Issues I'd like to see fixed

from AshesoftheSingularity Forums

I hope someone will read this and give it some thought.

1. Dreadnoughts are just buff, their damage and rate of fire are really underwhelming. Particularly when you are trying to take down fixed defences. A few turrets can take down a dreadnought. Considering the resource and time commitment to build a dreadnought, it really ought to be more effective. At least try increase the rate of fire a little if not damage or both. PHC Cronus when firing from afar do not gain exp for level. This should be tweaked.

Fixed defences are a bit too effective at the moment towards dreadnoughts. I see dreadnoughts as siege units, they are definitely not doing the job. Dreadnoughts are easily killed by fix defences and they cant even turn around and run away. I'd like to see fix defence damage against dreadnought lowered and dreadnought damage against fix defences increased - or fix the targeting.

PHC Cronus can damage it from far away but it takes an eternity and they also do not gain exp for level when they are firing from afar. This should be fixed.

I would also like to see dreadnought given a bit of survivability through an ability to run away.

2. Auto-attack is really messed up. Particularly ranged units. Ranged units would essentially march to melee range and get killed. When there are many many units on the map its not feasible to micro individual units and its hard to select small groups with any accuracy. Should make range units keep a greater distance when auto attacking.

 

3. Aircraft comes too early, its harass is too effective early game. Should make factory a requirement before building airfield. After all you cant build an anti-air turret before the factor. PHC missles are really bad against air so it can hardly call it a defence.

 

4. Refinery boost is too low. The required resource and time investment for it to become effective is too great. It makes games drag out a lot longer. Would like to see 20% bonus increased to 30% at least. Im not 100% if the effect is compounded or simple addition on the base resource. I feel its compounding but the effect is way too small even after many of them are built at the same location.

5. Radioactive resource is too scarce in most cases. Would like to see a reduction in cost for Quantum Relay, Refinery and Amplifier.

 

 

8,665 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

1A) disagree.
Dreadnaughts aren't units designed to do everything. Else it would just be rush to dreadnaughts and whoever gets them first wins.

- Dont take on fixed defences with them when they have anti-dreadnaught buildings there. Sit just outside range and attack with other units as well.

1B)
Cronus doesn't get exp? sounds like a bug?

2) Agreed.

3) Agreed in part. Although the PHC bombers require a building prior to construction.

FYI 4-5 : these 2 issues are really more map dependant issues at worst rather than base game design.
4) dont really agree. Its a 50% increase btw. A lot is dependant on maps. If the map has 5 minerals per node, then its a huge benefit. If there are 1-2 then there isn't. Its only beneficial in PvP when there are 3-4 patches.

I think i did the calcs at one point, and its a 2-3 minute wait for 3-4 node sections until you've paid off your investment, and start getting a bonus.

- Oh wait you said refinery. I took it as amplifier. Refineries are 20% bonus to everything from that node. So add an amplifier then start stacking refineries. Only do it on your largest number of mineral patches. (ie if you have a 4 patch, then only refineries to that).

5) dont really agree. I find the balance of which resource to chase after beneficial to the game. Some maps you know you have to rush for the 2nd gas resource as there are only 2 on your half of the map, and you need it early.

Reply #2 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Dreadnought right now is alot of investment and not enough benefit. It should be more useful. It doesnt have to be made the auto-win unit. It really should be more useful in a siege. Right now if someone bunker up you'd be there all day.

 

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Reply #3 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting peter_neate, reply 1

- Oh wait you said refinery. I took it as amplifier. Refineries are 20% bonus to everything from that node. So add an amplifier then start stacking refineries. Only do it on your largest number of mineral patches. (ie if you have a 4 patch, then only refineries to that).

Dont tell me that refineries stack, like 5 of them give 100% bonus?

 

 

Reply #4 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Yes refineries stack. Best to put them on nodes which have more resource points, including HQ. I think the 20% is already sufficient. It is amasing how just a few of them start to change your eco. 

In base game Radioactive balance is OK, can't speak for the expansion. 

