Volusianus Volusianus

Solutions for Screenwrap

Solutions for Screenwrap

As you all know, I'm a huge defender of Star Control canon, both in terms of lore and mechanics. There are some elements of Star Control that are inalienable parts of the formula that make it great. However, I feel like Screenwrapping (ie the mechanic in which a ship leaves one side of the screen and appears on the other side relative to where they exited), is not only outdated, it's incredibly awkward mechanically.

I should note that I've been working on a Star Control/Space War-like ship combat game with a team, and I really REALLY wanted the screenwrap to work. I wanted it to be a thing, but we have the headache where we just can't make it FEEL good at all. Players end up disoriented more often than anything, and the tactics built around that just feel cheap. The wrapping planet also ended up feeling like we were watching an old Hanna-Barbera cartoon where the background is the same scene looping endlessly. A few of the solutions I'm proposing come from my personal work, others are being proposed in the SCO Discord atm.

What I plan on doing here is proposing alternatives, since it has already been confirmed by Brad that Classic Screenwrap is off the table for SC:O. This will be ordered from least FUNctional to most functional (imho).

  • A) (Current solution) Arena Leash: When ships are too far away from each other, they will be leashed to a specific distance from each other, regardless of either ship's speed.
    • Pros:
      • Allows for endless battlefields in theory.
      • Makes wrapping less visible.
    • Cons:
      • Ships with long or endless ranges will always have a MASSIVE advantage over ships with melee-mid range weapons. If a fast ship with long range (Looking at the Trickster) weaponry gets to a corner, the other ship has greatly diminished chances to win.
      • Feels very arbitrary.
      • The boundaries of the arena are tactile, which they should not be in space.
  • B  ) Fixed Arena: This solution would involve a finite amount of space in which to fight. If a ship leaves this area for longer than a certain amount of time, they push into hyperspace and forfeit. In SM (likely in Competitive play), this would mean that the ship is unavailable for the remainder of the battle. IE, you chose to leave, you can't just wuss out.
    • Pros:
      • Feels less arbitrary.
      • Boundaries are obvious and tangible.
      • Gives players incentive to stay within a reasonable distance of each other.
      • Easier to constrain the camera to include both players.
    • Cons:
      • Combat is no longer to the death.
      • Fast ships have to work harder to remain in the battle.
      • Battles will likely feel smaller.
      • Less space overall to work with.
      • Less comfortable to have more than one planet or other celestial body in.
  • C) Fixed Arena (Spacewar style): The same as above, except the entire battle is visible at all times.
    • Pros:
      • Boundaries are obvious and tangible
      • Camera issues are non-existent.
      • Leads to more tactical gameplay.
      • Easier to synchronize for netcode.
      • Makes local multiplayer easier to design around.
    • Cons:
      • Feels significantly less like Star Control.
      • Battles will feel even smaller.
      • You probably only want one celestial body with a gravity well at all.
  • D) Solo Camera: Plays exactly like Star Control with fixed Arena, except each player has their own camera. The other ship will be indicated off-screen with a ui element that includes orientation and current status. The player can then control zoom and angle however they want.
    • Pros:
      • Gives the player infinitely more agency over their game experience.
      • Battles can be as large as you want
      • Netcode for each client only has to worry about what's going on on their screen, which is then synchronized by the server (ideally).
      • Fit as many celestial bodies as you want in the battlefield.
    • Cons:
      • Feels even less like Star Control.
      • Battles could overwhelm newer players.
      • Makes for awkward local multiplayer without splitscreen (though that's an option) 
    • Alternatives: Local Multiplayer would play differently, with the battles being limited to the Spacewar-style Fixed Arenas.

 

TL;DR: Here's some suggestions for alternatives to screenwrap, since that's off the table.

95,231 views 94 replies
Reply #76 Top

Quoting Prof_Hari_Seldon, reply 74

If you are stuck with a ship slower than the enemy and they are running away, maybe you need a way to swap that ship for another in your arsenal.  Hitting the escape key and it takes a while to hyperspace out that ship.

