Approval is seriously underwhelming and the effect it has on Population (Crusade 2.6)

(Playing Crusade with Terrans)

OK, I'm to the point where I'd like to start building cities.

However, approval is a HUGE problem here - there's not a lot of ways to get your approval up, and most of them are pretty terrible even if you do get them.

It's QUITE hard to keep even 1 additional city's worth of people happy (i.e. 75% or better approval), even with entertainers, approval relics, and approval improvements.  All of them provide far too little bump to the approval level, whereas it's trivial to get a city placed that gives 8 or more population bonus.

Also, it appears that the approval modules for starbases have vanished, and aren't available anymore.

How on earth (no pun intended) am I supposed to keep a world of 10 Billion happy, let alone one of 15 or 20?  I realize that super-population worlds can be game-breaking, so I expect the 25+ population planets should be very rare, but really, 10 billion ones should be pretty common once you're well into the Age of War.  Since population drives Raw Production and the overall value of the entire world, obviously a City should be significantly harder to build than several "specialty" improvements, but it's kinda ludicrously difficult to place a city now.

Right now, if I want a City on a planet, I have to dedicate AT LEAST 6 tiles to it:

  1. Bare minimum of 3 Farms triangular (this can be on any other planet, of course)
  2. An Approval Improvement
  3. Either another Approval Improvement, or a Ideology Improvement adjacent to the one above. Tile bonuses aren't enough by themselves.
  4. The City itself.

And, in the average case, this only keeps the City 75% happy, and costs a bare minimum of 217 production (double that if you're building a Ideology improvement).

Issues:

  1. Basically, Celebrities are only useful if you dedicate them to a planet (3% civilization wide is pathetically insufficient).  These folks need a serious buff:  I'd suggest a +5% per level bonus, so that it pays off to keep them long-term in your big population places. The +1% is for all intents and purposes completely irrelevant.  And I'd give them +10% if kept at the civilization level.
  2. Morale Relics also need a serious buff. Like maybe double or even triple their current bonus; getting one needs to make a significant impact, and they don't now, FAR less so than the other kinds of relics.
  3. Improvements have a much harder time, for several reasons: 
    • Not a lot of things provide an adjacency bonus to them - the Colony Capital doesn't anymore, and really only other Morale improvements or the Ideology Improvements do. At a minimum, I'd have most Influence improvements provide a +1 Morale adjacency (it's culture, and entertainment is a natural fit next to cultural buildings) bonus, and I'd seriously think about providing a +1 from the Colony Capital and maybe a +2 from a City - once again, logically, these are the places that you should be wanting to building entertainment facilities next to.
    • The "base bonus vs level bonus" for the Approval improvements is pretty broken. Right now, it's +1/level, and the base is either +1 (basic improvement) or +3 (top improvement).  Which is why - far, far, far more than any other improvement - Approval ones absolutely have to be put in place with level additions. Without levels, Approval improvements are not worth the tile they occupy.  This has to be fixed.  I'd suggest +2.5/0.3 and +4.5/0.5 as the values instead.
    • Morale tile bonuses are FAR less common that any other kind, by an order of magnitude.  That's made worse by the fact that MANY worlds have little in the way of adjacent tiles, and since the Morale improvements desperately require adjacency to be effective, that rules out a large number of worlds from having a city on them, ever.
    • Many Upper-level Morale improvements start costing resources, and tend to be one-per-planet.  I'm kinda OK with this, because it enforces resource desireability, but it can be really mean to civilizations that simply can't find or trade for it.
  4. A basic Morale module for Starbases is really necessary. Maybe it shouldn't be upgradeable (or very little), but I should at least be able to build a module that provides a +1 Morale Bonus on my Starbases with reasonable technology (say a mid-Age of War one like Population Diversion).
  5. There's very little tech that provides good Morale bonuses. I count TWO of the "pick 1 of 3" places in the entire Terran tech tree that provide Morale bonuses.  Whereas there's all sorts of places that Wealth, Production, and Research get bonuses.  There should be significantly more of these bonuses available via tech, and the easy thing to do is make them modest +X% ones, rather than straight +X ones.  I'd suggest at least 3 techs somewhere that give a +10% or +15% morale bonus.
  6. The On-Colonization event when a planet is first settled needs to have the bonus/penalty for Approval increased significantly. Really, a +5% or -5% is so trivially insignificant that it's a non-factor when deciding which ideology to pick.  Any Morale factor should be a bare minimum of + or - 25%, and there should be 50-100% ones not to rarely.

Once again, the whole point of this is to make it FAR less of a struggle to put cities around. Right now, Morale is so much more of a limiting factor to cities than Food is, that it's almost to the point where Farms are pointless because I can't put up a City and keep the people happy.

