Tech Snowballing

I have an idea to reduce tech snowballing, to prevent smaller empires from falling too far behind in the tech race, and to benefit civilizations  that choose a 'vertical' strategy: 

==> Divide a civilization's research points by the square root of the number of planets in its empire

Here is a simplified example:

Assume there are three major civilizations left in the galaxy:  Civ A with 25 planets, Civ B with 16 planets, and Civ C with 9 planets

Assume each planet is identical, and that each planet produces 100 research points per turn

Under these assumptions, research points per turn would be Civ A 2,500, Civ B 1,600, and Civ C 900.  

Let’s look at how tech research works today.  Say all three races start researching the same tech at the same time, and that the tech costs 10,000 research points

Civ A will discover that tech in four turns ( 10,000 (/) 2,500 = 4.0 )

Civ B will discover that tech on the seventh turn ( 10,000 (/) 1,600 = 6.2 )

Civ C will discover that tech on the twelfth turn ( 10,000 (/) 900 = 11.1 )

The larger civilization will quickly pull ahead in the tech race and  'snowball'. 

Now let's see what would happen if we implement my suggestion, namely to divide each civilization’s research points per turn by the square root of the number of planets in its empire.... 

Civ A, with 25 planets, would have its research points per turn divided by 5

Civ B, with 16 planets, would have its research points per turn divided by 4

Civ C, with 9 planets, would have its research points per turn divided by 3

Say all three civs start researching the same tech at the same time, and that tech costs 2,000 research points **

Civ A will discover that tech in four turns (2,000 tech cost (/) 2,500 research points per turn (/) 5 square root of twentyfive = 4.0 )

Civ B will discover that tech in five turns (2,000 tech cost (/) 1,600 research points per turn (/) 4 square root of sixteen = 5.0 ) 

Civ C will discover that tech on the seventh turn (2,000 tech cost (/) 900 research points per turn (/) 3 square root of nine = 6.7 )

Given this approach, the smaller civs won't fall as far behind so quickly, limiting tech snowballing.  Large empires will no longer so quickly and so decisively dominate smaller empires.

Because the calculation uses the square root function, adding a new planet to an empire will always speed a civilization's total research, provided that  the new planet's research points per turn equals or exceeds the average research production of the other planets in the empire.  On the other hand, adding a new planet which spins off only a few research points might actually delay your civilization’s research slightly.  This is great, because  it forces the Player to make strategic decisions.  Maybe colonizing a size 4 desolate planet before you have discovered all the terraforming techs isn't such a good idea.  Perhaps it would be better to build out existing planets, and cover them with starbases, rather than pursuing an ICS strategy and colonizing every planet in sight as quickly as possible. (By ICS I mean infinite city sprawl, a term people used long ago for Civilization 1, 2, and 3.  Maybe there's a different term for space games?)

 

** I chose a tech research cost of 10,000 points for the current approach example and 2,000 for my squre root example because in both cases Civ A will discover the tech in four turns.  Obviously the tech costs in the GalCiv 3 tech tree would have to be rebalanced if my square root suggestion is implemented.

16,260 views 12 replies
Reply #1 Top

I can see that as being potentially frustrating for players. When something says it gives you X% bonus to research but actually it doesn't, it will cause confusion.

on the other hand, you can alter the exponent number via technology or race trait to customize the scalability of the empire's research.

ouput research = raw research ^ modifier

Reply #2 Top

Another solution would be for the AI to recognize that certain players are outpacing them all in tech and thus offer research treaties and alliances to counter the emerging threat, with war if need be to prevent them all from being outclassed. The biggest problem with the game is snowballing in general and reactionary alliances would be great.

Reply #3 Top

This would limit strategy for small empires. I think communication, morale, and finances would be a better solution. I think changing teriform where you could teriform all tiles would be a better idea. Letting you build more buildings on fewer planets. Maybe a more flat rate population increase where there is the same population increase no matter how many planets you have. Instead of growth increasing building affecting the planet it would affect the whole civilization limiting on how many could be built. Still like the idea of gathering resources for building. This would slow down building, and limit how much you could build regardless of how many planets you have especially if the resources require starbases. I just realised that population capping is what causes the population difference between tall and wide empires.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting tilyas89, reply 2

Another solution would be for the AI to recognize that certain players are outpacing them all in tech and thus offer research treaties and alliances to counter the emerging threat, with war if need be to prevent them all from being outclassed. The biggest problem with the game is snowballing in general and reactionary alliances would be great.

I think 2.0 is working toward this.

==> Divide a civilization's research points by the square root of the number of planets in its empire

Ok, there is some basis to this. Honestly, most of the time, research is a pretty willy-nilly affair. With the exception of Big Science projects, researchers tend to spread out on their own. Although the techs we are considering may be Big Science, there has to be a point of diminishing returns. However, I'm sure the GalCivians have something like an interstellar internet, so coordinating a research project among worlds wouldn't be that hard. So having a per-planet system might not make sense.