That was exactly how you escaped a fight in the adventure game in SC2. However, I would be against it in SM, because it would lead to a bunch of situations where I have a ship that beats yours, so you retreat and swap for one more powerful against mine, so I retreat and pick a new one powerful against your new one, so you... and so on. The whole point of SM is that the ships aren't balanced against each other, the fleets are. Some ship A versus ship B matchups will be a pushover for A, and that's OK because B also trounces C, who also completely dominates D, who can easily beat A.

Reply #77 Top

Ok that's fine.

 

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 75

Are you even a real professor!!!

 

I'm a Masters student in Bioinformatics.  Next year I will be working towards a PhD.  I don't know if I want to go into academia (professor) or industry.

 

I usually just call myself Hari_Seldon but that was taken.

Reply #79 Top

Update:

The leash is dead.

Wrapping is dead.

You fight within a planet system now (think big arena).  We should have this rolled out to you guys...soon.

Early impressions are very positive.  A lot more strategy is now involved and maneuverability is a little more prized.

 

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Reply #80 Top

I was 100% against fighting in a solar system when that was the initial direction.  But that was also with screenwrap.  Let's see how it plays. 

Is planetary gravity in yet?  That will make a big difference.

Reply #81 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 79

You fight within a planet system now (think big arena)

Does that mean what I think it hopefully means? That there will not be just a planet to dodge and slingshot around (ala SC2) but actually a star in the middle and all the system's planets around it to weave and dodge around and through? Because if that's the case then it sounds fucking awesome!

Also, I was a little unhappy about the idea of an arbitrary fixed-size arena, but if it's a planetary system then it totally makes sense - you can't leave the arena because you would be passing into intersolar space.

Hey, I'm really liking this conceptually. Really looking forward to seeing it, @frogboy.

Reply #82 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 79

You fight within a planet system now (think big arena).

Hell yes it will be awesome!!! This could get waaay cooler in so many ways:

  1. Full asteroid belts that you need to blast your way through. Can act as a divider/shield between ships
  2. Moving planets around the sun! Comets and stuff too!
  3. Legitimate tactics of trying to herd your opponent into the sun.
  4. Even better, give me a grapple primary and gauss cannon secondary that launches the grappled object at high speed!

Seriously if we are looking at a solar system with a sun that can burn up our ship, we are going  to need a mini-map to know when we are getting too close.

 

Reply #83 Top

I don't understand why Stardock are so much against screen wrapping in light that most of the solutions do not have to be mutually exclusive!

No, seriously!

Most fighting games have a 'stage select' function. Why not have the same? One is fought around the planet - lo and behold, screen wrapping to simulate fighting in the vicinity of an orbit. Most of the instances already tried can be recycled: you're in deep space, no wrapping; if you're limited my radiation boundaries, you may be an some hazardous region of space.

Or a massive asteroid field.

Or fighting around, above, and into a gas giant!

A nebula where sensor visibility is reduced, halving the range of weapons?

Or an area filled with charged plasma clouds where if you cross through one, your battery gets supercharged up.

There could be plenty of new battle conditions mentioned here that could be employed to make combat venue a much more significant thing that it was before.

Not only could this liven up the universe in that battle locale can bear significant differences, but it can be a blessing to Super Melee. You could have games set to playing with the classic SC2 wrapping-planet during every battle, or you could have one that swaps venue randomly from fight to fight.

Another possibility could be that the player that died gets to pick a battle location. Trouble with an Earthling Cruiser? Choose a dense asteroid field and see how easy it is for the seeking nukes to hit you now?

Reply #84 Top

^ 'Cause like a lot of developers, they think the player has half a brain and needs to be taken care of. Or dev people responsible just don't like the mechanic.

Reply #85 Top

Brad said they did a lot of focus testing and the overwhelming response was that screenwrap SC2 style is confusing and too difficult to understand.  (before anyone craps on me, I 100% disagree and think screenwrap should be the choice but it's clear we aren't winning this fight so we need to find the least repulsive alternative.)

Reply #86 Top

I wonder if those focus testers even played SC2....

Reply #87 Top

They were definitely not a founders, that's for sure.

