BRING BACK HYPERSPACE.

1. It's where I met most of my aliens.

2. It's where ALL the exploration "candy" (star systems) was.

3. It's where the danger loomed for the first half of the game. Should I let that dark vortex to catch up to me or not...

4. It felt like legit space travel.

5. It can be greatly improved on with hyperspace "terrain" and random contextual events (don't have to be upon release). Galactic Hyperspace Radio?!

6. Have a hyperspace engine upgrade where your speed increases exponentially as you hold "gas pedal" to decrease travel times later in game if somebody is bored.

7. It will not feel like Star Control without "physical" interstellar travel. It is an unalienable part of Star Control atmosphere, mood and tradition!!

 

MAKE SPACE TRAVEL GREAT AGAIN!!!

60,357 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

I kind of have to agree. Brad, can you tell us what you replaced it with?

Reply #2 Top

I agree. Without reiterating too much of what was said on discord, Hyperspace was part of what made the galaxy feel so huge. It doesn't matter if you can only see a little bit of it at a time. The fact that the star on the opposite side of the galaxy might take up to 30 minutes to reach versus the one right next to you taking a few seconds adds depth and breadth to the galaxy, and breathes life into that vast emptiness of the starmap. It gives it relevance. 

If you're going to write it off completely, then please, tell us what you tried to do with it to make it more exciting. If the answer is nothing, I feel like that's lazy and disingenuous. Let us at least have the chance to try it and agree with you.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 2

Let us at least have the chance to try it and agree with you

Especially as it was already in the game and has now been removed..? It must have been replaced with something pretty good to take out something they had already spent effort on making. That gives me some hope...

Reply #4 Top

I don't really mind that it was axed. I'm not going to crusade to keep it out if you guys manage to sway Brad into keeping it in.

To me, it means more facetime with Aliens (yay) and less time going back and forth between my base and whatever planet I was harvesting (bigger yay).

If I have any reservations, it is that I won't be able to avoid alien confrontation with my mad piloting skills.

 

Reply #5 Top

The main question is with what was it replaced?

Anyway, SC3 "click to go to destination" was surely not more fun.

Nothing wrong with hyperspace autopilot while listening most awesome tune in the game. It was not boring, but great intermission between planet exploration.

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Reply #6 Top

SC1 had a 3d map with instant star to star travel.  But I liked SC2's traveling system better, I agree, I'd like to experience Brad's "Murdered" hyperspace mechanic before resorting to perpetual teleportation which 'makes lite of the vastness of space.' The opposite of Brad's argument.  So, I expect some other mechanic besides teleportation is on his mind, or he's just really confusing to read.

Reply #7 Top

I posted this in the game chit-chat as well, but I need to post this here for perpetuity, after reading you're tossing out Hyperspace entirely, all willy-nilly...

Please don't. 

Why? WHY? I heard your arguments for "why", but I don't think it's being thought-through how easy it is to circumvent these "negative steam reviews". Allow me to explain:

There is one key thing controls-wise, that sets Star Control apart from the rest of the pack of space games. One very important, albeit subtle thing:

Direct control of your ship, at all times.

You control it when navigating a solar system. You control it when landing on a planet. You control it when fighting in combat. And yes, you're even controlling your one, tiny ship, directly out into the unknown - a vast galaxy that you physically PILOT your ship out into... the unknown.

You CAN autopilot your ship to the next star, but you don't HAVE to. You even can swing around when being pursued and have a LEGITIMATE chance to escape danger through your own hands.

You have OWNERSHIP of that ship.

You LIVE on it.

You DIE on it.

But you never EVER leave it. Even one time.

You're not some floating, all-seeing Overlord in the game, moving pieces around the galaxy map like in GalCiv or Stellaris or Sins of a Solar Empire.

You're smaller than that. You're TINY. And you live inside a ship, metal separating you from the vast and unholy dangers of the universe.

There's a real feeling there. There's a feeling that you only know what you can see. Not some master of the universe that simply clicks where on the Starmap your ship should go, and POP, it goes there no problem.

There's this feeling that you are physically inside this ship you're navigating through the Wilds, and that feeling comes from the fact that you are NEVER anywhere but on your bridge. And you will absolutely die, inside that ship.

IF you take that away, make you some master race overlord that sees the galaxy as a whole who can just click on the star he wants to go to - that vulnerability goes away. You're all of a sudden NOT piloting your ship... you're directing it where to go from the comfort of your home, far, far away from danger.

