Alien Dialogue Thoughts

I'd like to preface this with: This is not an inflammatory post, just some casual observation about the current state of dialogue with aliens. I'm certain it's not finished, but would prefer to offer thoughts on the current-state, when it can be molded relatively easily, as opposed to when it's finished and set-in-stone (very hard to change, then).

I feel that there's a general lack of exposition in the current build of dialogue. I want you guys to have fun writing these conversations, so this is just some encouragement to head in a general direction of fully-fleshed-out characters. All Star Control races have, in the past, had one generally defining character trait, and *most* every line of dialogue is filled-to-overflowing with this character - including personality and extensive backstory on the race's history, rituals and colloquialisms.

Here's an example of a typical Ilwrath dialogue:

We Have Found Ultimate Pleasure In Your Cruel Service In These Alien Stars!
Though Our Enemy, The Thraddash, Possess A Tough And Chewy Exterior
Inside These Creatures Can Be Found A Most Smooth And Sweet Set Of Innards.
Their Low Bellows Of Fear And Agony Do Service To Your Names, Great Dogar And Kazon!
We Will Slay These Beasts In Your Name, Until They Are All Dead, Dead, DEAD!

Insatiable bloodlust, violence fuels their every word.

Here's an example of a typical Orz quote:

Here is bright and smooth. The other place is hurt Orz too much tired for keeping together.
Other place is Frumple. Orz are here now, but almost not yet.
Soon Orz are really here! You are help Orz with parties.
Orz looking for you, and find you. So much joy!!
Now smooth place all the time, and after now never going back to outside.
Never!!

Insanity? Or so completely foreign we have no clue what they're even talking about. Inexplicable, and very, very happy.

Here's an example of Zoq-Fot-Pik quote:

Attention, starship!
We are the Zoq-Fot-Pik.
        Make no hostile actions!
We come in peace, and with good will.
        But if you make one false move, you're vapor!
Don't worry, my companion is just a bit nervous
        No, I'm not!
and argumentative.
        No, I'm not.

Constant bickering of numbskulls and battling personalities. One wants to appear threatening, the other more down to earth, and the third? Completely silent.

Here's a typical quote from the Spathi:

 

Certainly, most gracious destroyer, as is well known, before departing this mortal helix
all Spathi must complete the short, poignant ritual of Wezzy-Wezzah to be assured of a secure afterlife
and by allowing us to fulfill this requirement, you too shall be granted immortality in our beautiful afterworld
which is absolutely guaranteed to be free of similarly immortal monsters who would otherwise eat the both of us.

 

They're utter cowards, and terrified of being eaten, but they also talk about their rituals to prepare for death, and speak of an afterlife NOT filled with monsters.

 

Here's a typical conversation with an ominous Urquan:

There is something wrong here... something which makes my sheath retract and my talons ooze.
I sense the ugliness of a thousand evil thoughts
and I have located the source of these fetid emanations.
They come from aboard your vessel!
Foolish renegade human, why have you come here? All that you have found is your inevitable punishment.

Imposing. Ominous. Authoritarian. Alien sheaths retracting and talons oozing.

The point of this summary: Every single line is infused with the alien's character traits. I swear, the Ilwrath don't say one single word that isn't in line with their race's disgusting, gods-praising, quivering, lust for violence.

 

Now, here's a typical line from our first meeting with the Tywom:

(This is not an exact quote) Tywom: Hey guys! The Scryve are the most powerful race in the galaxy, and they rule this sector. They sent a planet destroying missile at you! We accidentally told them you lived on the 4th planet from the sun. So, now you're alive!

Do you see the difference? That line is purely explicatory. Not expository. It serves to advance the plot with dialogue, rather than having fun with it. What needs to HAPPEN is this: Each race needs to pick a defining characteristic, and then just go balls-out with that for each encounter.

FOR EXAMPLE:

The Tywom are obviously, the stereotypical "nerds", to the extreme of them having earthly pocket-protectors! So why not infuse their dialogue with "nerdy" things??? If you're gonna make a stereotype nerd, you ought to infuse EVERYTHING with calculations, explanations, chemical theories and the like. Instead of saying, "Hey, they blew up Mars!" Say, "We put the odds of your survival at pi-rounded-to-the-thirteenth place, divided by z - so around .00015 %" Obviously better written than that... but infuse their character with that race's personality trait. Tell us the EXACT number of square meters the Scryve cover in this galaxy - instead of saying, "They cover most of this quadrant". And give them a bully-complex, too. Because that's stereotype nerds, too - the Scryve said they'd dunk our heads into the mouth of a black hole (swirly) or something. I don't know.