Reply #6 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Depends what you mean by stack. They dont compound, they add. Each are 20% of the base resource. 5 together will give 100% of the base, but they wont EACH give 100%.

Reply #7 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Hi zaftgun,

I noticed some things in you post.

1.

topic, that what you post is not really an issue or bug get fixed/repaired. Its more that you propose to change some units (balance, design etc..)

2.

to your (1.A) there are different three different dreadnoughts for each fraction and each has an other job to do. For example phc:

Prometheus is a dreadnought that is built to take on other dreadnoughts head-to-head. (job kill other dreadnoughts)

Hyperion is a Post-Human Coalition capital ship with unsurpassed staying power in the field. (job tank from other damage)

Cronus is a long-range capital ship with indirect-fire. It is deadly against buildings or when it is defending. (job siege)

 

In my opinion the Cronous does more than enough damage to buildings, its one oft the strongest units vs buildings espacially with his aoe.

3.

refers to you (1.B) yeah the phc defense turrets are really strong; as I already wrote you can use them as siege units, but is not there job. they are definitely not doing the job ( you as player just use same false, if you use every dreadnought as siege unit. If I were you, I would take artemis as siege unit...

as conclusion, i wouldn´t change the dreadnought, due to there are doing a good job

4. (2) Agreed, its terrible. If you play substrate with the destructor (siege unit) its much worse than on the phc site

5. (3) at the moment the air units are for harresing, if talk about rockets you just build the false building. The phc has the strongest anti air bulding in the game which kills aircraft easy just build the flak canon, 

6: Refinery compared to the other race substrate too strong.  As phc player you will win with this stackable bulding every long game, just because of the Refinery.

7:  its debends on the maps but on the most maps there is enough Radioactive in my opinion

 

 


I hope someone will read this and give it some thought.

1. Dreadnoughts are just buff, their damage and rate of fire are really underwhelming. Particularly when you are trying to take down fixed defences. A few turrets can take down a dreadnought. Considering the resource and time commitment to build a dreadnought, it really ought to be more effective. At least try increase the rate of fire a little if not damage or both. PHC Cronus when firing from afar do not gain exp for level. This should be tweaked.

Fixed defences are a bit too effective at the moment towards dreadnoughts. I see dreadnoughts as siege units, they are definitely not doing the job. Dreadnoughts are easily killed by fix defences and they cant even turn around and run away. I'd like to see fix defence damage against dreadnought lowered and dreadnought damage against fix defences increased - or fix the targeting.

PHC Cronus can damage it from far away but it takes an eternity and they also do not gain exp for level when they are firing from afar. This should be fixed.

I would also like to see dreadnought given a bit of survivability through an ability to run away.

2. Auto-attack is really messed up. Particularly ranged units. Ranged units would essentially march to melee range and get killed. When there are many many units on the map its not feasible to micro individual units and its hard to select small groups with any accuracy. Should make range units keep a greater distance when auto attacking.

 

3. Aircraft comes too early, its harass is too effective early game. Should make factory a requirement before building airfield. After all you cant build an anti-air turret before the factor. PHC missles are really bad against air so it can hardly call it a defence.

 

4. Refinery boost is too low. The required resource and time investment for it to become effective is too great. It makes games drag out a lot longer. Would like to see 20% bonus increased to 30% at least. Im not 100% if the effect is compounded or simple addition on the base resource. I feel its compounding but the effect is way too small even after many of them are built at the same location.

5. Radioactive resource is too scarce in most cases. Would like to see a reduction in cost for Quantum Relay, Refinery and Amplifier.

 

 

Reply #8 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Thank you for the detailed replies.

 

Im just looking at it from a flow and feel of the game perspective.

 

1. Dreadnoughts

 

The issue I have with dreadnoughts is that I just expect them to do more. They are that big, they are that slow, they take so long to build and so much resources, you'd expect them to be more useful. Im at odds with a ship that size doing so little. 3 Sentinel turrent can easily take down a dreadnought. I dont think you see that in Total Annilhlation or Supreme Commander.

I understand there are 3 classes and it seems to go like this - Prometheus > Hyperion > Cronus > Prometheus. I find as a battlegroup one dreadnought just do not cut it. You want Hyperion backed by Cronus at least.