One idea would be to work with the idea that the more scientists you throw at a problem, the less efficient eafch one becomes. Trust me, I'm a scientist. I would use your square-root transformation (or a log transform, or some similar disproportionate rescaling) on the number of research points total, rather than the number of planets. The only problem with this is it means that large empires won't spend as much on reseach, and they would still have an advantage because they could use that productivity for making money or ships.

I'll think about this some more. I think this idea opens up some good options!

 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting General, reply 4

The only problem with this is it means that large empires won't spend as much on reseach, and they would still have an advantage because they could use that productivity for making money or ships.

I have no problem with larger empires having inherent financial and industrial advantages as that matches quite well with historical precedent....it is the science issue that matters the most -- small empires should have no issue at all maintaining tech parity with larger ones...

One element of reality that is rarely incorporated in games is that technology diffuses between cultures and civilizations, and that simply is not reflected at all in the game....nations that are behind in technology should have an easier time researching technology (ie lower tech costs) because of diffusion...while this is not directly tied to tall vs. wide, it would in effect ensure that any strategy that yields lower amounts of research points would have an easier time maintaining technological parity.....

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5

One element of reality that is rarely incorporated in games is that technology diffuses between cultures and civilizations

 

Try enabling tech brokering. I find that trading techs tends to even out technology among those willing to trade. I will have to see how this works in 2.0 though!

Reply #7 Top

I never even thought of that, but your right it would be more difficult to be the first to invent something. Every one else's tech points should be less.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting General, reply 6

Try enabling tech brokering. I find that trading techs tends to even out technology among those willing to trade. I will have to see how this works in 2.0 though!

Tech brokering doesn't work for 2 reasons...

First, everyone has different tech trees specifically tailored to, well, each other...a tech that is balanced in the hands of one faction given all of its other techs can be stupidly broken in the hands of another faction...in short, the balance complications of tech brokering do not make it an acceptable solution...

Second, tech brokering benefits those who have the most to trade, and not those who are behind in tech...while it might let a nation that is behind in tech to catch up, this is in general not going to be true...nations rich in resources, credits, and most importantly techs of their own have the most to benefit...

For those reasons I don't find tech brokering to solve this problem...

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8

For those reasons I don't find tech brokering to solve this problem...

Ok, I see your point. In my games, tech brokering does help even out some tech, but you are right, the lesser factions (and minor factions) often still end up way behind the 'average' tech level maintained by trading.

 

Quoting admiralWillyWilber, reply 7

I never even thought of that, but your right it would be more difficult to be the first to invent something. Every one else's tech points should be less.

Yes, very good point. How about this: if a civilization you have contacted has the technology, it should be easier to research. After all, it is much easier to copy someone else than break new ground yourself (the basis of China's rapid advance in military technology... smart

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5

I have no problem with larger empires having inherent financial and industrial advantages
).

I apologize, I was thinking in terms of the topic that brought me here, vertical strategies. In that case, we want to have a way for small empires to be competitive, but it isn't necessarily just about tech snowballing.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8

First, everyone has different tech trees specifically tailored to, well, each other...a tech that is balanced in the hands of one faction given all of its other techs can be stupidly broken in the hands of another faction...in short, the balance complications of tech brokering do not make it an acceptable solution...

You cannot acquire a tech which is not in your tree whether or not tech trading and tech brokering are on. In GC3, tech trading is more like trading slot unlocks - if you have a tech with an internal name of IndustrialSpecialization3 and my tech tree includes a tech which has the same internal name, I can buy my version of IndustrialSpecialization3 from you (assuming I meet the prerequisites for the tech and haven't already developed it), but I cannot buy your version of IndustrialSpecialization3. I also cannot buy techs which have internal names which do not appear in my tech tree (which is one of the reasons why it's not really that good of an idea to play a non-synthetic faction using the Yor tech tree or a synthetic faction using a non-Yor tech tree - it's literally impossible for such factions to acquire the techs necessary to improve the population caps of their worlds), and there are also a few techs which are marked as non-tradable regardless of whether or not the internal name is also used for other techs.

This, incidentally, is why the diplomacy screen lists technologies from your empire's tech tree in the list of things that you can ask for from the other empire and lists techs from their tech tree in the list of things that you can offer them when you have tech trading enabled.

Reply #11 Top

In almost all games I've ever played with tech brokering allowed -- aside from being a royal PITA as a player to keep on top of tech trades -- it tends to stratify the civs into layers,  and these layers tend to separate.   Civ4 recognized this and had a VERY handy overview so that you could,  with one F-key,  check the status of all other civs vis a vis tech trade opportunities.

e.g.  4 civs around the same tech end up brokering/sharing/buying tech from each other to the point where they can be considered one single entity researching 4 times as fast.    The next layer down consists of another 4 civs who got a little behind,  had nothing to trade and couldn't afford to buy their way up where the top 4 were concnerned,  so they form a bloc a little further down the tree.  In the meantime though they're probably getting their behinds whupped by the top 4 so their lack of progress up the tree is magnified.

Anyway this is kind of OT as far as tech snowballing goes - I've made some other suggestions in the "tall vs wide" thread that would help with the snowballing somewhat.

Reply #12 Top

I just had an idea...