Reply #88 Top

It's not that screenwrap was confusing or difficult to understand in its original iteration in SC2, it's that Stardock's implementation of the same system was unintuitive in SCO's engine. I can only speak for myself, but there was no consistency in screenwrap warping in SCO compared to SC2/UQM/SC1. There were several other Founders that felt this way, but I'm not going to speak for them.

Reply #89 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 88

It's not that screenwrap was confusing or difficult to understand in its original iteration in SC2, it's that Stardock's implementation of the same system was unintuitive in SCO's engine. I can only speak for myself, but there was no consistency in screenwrap warping in SCO compared to SC2/UQM/SC1. There were several other Founders that felt this way, but I'm not going to speak for them.

Agreed. SCO's current incarnation with screenwrap was nonsensical at best. Downright disorienting at worst.

But, that's like saying a 4yo would cry about receiving a cake made of pickles for his birthday. "Huh. He must not like cake, then?" IT'S A PICKLE-CAKE. He would probably love a regular cake!

I highly doubt even one human would be confused if the screenwrap in SCO was implemented in the same, set way as Star Control II. It made sense, and you could count on and get a feel for when the screen would wrap.

Reply #90 Top

Screen Warp is life.

 

Just throwing it out there.

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Reply #92 Top

Brad's words on screenwrap from the Discord server

Alverez-10/15/2017

Re point 11. .there should be no leash. It feels awful. Screenwrap for life

Frogboy-10/15/2017

Not going to happen.
We had that.
I agree, SC2 had it, and it and I was fine with it.
 
But it was frustrating.
 
Our first iteration was exactly like SC2 and it was frustrating to people.

Alverez-10/15/2017

I wouldn't call the previous iteration screen wrap. It was more of a boundary violation random teleport

Frogboy-10/15/2017

except for th epeopl ewho were die hard SC2 people (like me)
You never played it.

Frogboy-10/15/2017

If this is an issue you want to solve, the way to do that will be to help me think of ways to solve the underlyinjg issue. For instance, what is the underlying issue that the turn-about barrier in SC2 was trying to solve.
A lot of people didn't like it.
 
Because it felt random and frustrating.
 
But enough people won't lik ethe current system that we can't ignore that.
So we need to find a solution to the underlying thing that the old Super melee was tryign to solve.
 

Alverez-10/15/2017

Srry on phone. Hard to make good pitches. Sc2 screen wrap was never confusing. And I'm not exact the sharpest

Frogboy-10/15/2017

Ok, other players are dumb.

Alverez-10/15/2017

Lol

Frogboy-10/15/2017

So we have to solve it for dumb people.
who also buy games.

Gildon-10/15/2017

To be clear Frogboy, did you mean that testers found SC2 wrapping confusing, or your implementation of it in Origins? those are two very different things

TheQCraft-10/15/2017

SC2 I believe
He was pretty clear about that

Marec-10/15/2017

I haven't tried the new method yet so I have no comparison to do

Frogboy-10/15/2017

They played Ur-Quan maters.
Look, move on dude.

 

Frogboy-10/16/2017

People don't like the abrupt camera changing.
It's very jarring to have the camera abruptly change lik ethat.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

I remember dodging Kohr-Ah spin-blades with the screen wrap
it was a challenge on its own

Frogboy-10/16/2017

As I said, we've already been through this.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

yeah, no problem
just old man rumbling here

Frogboy-10/16/2017

FOr the record, I didn't have a problem with it.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

well, it was about testers new to the series

Frogboy-10/16/2017

But I do know I was one who abused it when I played with my friends.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

so I assume only they had the problem

Frogboy-10/16/2017

Which usedto irritate them.
THey didn't have ahuge problem with it in single player.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

I doubt you could have won SC2 without good control

Frogboy-10/16/2017

But in multiplayer, the testers got very frustrated.

Bloody_Lemon-10/16/2017

huh
 

And if you don't believe it why not find someone who has never played SC and get them to try Super Melee in Ur-Quan Masters.

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Reply #93 Top

^ You're doing God's work, son.

Reply #94 Top

My favourite part of that is Brad calling the testers dumb.

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