Really, the Tywom could easily have a different style dialogue altogether, to support their personality. An example of what I'm saying is something like:

Information: The Scryve caught wind of you guys in this solar system.
Hypothesis: They would come to the conclusion in 7.8 seconds that humans must be destroyed
Analysis: Humans could be a valuable ally to make the Scryve stop giving us blackhole-swirlies
Counter-analysis: The Scryve may not enjoy our efforts to trick them and have a 46,997,851 : 1 chance of obliterating our race
Conclusion: Tell the Scryve what homeworld the humans live on
Margin-of-error: π-to-the-second-place 3.14% chance of error
Result: THE HUMANS ARE STILL ALIVE?!? YOU ARE VERY LUCKY!

They could preface each decision they make (not every line, that could get boring), with a very scientific proposal, avoiding conjecture, about what they're speaking of. I read that in a book, The Boy On the Bridge, so not exactly that, but break up their dialogue into scientific hypotheses and conclusions based on reasoning and logic. That's their trait. That's what they built their civilization on. They should be EXCITED for scientific progress, their antennae constantly probing for new meaning in the universe. And then their lines could be based around that. Does that make sense?

I also want to hear about their homeworld, their culture, all of the rituals that give them meaning. I want to hear the challenges they overcame to get to the stars, their breakdown of how many years it took them to advance past certain problems (like light speed), I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts on death and their equivalent of the Spathi's Wezzy-Wezzah, and maybe the predators that bullied them for eons, before their advanced minds figured out ways to fend them off.

This, of course, would be fully-skippable for the players who just want to blow stuff up.

74,277 views 25 replies
Reply #1 Top

"Oh God...Please don't let me die today! Tomorrow would be so much better!" - Dravatz 241:368

Reply #2 Top

I could not agree more. Personality is a key component in the Star Control multiverse. I think we can all remember where we were when we first met Fwiffo! Now he is a great example of what can be accomplished through personalizing dialogue. I hope this post attracts more attention. 

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Reply #3 Top

Totally agree.

We actually haven't seen much of the dialog that isn't a placeholder..

so just stressing the point that although there are many other things that SC2 UQM did great, i hold a special place for the dialog and story. IMO the strongest of the games' many strengths. It was mentioned that not all of dialog was stellar. maybe not all of it... maybe it's just a matter of liking the style, and there were many styles.

Mass effect too had pretty crappy dialog in some places (counting all games in) still everyone remembers it for story and dialog because it worked as a whole and was simply great in all the right spots.

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Reply #4 Top

I haven't had a chance to see dialog in game yet, but I fully agree that the entirety of SC2 oozed with theme - none of the aliens talked "like humans would", they were has definable  traits and ways of speaking and that goes a long way towards the feel of the game.  Here's hoping this post is seen and absorbed!

Reply #5 Top

Yes, it was similar in a way to how trekkies have come up with actual Klingon and Romulan languages, except Star Control used "thematic English" instead of a fake foreign language.  The Orz is, of course, memorable to everyone and a great example.  But something about SC2 that has always stuck in my head was the Ilwrath.  I've always remembered how you could command them to say "warship" from now on whenever then meant to say "worship", and then they did for the rest of the game.  Things like that are what SC should be like.  Thematic English with some memorably plays on words, uses of words, etc.

The idea that immediately hits me, based on the Ilwrath Worship/Warship thing really, would be to have one of the races be like parrots in a way.  Over the course of the game, based on your responses too them, they gradually replace the original words they had used in earlier conversations with words you had "taught" them based on your earlier responses.  Then you just have to find the words within your story, or add them, that can change in a funny way.  Maybe you had asked them about "Mars" because it had blown up earlier in the game, and from then on they are confused and always refer to Earth as "Mars"... and by the end of the game what they would be saying would make no sense at all to anyone who hadn't followed the story up until that point, but you understand it all because you have gradually learned their "language" over the course of the game... kind of like the Orz.

 

Reply #6 Top

In the recent voice chat, it was mentioned that the story has been written for over 3 years. I agree with Coure, Story, dialogue and Flavor-text all are a substantial part of Star Control. 

I am looking forward to how the dialogue evolves. 

 

 

Reply #7 Top

What was the name of the guy from Cracked who was writing it?  Cuore's message needs to connect with *him* first and foremost!

