Founders Vault: November 2017

That was my favorite Vault Update so far, It was so Alien-Centered!

Hey Brad, after seeing the table in the November update with rejected proposals and your design requirements, I just want to say I am supremely grateful that you are the one steering this ship. Your vision of what Star Control is matches closely with my own feelings towards the game. I am really happy to see you rejecting the sandbox, random-generated universe approach. I think that approach creates a soulless, quantity over quality type experience, which is a major reason why I don't play Bethesda games and will never forgive them for ruining the Fallout franchise for me. Then again, since they took over Fallout they seem to have done very well in sales... Not sure what that says about the taste of the mass market.. but anyhow just want to say I really appreciate your vision for the game. 

I also agree that planet exploration should not be about realism. SC2 was not realistic at all in its depiction of planets. Everything was abstracted really... and there was nothing wrong with that. It was still fun. I will say though that I found the mining aspect to be incredibly fun. Running into a planet that had big purple dots of exotic materials that were worth a fortune was incredibly exhilarating to run across. And in the early stages of the game before getting a bunch of lander upgrades from the Melnorme, it was definitely a risky proposition to go try to collect these exotic minerals from the Ruby Worlds. It was a mini-game in itself just balancing the loss of fuel, crew, and landers to hostile planetary forces to the potential reward of a cargo bay full of extremely lucrative minerals. I had a great deal of fun finding ruby worlds, rainbow worlds, metal worlds, etc. So I don't necessarily think mining is boring at all, especially when doing so involved dodging hostile native wildlife, tectonic pulses, gouts of flame, etc. I always looked back on my lander adventures with great fondness.

On the star map and the problems with representation of the stars. Maybe one way to solve the issue would be to have the star map zoomed out but wherever your cursor goes there is a pop-up window that has a zoomed in view of those particular stars so you can see things more clearly? Also not sure whether the star map will be static or in motion. I remember Kessari Quadrant's map was constantly in motion, which made it super disorienting but also kind of cool. 

Perhaps another way to visualize the binary stars is have the binary stars as a graphic that revolves, so you see both stars as they are twirling in place? 

Also, I think all the changes in terms of alien design were fantastic and thankfully they did not make it into the game in their original forms. Although the original Greegrox art concept was kind of hilarious and makes me laugh just looking at it. 

All in all, these updates keep making me more and more excited for the eventual release! 

Two things I want to get off my chest. Firstly, the word "race" is an informal rank in the taxonomic hierarchy, below the level of subspecies. In the context it is used in in-game dialog and documents it should be species.

Secondly, you guys keep using the word sentient to mean sapient. The two words have different meanings.

"Sentience and sapience are two term that are often confused. We will examine the difference between the definitions of sentience and sapience, where these words came from and some examples of their use in sentences.

Sentience means the ability to feel things, the ability to perceive things. Any living thing that has some degree of consciousness is sentient, including insects, lizards, dogs, dolphins and human beings. The word sentience is derived from the Latin word sentientem, which means feeling. The adjective form is sentient.The word sentience is often misused to mean a creature that thinks.

Sapience means the ability to think, the capacity for intelligence, the ability to acquire wisdom. The scientific name for modern man is Homo sapiens. Sapience only describes a living thing that is able to think. The word sapience is derived from the Latin word sapientia, which means intelligence or discernment. The adjective form is sapient. Note that sentience is often misused in place of the word sapience."

With that out of the way, here are my thoughts for the November update.

I think it is good idea to have a fixed map and storyline. Though there could be an option to set the quantity of resources found on planets to random. You would find the same resources, but the quantity would differ. This would add some randomness for people who want to replay the story.

I am not 100% convinced that reliance on user generated content will help the game. Look at where Little Big Planet ended up. It is important that the game has quality content without stuff created by players, also from my experience 90% of stuff created by regular players is not that good, there should be search options to help in finding quality items, maybe showcases by Stardock. Although from what you said the tools will also help the developers, so that is a bonus.

I would actually like it if battles between fleets would be added as a separate mode someday, perhaps after the AI has been improved. Also fights between flagships would be cool.

Agreed, that the aliens should act like aliens.

Regarding planets, I think it would be best if their features didn't pop out too much when viewed from space.

Earth here looks good. The Moon looks odd.

Mercury not so much.

Was Venus terraformed in the future?