It takes control away from the player. It takes immersion away. You're no longer an explorer circumnavigating the galaxy at the forefront of your expedition...

You're a colonel in his war-room, telling drones to go out and do the exploring for you.

We absolutely MUST have full control of our ship, exactly when we want and need it - be it to run away from an incoming badguy, exploring a black hole that popped up in the middle of nowhere that's not on the starmap, or even going to a Red giant star, but upon arriving, realizing there's a White Dwarf star hiding right next to it that the Starmap didn't show clearly.

That way - you're giving the credit and reward to the PLAYER, for being in control and escaping danger, or finding the unknown.

That feeling... that beautiful feeling where YOU'VE succeeded when others may not have...

You're stealing it from the player, by not putting them directly in control.

So let's go over some of the issues you had with Hyperspace, and how they could be fixed very easily.

1) "Hyperspace is not fun. It's just waiting and music."

1A) Let's look at a few games that include some sort of "waiting" in them. Think outside the box here for a minute - For example, Minecraft. The game almost entirely consists of digging at blocks. Dirt takes a swing or two, and you get a relatively useless block. Stone takes maybe ten strikes, and a good amount of time... but leads to better weapons and a better pickaxe. Iron takes twice as long, and just looking at it, twenty swings is literally just adding wait-time to the block-mining. God, so annoying, some people might say. But get down to diamond? You've gotta swing like 50x just to mine a single diamond block, what's the point? The point is - the discovery of the block and the wait-time to mine it only serves to INCREASE the player's delight at finally getting a diamond block. It adds importance to it. Increases your feeling of achievement that you got this special block. You feel a little pride at the end. And sure it took 50 swings, but next time you'll come back with a diamond pickaxe and it'll take 10 swings. You've achieved something. Terraria was the same way. But, under your belief that waiting is bad, maybe Minecraft should make all blocks one-swing and they're yours (a la creative-mode - which is the least rewarding mode you can play. People play creative mode for other reasons and with other motives). But I'm pretty sure 130,000,000 people agree that Minecraft got the formula right.

1B) Another example would be Skyrim, if we're going for more direct comparison. You're arguing, in no uncertain terms, that ALL map waypoints in Skyrim should be revealed from the start, and can be fast travelled to instantly from your first step into the world. Sure, there's not much to do along the way, while you're headed for a dungeon... some scenery, maybe a box or two of 7 gold coins, or an old rusty sword. An enemy or 3 to fight. But really, you're just travelling to the dungeon you want, and the walking to get there is "pointless" because there's not much around on the way except other locations.... But that's NOT it. The point and reason why Skyrim doesn't let you fast-travel anywhere from the get-go is because you're a living, breathing person in that world, and you're going to need to walk the cliffside path if you're going somewhere. It's immersive because you CAN'T just make a disembodied float into the unknown - you must explore it first. You're at the head of your own personal expedition, and it may seem useless, but that journey IS the experience, with the dungeon loot as your reward at the end. I remember thinking briefly, "Ugh, it's taking me so long to hoof it to the top of this mountain..." but I wouldn't trade that hike in for anything in the world. Because it wouldn't be ME heading to that dungeon if I could skip all those parts.

1C) I remember playing World of Warcraft in the early days, and lamenting about all the pointedly-coined "trash mobs" between bosses. I wasn't alone.  They're called trash mobs for a reason, lol... but what was the alternate? I remember one of the developers stating at the time - "Did you want us to just put four rooms per instance? One boss in each room?" It wasn't to WASTE your time. It was the buildup. The feeling you get when clearing a room, moving onto the next, and finally after several tough battles, taking him down? IT was all part of the experience. You're essentially proposing the same thing - only the interesting parts (bosses, in this example) should be included, and none of the journey along the way.

2) "It takes too long to get places."

2A) So what do we do about it? If it's the length of time you have to wait when travelling, just speed up the ship travel speed. That's simple. You're in control of that. Or better yet, let the PLAYER achieve things in-game that let HIM increase his travel speed. Discover a warp drive or hyperlane drive that lets you travel to systems you've made the connection with, instantly. And maybe eventually, you get a Psychic drive that lets you astrally project your ships to any location you have enough fuel for. There's many ways to ACHIEVE that faster travel speed. If it's an archaic system that should be replaced by something - incorporate modern fast-travel if you must. No one will argue with you too much, or leave a bad Steam review about that. Make them visit manually ONCE, and then to include modern short-attention-span audiences, let them travel back to the places they visited instantly. Done. But that will also PRESERVE the idea/fear that you're a HUMAN, non-omniscient being, heading out into the galaxy in a metal container.