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Reply #8 Top

Quoting Frungy_Party, reply 7

What was the name of the guy from Cracked who was writing it?  Cuore's message needs to connect with *him* first and foremost!

Chris Bucholz

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Reply #9 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 8


Quoting Frungy_Party,

What was the name of the guy from Cracked who was writing it?  Cuore's message needs to connect with *him* first and foremost!



Chris Bucholz

I talked to Chris on Discord! Really nice guy. It's funny, that, literally the same day I spoke to him through PM is *also* the same day he disappeared completely from the list of people we can talk to.................................................... uh.... whoops.

Reply #10 Top

Are we going to have to break out the punishment swatter of unchallenged pain for you cuore...?

 

Reply #11 Top

Quoting HenriHakl, reply 10

Are we going to have to break out the punishment swatter of unchallenged pain for you cuore...?

 

Oh man, you have no idea how much I'd enjoy that..............

Reply #12 Top

I really hope this post gets more attention too. Cuore hit the nail on the head with this one. I've seen the developer notes and what Brad and the others think are the essential elements of SC2, but for me SC2 has always been about the story more than anything. The story is what compelled me to wander around in hyperspace and shuttle from one place to the next. Without a captivating story, I couldn't have cared less what my landers picked up or how strong my fleet got etc. 

TBH, I might have been just as happy reading a book about the Ur-Quan/Kohr-Ah Doctrinal War as playing the game. And what made me fall in love with that world, that story, is the immense amount of character and uniqueness each of the aliens had. From the noble samurai-like Shofixti to the clannish space pirate Yehats to the evil clowny Umgah to the hilariously pious Utwix and the satanic fungi Mycon. I mean seriously how many other games come up with so many cool ideas for alien personalities?? And the personalities weren't just a decorative element to create diversity for diversity's sake. The choices the alien civilizations made in game were fully driven by their cultures and personalities! The Thraddash charging off to fight the Ilwrath, the Mycon seeding of the Syreen planets, the Kohr-Ah's relentless onslaught, pretty much all the major plot points hinged on the unique makeup of each of these aliens!! The yehat queen breaking free of the Ur-Quan battle thralls upon seeing their old vassals the shofixti. Every one of those momentous decisions were off the charts emotionally for me as a gamer and made me believe in that world. It made the aliens feel real. It wasn't like "Travel to planet Z to find object Y and bring back to alien X. OK now your relationship with Alien X has improved by +5." And then just dress it up in some cutesy language to try to disguise the bones of the quest structure. The coolest part about Star Control is that it just didn't work that way. Getting the Thraddash to fight the Ilwrath doesn't make any sense when following that sort of linear logic. In a numerical system, trying to get the Thraddash on your side would just be constant farming of quests to improve relations with one faction until they were allied with you, then you ask them to declare war on another faction blah blah. Half the magic of SC2 was how organic it all felt and how genuinely surprising the plot twists were. Which brings me to my next worry...

I'm worried about all this talk about mod tools and letting players create their own universes because let's get real not everyone is fking JK Rowling or Isaac Asimov. 99 out of 100 of the player created content are going to be hot trash. That's why there is such thing as professional game development studios. And that's why I am happy to pay them to make awesome games and stories, not to give us the tools to make our own stories.... I pray to god the focus is on the story and turning it into an epic one, creating one magical world that we want to keep coming back to. The last thing I want is an episodic sort of game which feels like just another DLC module, and then after 20 or so hours of blandness I'm left sitting here with nothing but a game engine and dozens of amateur poorly made free-LC's by other starcontrol fans. That doesn't sound like a passionate relaunch of the franchise, that sounds like a cynical attempt to fob off the responsibility of making a great game on the community. And then just pray one of the fans creates the next DOTA or something. 


Sorry, I don't mean to be negative. I am just a huge fan of the franchise and am desperately afraid that it doesn't get done right. I've played wayyyy too many sandbox type games where the focus is just on making the sandbox bigger and more interactive and hoping the "community" mods it into something worth playing. Sort of like how Bethesda's purchase of the Fallout franchise broke my heart. Their understanding of what "made" Fallout totally missed the mark in my opinion. And all we were left with is the window dressings of a Fallout game and none of the heart and soul of what made the franchise great. 

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Reply #13 Top

@Xiaorai - you actually hit on something that I tangentially have a pet peeve with. There is a tremendous desire in the industry to make everything first-person (Fallout 3+), or at least over-the-shoulder third-person (Dark Souls). In both cases I think the games would've benefited from being isometric. They can keep the underlying 3D engine; just present it in isometric perspective. If they want add rotating camera.