Triton looks ok, but it could be smaller since it is a satellite.

We are going to need a "You are here!" sign for when zoomed out.

Regarding the human commander's current design.

My problem with her current design, besides the neck, is that the white portion of her hair seems separate from the rest of it.

In the old model it looked more natural.

I must say that from the old concept sketches my favorite was C.

For Jeff perhaps keep his humanoid appearance as a form you are comfortable with and after getting to know him he'll show you his true form.

As for his true form, I think the bottom center one with the color scheme of the one on bottom right would work. Something like an Aurora Unit from the Metroid series.

On the subject of Jeff I am not a fan of his new ship design. I preferred the old one, it looked more exotic.

I like the new looks of the Measured, Menkmack, Phamysht and Greegrox. Perhaps the old ones could be re-used for minor aliens. I proposed some ideas for the old Measured and Greegrox models.

I prefer the model of the Trandals with multiple tentacles than the two-legged one in the PDF. 

For the old Menkmack, remove the hair and eyebrows and make its skin look more like scales and it could be used as an information broker. Like the Melnorme were in UQM masters. In a way it would be a hint system, selling hints for RU. Like loot boxes only with information instead of cosmetics.

The old Phamysht model with some modifications, change its teeth, might be used as a subspecies of the Phamysht, one of those non-sapient ones.

For the old Trandals the only idea I have for them is a very narcissistic species that believe they are the epitome of beauty.

There could be an in-joke about the old Drenkend concept.

Dreakend: We used to have three eyes but the Scryve found them disturbing and got rid of our third one.

I think the Mu'kay would look better with shorter eye stalks.

After looking through the old images I hope these two critters are still in, they look amazing.

That Phamysht soundtrack reminds me a lot of music from Meat Boy.

Anyway, I'm still disappointed that random map option was not explored more. Would add to replayability by making each sure that each playthrough of original campaign has exploration element, and not just the first one.

And relying on mods is unpredictable. You could get great situation like original NWN community, with lots of published player made content. Or Dragon Age situation with barely any mods, etc...

Still, would love if there are tools for mods where you could set up random map generation and then populate it with focused storyline. Kinda like 4X random map game with objectives.

Heck, what about other way around? Have fixed map, but randomize location of objectives and races. That would be fun. And to have modding tools for the same.

Great feedback!

IF player generated universes fail you still end up with a Star Control II style game with new adventures and universes created by Stardock.  It’s not like we are going to release the game and disappear.

Yes... we called them "races" in the SFU, but in recent years that has apparently become a "PC incorrect" word and it has been changed everywhere to either "species" or "empire" depending on the context it is being used within.  I don't see the problem, but apparently the younger people do.

I like the non-random map.  At least the star systems and planets need to be non-random so players can help each other find rare items (if it's random then finding stuff must become much easier).  At best the amount of resources and maybe enemies would be randomized but I don't see the point to that.

I have two ideas about where to add the fun in planets.  Text adventures (like in the game Faster than Light) are out because if this game is like Star Control II, most planets are virgin with no intelligent life, structures, whatever.  Unless you want planets like Unzervalt (that have precursor stuff in them) to be more common.  Maybe you should make it harder to pick up precursor stuff from planets.  The parts are not just lying around on the planet like discarded trash, instead you have to do something beyond picking them up like a mineral to get them.  My most exciting idea is feeding some Unzervalt-like precursor factory enough minerals of enough types that it can produce an end-game super attachment to your flagship or produce a precursor ship for your fleet, but that sounds a lot like the precursor starbases so maybe that's too repetitive.  A less exciting idea is a hacking mini-game to activate the precursor thing.

You already put in interesting enemies on planets, which is good.

"Moreover, having this shared experience lets us have some puzzles and quests be very very hard. Requiring players to potentially work together online to figure them out (these are side-quests). Many of our games today are so dumbed down that it’s just a matter of going through the motions."

Yeah!  This is a great compromise.  Optional side-quests that are hard, and the main game/story quests that have to be completed to finish the game can be easy enough for anyone to get through them.  Most of your audience will be younger who are accustomed to just being walked through games.  Difficult, but optional, side-quests are there for the original SC2 audience... and the younger people who still appreciate harder games.

As many difficult, hard to figure out quests as you can have would be great in my book.  Also... maybe a few that you can actually fail.  Failure is usually not an option in modern games, one way or another you WILL eventually win/succeed.  With these being optional quests you might also have at least a few where the player can actually lose, and can't go back to re-do it to win, either.  Losing can produce good memories, it really can.

