even if they serve no purpose other than to encourage someone to keep producing new work. They add a little incentive and life to what would otherwise only be apparent from download figures.

These are constructive negative comments:

'I like this a lot, but some areas could use a little work. Have you tried using a darker shade of blue for the buttons, reducing the titlebar height, etc. etc.';
'This is good, but I sometimes find the titlebar buttons a little hard to see. I think if you made them larger the skin would be perfect.';
'I don't really like this as much as your other skins as I don't think the colour orange works in such large quantaties. Maybe if you redid it in green?';
'This is quite poor, and could use work in so many areas. Here's what I'd change: etc. etc.'

As you can see, I consider anything with suggestions for improvements to be a constructive negative comment regardless of how 'nice' they are about my work. Perhaps this is wrong of me, but it doesn't mean that I think any less of the comments. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to give advice in this way, and I often act on suggestions like those above. Maybe some of them I should call 'mixed' comments, as they often contain the kind of praise you would see in a positive comment. These kind of comments I welcome, and seldom get hurt over.

Now for the negatives:

'This sucks';
'What is this crap?';
'Just as lame as all your other stuff';
'Why bother?';
'WindowBlinds sucks ass. I use msstyles';
'This broke my computer. Don't download it';
'DIE DIE DIE!!'

Are you starting to understand my point now? I really hope so, as my fingers are tired and my vocabulary is nearly exhausted...

I just want you to understand, Lady Akasha, that I'm not some self-obsessed egomaniacal tantrum-thrower who only ever wants people to tell him they love his work. If you hate my work, then by all means say so, but tell me why. Otherwise you're only wasting my time and yours, and creating the potential for ill-feeling in the process.

Finally, in response to Koasati, you may well take a 'this sux' comment for what it's worth, but for a first-time skinner who is really proud of what he's produced and sits there eagerly awaiting the thoughts of others, such a comment is a lot more likely to cause upset. With experience comes tolerance, and to be honest such a comment wouldn't phase me one bit. If they told me my work sucked and then asked me to do them a personalised version in red... well that's a whole other story.

Now see what you made me do. I ran out of words.

Ok now I feel whoozy! Dang it my tendonitis is acting up (Just joshing)

Grayhaze I seriously think that in several areas of this discussion we were just not 'getting' one another. Because in your last post I'm reading it and thinking on a lot of it--I AGREE! And I haven't neccessarily been DISagreeing 'that' much. My point at the BEGINNING was not neccessarily directed towards you persay. I said it several times, it's a more general expression on that subject of your email and artists. It wasn't meant to be "Grayhaze is a egomaniac!" I was simply trying to point that there is such an 'air' around here for the last several months.

And that yes, I do feel that sometimes when you get a negative feedback (especially when you're not expecting it) can be damned humbling! That's it ...that's all. And as I mentioned earlier, I was simply saying that from my experience, it can be humbling. I had a neg comment over at DA--never saw it coming, never expected (EGO!?!?) then when I read it, I about fell out of my chair, it wasn't foul but darn blunt. After licking my wounds, I suddenly felt HUMBLE! I opened the design and looked at it and looked at it,and after a while I thought... "I do see it". For me, it humbled me, and grounded me. That's why I said it's not such a bad thing to get a bad statement sometimes. And I stand by that belief. When we artistes get on a 'good roll' with our works, everything's a hit, great comments etc etc we can get a lil big for a britches. Then something neg comes along, and we remember we always have somewhere to improve. That's all. I don't see what so bad about that?

I'd rather be the kind of person that when I do get a negative feedback (and I'm not talking ones like you mentioned. DIE DIE DIE.) Even if its something like "this really sucks--whats such a big deal". After feeling the icky feeling & you get over such a comment, then say Ok...what could have been better. It makes you look deeper. I'm glad I'm not the kind of person that just pats the lil guy on the head say, poor lil idiot. Because if I go back, and find where I could have made something better--sure enough I WILL find SOMETHING. And then have learned something from it, which in the end will make me better at what I love to do so much. That's just me though. (I hope that made sense)

#69 GRAYHAZE

Now for the negatives:'This sucks';'What is this crap?';'Just as lame as all your other stuff';'Why bother?';'WindowBlinds sucks ass. I use msstyles';'This broke my computer. Don't download it';'DIE DIE DIE!!'

Now there you made me die laughing! If someone leaves a comment like DIE! DIE! DIE! They really need help And again I DO AGREE WITH YOU!

Before I go back to making a new design I just want to add one more time, I did NOT mean my statements neccessarily about YOU, it was on that subject about artists in general. And the air around here. Sorry if people don't like that. I'm not the only one that's felt that way and I don't think anyone should feel like, they have to have a certain egomaniacal outlook to survive at WC. And I know that last statement will piss a person or two off, but oh well. It's the truth. (suddenly hearing Jack Nicholson in my head. "Truth? You can't handle the truth!" sorry, I get goofy at times)

I may not have made my point well, was misunderstood, and I didn't 'get' your expression as well at times obviously. On that note, I'm headed back to my making something

Erm, well how about the comments for this new skin? https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=1&SkinID=3358

(I must admit KCcat's comments made me )



[Message Edited]

sig101

holy shit.. by m0rphium - 6/22/2003 2:38:09 AM

now that one cracked me up!

Yes, me too.

lPlural.....it may have 'cracked you up'....but I would put that one in the 'less than productive' pile....and a copy of it in the 'not appropriate language' pile...so it's gone.

Also, it seems this particular work's comments are a contest for being eloquent with negativity at the artist's expense.....quite a mature game, really...

It isn't appropriate to single out a particular work [of whatever 'quality'] to be spotlighted in a public forum thread such as this one.

******************************************

The problem with negativity in comments on a person's work is that not everyone reacts exactly the same way to derisive attack.

Some 'may' find it 'humbling' or even 'enlightening'....some may not actually 'give a toss' what sort of comment they get, good or bad....and others may just feel so humiliated and demoralized that they leave, never to return.

Because the 'community' here is comprised of all of these 'types', there is a necessity to moderate the language [in particular] and personal attack/insult in general, inherent in many works' comments that the commenter has imagined were 'brilliantly clever' and [God forbid] protected ABSOLUTELY by 'Freedom Of Speech'.

They are not, and serve no better purpose than to clarify in articulate fashion exactly how poor the commenters' social skills really are.

The indictment is on the commenter, not the work....