Clarity and control increases vastly - and once you're over the "oooaaaa" of in-person perspective, you'll find that you can add more detail and beauty to isometric style presentation and make combat and the like vastly more complex. (Diablo,  Divinity Original Sin, Dota)

Reply #14 Top

@Xiaorai  

I know what you mean, however a lot of good things can happen to the game if the tools are good. Just look at the many diverse and amazing ships that players created in Gal Civ III. Its simply beyond amazing to see the creative and artistic talent that can be brought to bear. 

Gal Civ has some of the best modding community I have seen in decades. Many of these folks create entire races (with thier own ships!) and that was before many of the tools they have now were available. We also have a good following of Civ6 modders and Xcom2 modders here. With all that said I think we should not be too hasty to write off the ability of the modding community to improve what will likely be an already amazing game. 

 

/cheers!

Reply #15 Top

I'm fine with modding being available, as long as the original game is there as well.  Imagine if after playing through the entire story of SC2 you got to create some alien races and ships of your own!  Sure, there will be some people that create nothing better than SCnot3, but having all of that extra to mess around with if you want wouldn't change the fact that the original game was awesome.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting HenriHakl, reply 13

@Xiaorai - you actually hit on something that I tangentially have a pet peeve with. There is a tremendous desire in the industry to make everything first-person (Fallout 3+), or at least over-the-shoulder third-person (Dark Souls). In both cases I think the games would've benefited from being isometric. They can keep the underlying 3D engine; just present it in isometric perspective. If they want add rotating camera.

Clarity and control increases vastly - and once you're over the "oooaaaa" of in-person perspective, you'll find that you can add more detail and beauty to isometric style presentation and make combat and the like vastly more complex. (Diablo,  Divinity Original Sin, Dota)

I better not touch this one other than to say... ditto.

;-)

 

Reply #17 Top

I agree that mod tools could lead to great things from the community. I am just afraid the focus becomes the mod tools and the engine and not the story itself. 

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Reply #18 Top

@Xiaorai - You are so correct. I feel like Fallout 4 fell into this trap, making a million tools for building. Forgot they still needed to make a compelling game around it...

Reply #19 Top

^ It's all those Minecraft freaks...

Reply #20 Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 18

@Xiaorai - You are so correct. I feel like Fallout 4 fell into this trap, making a million tools for building. Forgot they still needed to make a compelling game around it...

I think this is a product of an age-old issue in game design.  A game is always much farther away from being finished than you imagine it too be.  If you think you are 50%, then you are probably actually only 25% done.  This leads most people who try to make games to wind up just tossing out lots of what they had meant to do, or re-designing it in the middle of the process to make the finish line seem closer.

In the world of computer games I had noticed long ago, exactly what you are saying here, that computer game makers use tools and modability to avoid having to make the game.  The finish line of what they are imagining seems so far away, or in the back of their mind they know they can't really do what they have been saying they can do all along, so instead they wind up creating the tools, modability, and editors that they could use to make the game that they imagine.  But they can't actually make the game they are imagining.  And they never could.  But if they provide what they thought were the tools they would have needed to do it, then they can imagine that the player will make the game they have been dreaming of for them.

I think a lot of this goes on in the computer game industry and, really, in the end it means that they are in the wrong line of work.  They can't really make games.  They can just make tools to make the game that they envision, so they do that instead.  It is essentially faking it, and never actually making a game... because in reality you can't.

I am not saying this to be a jerk, or put anyone down.  I think it is a psychological thing that happens based on the ancient... "The game is always twice as far away from being finished as you think it is" saying.

Luckily, Brad has proven many times in the past that he actually knows how to finish a game, so I don't see that as being a big issue here.  But this seems to happen a lot in the computer game industry.

 

Reply #21 Top

A simulation engineer and a game designer were having a debate on the forums about game design.

The simulation engineer said, " A game is always much farther away from being finished than you imagine it too be.  If you think you are 50%, then you are probably actually only 25% done.  ...  It is essentially faking it, and never actually making a game... because in reality you can't. ... I think it is a psychological thing that happens based on the ancient... 'The game is always twice as far away from being finished as you think it is' saying."

The game designer nodded and listened. While the simulation engineer went on and on and on, the game designer diligently kept working on his project. 

After many long months of this, the simulation engineer had generated a wall of text that blotted out the sun. He could never get to the end of his point, because, like the famed Zeno's paradox he tried to reference, he would always find that he was halfway to his point.