3) "If a person goes out too far and runs out of fuel? Bad Steam review."

3A) Warn them. If they set out and pick a point on the map that's too far for a return trip, a pop-up box full informing them of this would be enough. But take it a step further - if landing on the planet costs fuel, BEFORE they cross that line into not being able to return home, BEFORE they land on a planet that will dip them below the 30 fuel needed to get back, an advisor could pop up and say, "If we go down to the planet, we won't have enough fuel to get back to base." And if you're really guarding against that - JUST DON'T LET THEM. The advisor could put her foot down and say, "Captain, we don't have the fuel for this. We need to make the return trip." And if you're REALLY looking for a solution that would NEVER allow anyone to ever get stranded? Include a wormhole generator that always lets the player return to your home base when you're done exploring. See? Take out the return trip ENTIRELY. Home button simply returns you to earth orbit. Cue cutscene of the wormhole starting up.

4) "There's nothing to do in Hyperspace without increasing scope."

4A) That's simply not true. It doesn't have to be an entirely new part of the game. Just make some systems not detectable on the Starmap. Make some systems only pop up within range. Make some systems hiding in the shadow of a much larger star. Make a system's entrance so tiny you have to manually thread a needle. Make a system only appear during certain days or months. Make a system that doesn't appear until you have a special scanner! Make a system that's only reachable with a certain technology. This is not adding anything to the game. It's using assets and mechanics already implemented to just make it a tish more exciting. And there's always the INCREDIBLY exciting and nail-biting case of avoiding and outrunning an enemy who was coming RIGHT for you. I'm being honest, and I think some others will agree - some of the most TERRIFYING and bone-crushingly tense moments were spent avoiding nasty ships manually, as they're coming for you. When you outrun them and get successfully make it to a safe system? It was devastatingly suspenseful, with an incredibly fun and unique outcome.

See? Easy-peasy.

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Reply #8 Top

Let's talk about Hyperspace for a second.

Hyperspace still exists, nothing has changed there.

What I want to change is the screen where you're flying in a colored hue.

What I'd like to see is something more like Star Control 1.  You see the galaxy and can navigate through it but when you travel between systems you're traveling on a galactic map that you can zoom in and out of (I suppose, technically, if you zoomed in close enough it would seem like the old Hyperspace).

I find the Star Control 2/Origins Hyperspace experience a bit clausterphobic.  

I'd rather see Hyperspace protrayed more like this:

What I will say is this:

On this and every other game facet, if the consensus of the Founders on an implemented feature is that it's bad, I'm inclined to change it.  All I ask is that you try out what I have in mind first and if you still don't like it, we can revisit it.

 

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Reply #9 Top

I will miss the exploration aspect.  And as IBN pointed out dodging hyperspace encounters.  Having to pray to RNGesus each time I travel isn't a thing that I consider fun.

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Reply #10 Top

 

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 7

4) "There's nothing to do in Hyperspace without increasing scope."

4A) That's simply not true. It doesn't have to be an entirely new part of the game. Just make some systems not detectable on the Starmap. Make some systems only pop up within range. Make some systems hiding in the shadow of a much larger star. Make a system's entrance so tiny you have to manually thread a needle. Make a system only appear during certain days or months. Make a system that doesn't appear until you have a special scanner! Make a system that's only reachable with a certain technology. This is not adding anything to the game. It's using assets and mechanics already implemented to just make it a tish more exciting. And there's always the INCREDIBLY exciting and nail-biting case of avoiding and outrunning an enemy who was coming RIGHT for you. I'm being honest, and I think some others will agree - some of the most TERRIFYING and bone-crushingly tense moments were spent avoiding nasty ships manually, as they're coming for you. When you outrun them and get successfully make it to a safe system? It was devastatingly suspenseful, with an incredibly fun and unique outcome.

See? Easy-peasy.

You just proved his point here.

Scope creep (also called requirement creep, function creep, feature creep, or kitchen sink syndrome) in project management refers to changes, continuous or uncontrolled growth in a project’s scope, at any point after the project begins. This can occur when the scope of a project is not properly defined, documented, or controlled. It is generally considered harmful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep

You should instead try to convince him that a scope increase is warranted.