Also... Space is big, you know, the whole Douglas Adams line.  But it is also very easy to make it small.  If, in the distant future of the SCO universe you decide you want to do a "galactic scale" DLC it is very easy to explain that in a way that everyone accepts.

Both natural wormholes and artificial "jump gates" can potentially be said to have any range.  I intentionally give them a relatively short maximum range in my own universe to prevent making the galaxy such a small place.  But, if your lore, you say that these have a potentially unlimited range then you can create a network of either, or both, across the galaxy.  The only flight time is between the wormholes/jump gates.  Travel through them is instant or near-instant.  Then you have a "galactic scale" game that makes perfect sense, even too those somewhat rare people who actually have an idea of how big it really is.

At 1,000 times the speed of light, it still takes over 100 years to fly across it.  Just as you guys were saying early on, it is much bigger than most imagine it too be.

@Rhonin_the_wizard

None of your pictures show if you posted pictures between your text.

I see the issue of Magellan being too small, stars being too big and zoom level not fitting those proportions. Why not play with it abit more? Stars should scale non-linearly. Magellan doesn't even need to be scaled. Keep it a nice smallish size for majority of zoom levels and turn it into a dot when zoomed all the way out into overall galaxy view.

I expect binary/trinary star systems to be a singular system in-game. There should be 1 hitbox that includes both/multiple stars. Even if you hit space between them.

BIG MAP gets a big YES from me!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIFiCLhJmig

I like the cozy background, lighting and the overall feel of the Commander scene. I don't like her almond shaped eyes, perfect skin and separated looking bangs that make her look plastic. Also, the amount of purple in SCO is nauseating.

What makes planet exploration fun? EXPLORATION. That means, in my book, random items, interactive POI (lore text, little crew dialogs etc), monster fighting, puzzle solving etc. etc. Sprinkle those every 10 planets and it's gonna be fun enough to me. Remember those energy scan white points? Those were fun, but scanning was dumb and boring. Make it automatic. Get rid of that "Scan" button. Who's gonna not scan planets?..

Why are there buttons on-screen anyway? Left click to Launch, Right click to Leave. Scan kicks in auto when one gets into orbit.

P.S. Completely forgot about the Phamysht soundtrack. 9/10. Wud bang!

Scanning for me was immersive. I won't cry if it is gone, but I'll miss it. It was like the decontamination process in Mass Effect 1 when boarding the Normandy, sure it was just a masked loading screen, but it added to the illusion of being in the world of the game.

I also watched the "Living World" video.  What is old is new again.  This is ultimately where what I call "Rube" comes from, that's one thing that it does.  I thought I would mention that the simple way of creating a "Living World" is to use what used to be called "Needs, Wants, & Desires" as the AI for the "living entities" within the world.  Modern gamers recognize this form of AI as "Will Wright's style".  So the "background living entities" of your "living world" have needs, wants, and desires.  Obviously, wants overrule desires and needs override both.  This very simple system, as you can see in Will Wright's games, work very well for being such a simple thing to do.  So, for example, an AI ship that is a part of SCO's living galaxy might have a desire to visit the casino in a nearby system, so it would go there... unless it had a want, or need, that superseded that mere desire.  Then it would ignore the desire to fulfill the want or need.  Maybe the ship is out of fuel, which is a need, so it instead gets fuel for the ship.  Then, assuming the desire to visit that casino has not expired, and no other wants or needs are active, it would go to the casino after getting the fuel.

Needs, Wants, & Desires, combined with Avalon Hill's phased turns as a structure for them to operate within, were an emerging science called "Scientific Modeling" in the mid-late 1970's.  This was abandoned when computers became ubiquitous but carried on in game design by a very tiny handful of people like myself and Will Wright.  This is the simple way of creating an AI for the "living entities" of a "living world".  You can look to Sim City or Spore for the basics of how this works.  It is very simple to implement and works very well for how simple it is.  This is also a first tiny little baby step towards what I call Rube;-)

@Rhonin_the_wizard

I'm not against scanning. I'm against a button for it that I have to press every time I'm visiting a planet. It's redundant and adds to a chore. Scanning should kick in automatically as you enter a planet's orbit.