Meanwhile, the game designer "essentially faked it", producing a trendy game-that-is-not-a-game, played by gamers-that-are-not-real-gamers, and made money-that-was-not-real-money.

The end.

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Reply #22 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 20

I think a lot of this goes on in the computer game industry and, really, in the end it means that they are in the wrong line of work.  They can't really make games.  They can just make tools to make the game that they envision, so they do that instead.  It is essentially faking it, and never actually making a game... because in reality you can't.

i get your point. but i don't think your observation of the industry is true. maybe to some degree.. 

condider this:

I'm a software dev, not a game dev. but we do  share something in common, in that our ultimate goal is for people to actually use our products. a software that isn't used is dead. and so we never put out our full vision out there on day one. the first version is always a prototype and user interaction not only brings it to life, it also shapes and changes the direction of the vision. 

if you were to tell me that you have a fully realised and complete vision, that is just sitting in the world with no one using it, then I'd say it's inherently dead. 

going back to the fallout 4 example.. People criticise it not because it's not finished, but because it doesn't fit their own vision of a fallout game (while others actually praise it). saying that the people behind it don't have a clue about game design is misguided at best. it was excellent in what it set out to do, and it still has a huge player base. The devs can move on to other projects with the experience gained and perhaps make something better. they could not have done that if the game would have forever remained in an abstract form.

 

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Reply #23 Top

I wasn't necessarily referring to Fallout 4.  I haven't actually played that so I wouldn't know.  But I have seen games like that before, where they just never really made a game and left it up to the players to finish it for them with tools.  I have a reputation for criticizing the modern game industry, but that doesn't mean that I think they are all idiots.

MicroProse, Looking Glass, early Blizzard, Stardock... There are plenty of computer game developers that I think made games every bit as well as everyone except SVC did.  SVC is just a special case in my mind, and for my personal tastes.  Like how many people would say that Jimmy Hendrix was in a class by himself.  There have been at least a dozen truly great computer game developers it I really thought about it for a while.  But, on the other hand...

I've been told my whole life how serious it all is, how expensive it is, oh... the "risk".  My most harsh critizisms are almost always based on that, and the many many games that get made that appear to be made by monkeys.  And then the "we'd never consider you, you've only been doing this for 30 years.  But this 22-year-old who just graduated from the Devry School of Game Design... He looks great to us.  No risk there!"

I didn't actually speak out until experiencing those types of things for over 20 years.  But after 20 years, that starts to actually enrage you.  "Pirate Lord" is dead, and he isn't coming back;-)

I don't think they are all incompetent, I think 60-80% of them are.  The designers.  The programmers and artists are almost invariably among the best in the world at what they do.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 23

I've been told my whole life how serious it all is, how expensive it is, oh... the "risk".  My most harsh critizisms are almost always based on that, and the many many games that get made that appear to be made by monkeys.  And then the "we'd never consider you, you've only been doing this for 30 years.  But this 22-year-old who just graduated from the Devry School of Game Design... He looks great to us.  No risk there!"

I don't mean any disrespect (I don't know your credentials) - what games do you have under your name? Games that exist and you believe the gaming industry (incompetent or not) would consider worthwhile.

Reply #25 Top

That is a very long answer, haha...  Much to long give here.  I have two blogs that explain that.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MarcMichalik/787769/

https://www.gamedev.net/blogs/blog/2315-pirate-dawn-universe/

 

I had actually come back to this thread because my last post here made me think of something I wanted to mention.  SVC has a lot of great quotes about game design over the years.  The one that has always stuck in my mind the most is...

"You always have to leave the player the option of making a mistake."

A good example of this for this audience would be from the "Space Hockey on a pinball machine table" I had been wanting to see in mutliplayer.  In that I would make the "bumpers" spit out 6-8  crew units when you hit them.  This would be the only means of restoring health.  When you did this, you would only pick up 1-3 of them as you bounced back off the bumper.  In Space Hockey you need to stay in the action, so stoping to pick up more of them would be a mistake.  A mistake that the player is being enticed into staying there to make.  This type of thing always makes games better.

So, wherever this type of thing naturally fits into the game you are making, you should always do it.  Forcing it can be bad, but wherever it is natural it is always a good thing.  So if you keep one of SVC's most profound statements about game design in mind, SCO will wind up being a better game for it.  Any game will be better...

"You always have to leave the player the option of making a mistake."