 

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Alverez, reply 9

I will miss the exploration aspect.  And as IBN pointed out dodging hyperspace encounters.  Having to pray to RNGesus each time I travel isn't a thing that I consider fun.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 8

What I'd like to see is something more like Star Control 1.  You see the galaxy and can navigate through it but when you travel between systems you're traveling on a galactic map that you can zoom in and out of (I suppose, technically, if you zoomed in close enough it would seem like the old Hyperspace).

Merging these two together... 

Set the system up ala SC1/Indiana Jones. When an alien approaches your ship, zoom in and give us an evasion mini-game in the spirit of SC2 hyperspace. Once the alien encounter is avoided, zoom back out.

 

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Reply #12 Top

Civ 6 & E:WOM map is the perfect way to make hyperspace exploration as a game mechanic viable. You can start with a futuristic looking star map where you only have Sol vicinity revealed/updated and you have to physically travel to new stars. What if Alpha Centauri is no more just like Mars? Wouldn't it be cool to surprise yourself by flying over to it finding it in ruins and space dust?.. Map gets auto-updated.

Distress signal is received from an unrevealed area on your map - the game circles the area and you're off to explore it to complete the quest. It's gonna feel like opening X-mas presents every time!

By removing HS travel you're removing a part of exploration wonder. And while MEA handles it by adding a feckton of planet exploration, SCO's planet exploration doesn't look remotely appealing at this point. Also, why not remove interplanetary travel as well? Isn't it the same type of time waste/boring stuff? And while at it - why not make the planets "scrollable", so we could just click on the resources to collect. Why is there a lander? We can just nuke the bad guys from orbit. Am I making sense here?

In MEA I don't always want to talk to characters. In fact, I get bored talking to wankers for more than 15 minutes. I feel relieved to just travel to the next encounter point after all the convos, enjoy nice scenic view and listen to Peebee taking jabs at Cora. Then shoot baddies and shamelessly take their valuable possessions. In F3 and F4 I really enjoyed listening to radio host updating wasteland on my "progress" like when I helped or killed somebody. That made that universe alive and kept the right mood going.

Reply #13 Top

Anyone on discord can go in and see a video where Frogboy is discussing hyperspace.

 

And it's converted me. I fully agree with him and his points. It's not about just magically warping to a new system, it's basically like just zooming out further and seeing the starmap but you're flying in it (moving towards your mouse or whatever) and you can see the systems, maybe other ships, anomalies etc. MUCH better than the boring red screen of SC2's hyperspace with just black swirly holes to fall into. MUCH better.

I have seen the light!

Sorry I doubted you, Frogboy!

Reply #14 Top

I don't FULLY agree, I still want to have the ability to take over manual control, however...

A response to Brad's discussion of Hyperspace. The initial explanation of removing Hyperspace completely, was apparently confounding to us. I feel like, I don't know, maybe he was trolling us to gauge the reaction, when stating "I murdered Hyperspace"! Or maybe he was just being blunt and honest by explaining it that way, but it was really, really confusing for most people. I actually don't think anyone on here got what he REALLY meant, or what that would mean in its eventual implementation.

He didn't actually "kill" Hyperspace.

He just killed the fixed-zoom, very close-up, bland, reddish version of Hyperspace from Star Control II. But if we're really paying attention - SCII Hyperspace didn't work the way he showed in the video that was just uploaded either - In SCII, the moment you left a system, it immediately brought you to the Space Map. SCO Hyperspace appears to just boot you from the system, and kick you into zoomed-in, local Hyperspace. I don't think anyone wanted, or expected that anyway! We expected to leave a system and get an immediate view of the galaxy - and from what I now understand, he plans to give us that. Leave a system -> Go to Space Map view. This is good! This is normal. This is Star Control.

Now when we get to the differences between SCO Hyperspace and SCII Hyperspace, the divide comes with the way you get to the next star, right? But, when you get right down do it - MOST of the time, you chose a star, and autopilot brought you there without your input. There were just SOME times where you took direct control... and the existence of being able to take control is what gave it that legitimate space-travel, physical feel. When you needed to, you simply pressed a button to give yourself manual control.

This new Hyperspace doesn't seem to be much different from the original, does it? You're still going to click on the system you want to travel to, and auto-pilot is going to take you there - which is 98% of the trips through Hyperspace, to a tee. That's actually LESS like "murdering Hyperspace" and more like giving the EXACT SAME SYSTEM a fresh coat of paint. 