In fact, increased population should be the PRIMARY way to boost a world's productivity in the initial phases of the game, and better specialty improvements should only dominate in Mid-to-Late game. To whit, I'd suggest a two-stage housing improvement concept:

  1. A "Megapolis" improvement available as a early Age of War tech (say after Xeno Biology, but before Population Enhancement).
    • 120 build cost
    • 2 maintenance
    • +3 base Pop cap
    • +0.5 Pop cap per level
    • +1 adjacency to Pop
    • +2 adjacency to Wealth, Research, All Production, Influence, and Approval
  2. A new "City", available right after Planetology in a new tech (which, in addition should provide a +10% Morale bonus).
    • 67 build cost
    • 1 maintenance
    • +1 base Pop cap
    • +0.3 Pop cap/level
    • +1 adjacency for Wealth, Research, All Production, Influence, and Approval
    • City should upgrade to a Megapolis

 I'd look at the other tech-tree civs too, but I suspect the problem is the same (and really, Terrans should be one of the races that doesn't have much problem with high-pop worlds. Maybe not to the same extent as Torrians, but still...)

152,896 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top

Is it much different from 2.5? I still haven't had time to finish my last 2.5 game so I haven't even begun to check out 2.6...

Reply #2 Top

Do not build cities. Done, fixed. If you dont build cities and leave the population at the game start cap, its easy to keep all happy with an Intimidation center+entertainment center. The crushing reduction to happiness begins after you exceed that initial population limit. Suddenly you can have teeming planets and huge production but you also get immediate happiness issues. I rarely build cities for that reason and when I do I always put in a stadium+intimidation center and then maybe the neutral building as well. 

 

Trims: >>>by the way, I love your game input, thanks!!!  I do think that Celebrities should be 'reversed' in effect and give a stronger global happiness buff. 

Reply #3 Top

I've made a few 20-population planets, and manage to keep them happy with just two happiness buildings.  Of course I do have some good empire-wide boni as well.  It is a challenge, but certainly not impossible.

Leaders can be put into the Entertainer slot for a 6% increase, instead of 3%.  I don't use Entertainers (or the slots) very often though.

I believe nothing has changed in the Approval system for 2.6

Reply #4 Top

Alternatively, if you really hate the approval system, go synthetic.  Now you'll need Durantium to build pop, so that's an extra challenge (maybe), but you'll never have to worry about Approval.

Reply #5 Top

And at some point (I lost track of when) then Malevolent trait Eager was nerfed so that it now gives +.1 approval for each planet conquered instead of +1.  You could try the Slaver civ attribute.  Its Work Camp improvement provides +1 morale and +1 population.  Of course you lose access to the space elevator ...

Reply #6 Top

I think the pop bonus was taken out from the Work Camp in 2.6 - I haven't tried a slaver yet though so not sure.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting GrimmAG, reply 6

I think the pop bonus was taken out from the Work Camp in 2.6 - I haven't tried a slaver yet though so not sure.

The change log for 2.6 said it was taken out, but I started a new game under 2.6 as a slaver and it was still there.  I have not yet had a chance to check today's update.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Publius, reply 7

Quoting GrimmAG,

I think the pop bonus was taken out from the Work Camp in 2.6 - I haven't tried a slaver yet though so not sure.


The change log for 2.6 said it was taken out, but I started a new game under 2.6 as a slaver and it was still there.  I have not yet had a chance to check today's update.

It was taken out from adjacency bonus.

Reply #9 Top

ah, thank you

Reply #10 Top

Alternate option:


Play Benevolent and never need to build a single moral building until you get to 16+ population...  >.>   <.<

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Taslios, reply 10

Alternate option:


Play Benevolent and never need to build a single moral building until you get to 16+ population...  >.>   <.<

 

Umm, that bonus only works on your first 5 colonies.  In any decent sized map, you've got 10-20 colonies, and most of the better ones you want to have high pop on are NOT going to be the ones you settled first.  Not to mention it will only keep 8 population colonies happy.

Even the T5 bonus of +50% isn't very big if you have no morale buildings, it lets you have up to 5 happy citizens on a colony.

Sure, Benevolent can help you have a huge population homeworld. Other than that, though, it's only a very modest bonus and you're still stuck with an Approval problem on the vast majority of your empire.

Reply #12 Top

Feed those ungrateful bastards into the Death Furnaces! Ya'll clamoring for Socialist health policies? Yes ..yes we have them... step into this chamber with no exits or windows. Yes, just a moment please...

 

There Trims, your awesome Population 10 planet  is now 'Trims'd  down to a manageable and happier (if they know whats good for them) population of 3!! 

 

Because good is dumb................

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Reply #13 Top

 it somewhat depends on your race traits, if your content +1 or +2 and grab the supportive from economy research (+1 per colony), it isn't that hard to keep 2-3 cities happy. If your race is unhappy to start with however it becomes very difficult.

It does seem like either cities cost too much food, or farms don't produce enough tho. Or planets in general need to be 1-3 tiles bigger. I'd also like to see more adjacency with tourism and morale

Reply #14 Top

  Unless this was reverted in 2.6, you don't need to build the farms on the same planet. Find a world with a bonus to food production and build them all there.

Reply #15 Top

Honestly,   I've never had a problem keeping my people happy...      you just need to research the higher techs and have the needed upgrade resources...

the player should not be able to do everything.    This is a painful break that actually causes me to have to think about which techs I research when...  if the planet that is a quality 9 but has  a Snuggler nest or something   is actually better for my needs right now than the quality 15 planet that has nothing...

Charch however is very very right in stating the racial traits have a huge play in this.... an unhappy race is doooooomed to be a pain to play...