I have to say, I agree with Xiaorai (above) - I never found going down to planets boring. The incredible thrill of finding a planet studded with valuables was - and still is - pavlovian for me. But if you're adding even more, along with the chance of finding crashed Precursor probes and such then that's even better. Awesome. I am so looking forward to this part of the game.

As for the starmap, why not abstract away the binary/trinary systems past a certain zoom level. Just show one star for those systems but have it slowly "pulse" and change between the two (or three) stars of that system (but only showing one at a time). So at a glance you'll be able to see which systems are single/binary/trinary but there's less clutter on the map. I'll also be interested to see how you manage them in-game - we have found systems where binary stars have planets that orbit in a large orbit around both stars (so both stars are tightly orbiting each other in the middle) and we have also found binary systems where each star has its own satellite planets. It's even mathematically/physically possible (although we haven't seen one yet) that a binary system would exist where a planet could be swapped from one tar to the other and back in a figure 8 which would not be stable in very long time frames, but which could well be stable for shorter periods (still multiple millions of years) which would be fascinating to see. See also horseshoe orbits for planets or moons - would love to see some examples of that in-game.

Love the aliens new looks and the new commander look, although her neck is still too long. You guys had said that was going to be changed, but I guess that's not happening now?

Edit: I agree with others that the "scan" option is pointless. Just ave it be automatic, please.

Also forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but is it still possible to access a beta of the actual star control game and not just the fleet battles? I remember mention of a discord channel and instructions being given on there but can't remember the specifics..

Adventure mode is not part of the beta, yet. I don't know when it will be.

over all im glad of the changes that you made.

For the record, scanning yourself added to the anticipation. It couldn't scan fast enough! But, I mean that in a good way, not like I wish it was sped up or done for me. Watching the wave roll across the planet and goodies (or nothing) pop up was a real trip, every.single.time. It was like opening a mystery chest at the end of a dungeon. You didn't know what you were gonna get, and when an energy node popped - OMFG. Shit's about to go DOWN.

As for the planetary landing? The fun is already there, Brad. Now that it's got a fresh coat of paint, it's even better. You don't need to *find* the fun. Make it as pretty and cool-looking as possible, with as many interesting (even text based) events, and you're golden. Write more later.

What does it mean - "scanning yourself"? Pressing the button? The whole anticipation thing happens during scan. The button only delays it for no reason.

No, it wasn't. It was painfully slow after the first 10 times and I had to press a button to get to the end of it and move on to the next planet. When was the last time you played SC2?

Scan idea:

1. Ship goes into orbit, planet screen pops up

2. Red scan line runs from top of the screen (over planet surface only) down scanning for minerals (0.5 sec)

3. Green scan line runs from bottom of the screen up scanning (0.5 sec)

4. White scan line runs from left to right scanning for energy sources (0.5 sec)

5. Planet info populates the sides of screen

6. You are prompted to pick your landing spot with LMB or leave with RMB.

The importance of commas... should have read, "Scanning, yourself". I feel like the act of doing something yourself, helps to create a feeling of ownership.

Same goes with flying through hyperspace - sure you could make it so that if you just click on your destination, your ship will travel there instantly, automatically. But there's a certain feeling to going through the motions of actually flying your ship there that makes it personal. 

Now, obviously, a scan button is just the tiniest thing ever. Whatever, either way. But it's sort of the same thing as having the mini game of flying down to the planet - or even choosing your landing spot. Surely, the computer is smart enough to mathematically pick the best, safest landing spot, right? Why let the player do it? It's an extra click, right? But the illusion of actually doing it yourself is what we're trying to preserve, I guess. 

I suppose I just don't have an aversion to the one extra click to scan all. And even the teensiest bit, it allows me to feel like I'm the one who did it.

Great idea for the look and feel, albeit with a button to start the scan.

 I agree 100% with the decisions you made, and will gladly wait a it longer for a much higher quality product!

@cuorebrave

Perhaps you should try UQM now and tell us at which point clicking Scan button becomes annoying.

I'm a special case, I'll give you that. I beat it for at least the 8th time 5 months ago. Still holds up. Not annoying. I merely consider it part of the process of running the ship. 

It's no more annoying than manually giving the commander your minerals every.single.time...is it?

It is. The analogy would be using your garage door opener vs pressing a button to get money on your account every 2 weeks. Two are not even in the same zip code.