1) You leave a system

2) You get a galaxy view

3) You choose the star you want to travel to

4)  Auto-pilot takes you there

This change is pretty much... not... at all objectionable. I guess the only thing that would make me happier is if, per chance, you're confronted with an enemy wormhole bubble, or you simply WANT to look around local space, you could press a button to take direct control. Doesn't that make sense? To implement it partially?

Reply #15 Top

The whole idea of "hyperspace" is that it is "contracted space".  It's "smaller" than "normal space" so you can get around faster.  I don't know what the discussion is other than what I just read here, but if hyperspace seems boring just make it smaller.  Make getting from one planet to another a very short trip.  Sometimes there is an encounter in between systems.  If the issue is that it is a longer and boring trip just, essentially, increase the magnification of the map until the trips are the right length to not be annoying.

Maybe they have a better idea they have decided to go with, but if the issue is just that it is boring flying between stars for too long then understand what hyperspace is and just shrink the hyperspace map so the trip between planets is shorter.

EDIT: Hadn't noticed the second page of posts at first.  Brad seems to be saying that he just wants to make the view area bigger, so you see a bigger area around you.  I think that's a great idea.  Everything was pretty highly zoomed in in SC because of the low resolution graphics.  I'd rather see a larger area of hyperspace when travelling through it than you did in SC2, that sounds like an improvement too me.

Reply #16 Top

Why not do hyperspace like Star Trek Online style hyperspace. Where you can move around from system to system and have your bubbles come at you when in hyperspace style space.

Reply #17 Top

Watched the discord vid.

I see now that the only thing that gets butchered is manual control and hyperspace enviro gets hybridized with the galaxy map. If there are no immediate plans on hyperspace manual control mini-games then I guess we don't entirely need it at this point?.... I really liked what I heard about aiming to have hyperspace map feeling alive with patrolling ships and w/e (hope for more stuff to be in). That should be definitely expanded on. The SC2 HS level of zoom never appealed to me. Definitely needs more zoomed out HS view. And, please, let us unravel the map as we travel.

 

And Kavik's right. No matter if SCO ends up having a manual control in HS or not, the HS map better be scaled appropriately. Seemingly short distances in F4 locations (as opposed to F3) worked out great. It could even be optimized with both, map size & ship speed ways.

 

False alarm, minions! All is good in hood. Back to your daily chores. XD

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Reply #18 Top

Well, look at that Brad! You won everybody over, including myself - at the very least, to give it a shot! Nicely done!

But uh... maybe we can work on how to present these changes to us in the future??? So we don't have a collective fit? :P hahaha

Reply #19 Top

Nice! I also thought the hyperspace was totally axed which left me with mixed feelings. This is definitely better. I only hope we have some sort of manual control like many others, but I can understand if that's difficult to implement with a 2d control system on a 3d map.

Reply #20 Top

So I am not a game pad kinda guy. Will we still be able to play..and play well using keyboard n mouse?

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 20

So I am not a game pad kinda guy. Will we still be able to play..and play well using keyboard n mouse?

You will be able to play with a keyboard and mouse. But the nature of the control scheme means that controller users will be top-tier. This is because keyboards aren't analog and mice aren't as good as an analog stick at representing 360 degree direction input.

 

(And I promise I will be hard on Stardock when they finally unveil their controller setup. I plan on pushing them as far as I can to make sure they nail it.)

Reply #22 Top

In both SC and Subspace the keyboard and gamepad were "equal but different" control methods.  There are things you can do on a gamepad that you can't do with a keyboard, and there are things you can do with the keyboard that you can't do with a gamepad.  I use a gamepad, and have a sort of "signature move" that I use a lot that I call the "Reverse Double Disengage" (Yes... I used to be into fencing and this is a play on a fencing term).  You can't do it using a keyboard, but it is a natural thing I had seen others do as well in Subspace if you are using a gamepad.

In Subspace, the two best duelers were widely considered to be my brother Indra and a guy named Mushroom.  Indra used a gamepad, Mushroom played with the keyboard.  If the similar past game are any indication, keyboard and gamepad are "equal but different" control methods that come down to a style preference.  This had been something of a long settled issue among the Subspace community.

A mouse or joystick is useless for flight control, I'm sure there will be mouse support for menus... but you can't fly with a mouse.  At least not if you want to have any chance against someone using a keyboard or gamepad;-)