When I started the game I use alot of Artemis, but as time went by, I found them to be the most useless unit in the game and pretty much stopped building them. Their attack fire misses most of the time just like Cronus. For Siege damage, its still not working. At least I couldnt find a way to make it target properly. I have been trying to make use of them, they have to be in a separate group and require more attention to control. I remember having bunch of artemis/cronus sitting at long range and they fire non stop at the enemy for a full 10 minutes and I made no progress. So I raged and just sent in everything I have to forcefully bust the base.

What I find is that there is no siege unit that I can effectively close out the game with. There is no chance of the opponent coming back yet I cant break him without suffering ridiculous casualties. The opponent(AI) just essentially sits there and wait to die. I find that everything has a decent counter except fix defences.

I loved what I saw on the game play video on the steam website, unfortunately in practice, it didnt play like that. My dreadnoughts just didnt fire like that.

I also notice in the video Hyperion was shooting broadside rockets. What ability is that? I've never seen mine do that. That Prometheus fire on that nexus...wow...that was a great sight...which I never saw in the game.

 

2. Falcon Anti-Air is the most effective but it requires factory. Substrate open with assembly that can build aircraft. You'd essentially have to blind counter them by building Falcon Anti-Air straight away. The most costly unit in the game is the engineer. If you lose one early game thats a huge set back. Losing extractors is also a very significant blow, it slows you down dramatically as you are strapped for resources.

 

3. With the amount of radioactive available in most maps I struggle to expand my economy with amplifiers, refineries while also building up units and quantum relays. You have to cut some slack some where. Quantum relay probably will be the best place to do it. Each ability use already increase the quantum cost so it cannot be spammed infinitely.

Refinery takes a long time and at least 3 to reap benefits. Its slow to build and expensive. The amount of resource you spent needs alot of time to be recouped. Its a very significant drain on early game resources. If you like give substrate something similar to compensate.

 

Anyway, thank you again for replying and explaining. Its an old game already with escalation coming out in a few weeks. Its way too soon timing for expansion like this. There will be no player base for the original game and I doubt they will spare much attention to this game. I realised this too late.

Reply #9 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Hey Zaftgun,

 

its seems your problem is more based on. " what is the right build order"  for this case there are two solutions:

  • brutal force: you test in on yourself until you have the right bo for yourself
  • funny part: watch some youtube videos of good phc players like DasUnding or Quaternion Aots


Reply #10 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Hi

Those are good videos, thank you. It shows how people play and what you need to do to stay adrift.

It doesnt however address my complaints. In fact, the 2nd video I watched reinforces my complaint.

It was you winning on exactly what I have described - aircraft harass. He never caught up to you. When you beat him you had way way way more stuff. The game isnt even close. The fix defence hardspot he built was in the wrong spot that definitely didnt help. The chat says he didnt want to waste time...feels like he never expected to win. From what point on would be the question.

I have to say, it is a pleasure watching DasUnding play. The channel is very good. Thank you again. I watched the game from last month between him and no. 1 ranked Neinhalt. But I wasnt entirely sure how he won. The unit composition is well worth noting. He also controls his army very well. There is no way in hell I will be able to match that as well as awareness around the map. The grasp of situation on that huge map. Im guessing its his unit composition of heavy cronus with prometheus support and the air harass he did on the side. His economy however wasnt good. He was running -40 metal deficit peak.

I play differently and rely heavily on building up my base and getting on a good economy its slow, its difficult and its painful. That is why I complain about radioactives.

I dont think you quite understood me, I guess we'll just disagree on some things.

Either way, Im sorry to always make this wall of text. I dont know why I rant on about all those things but I just cant seem to cut it down. Its a sore to read Im sure. Thank you for trying to help me. Maybe I'll play you some day if Im good enough hehehe. Hope you continue to play and hf.

 

Reply #11 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

1) Dreadnoughts.

Like many here, I disagree that they need a buff. They're not very effective in ranked multiplayer because the maps are smaller.  And that makes sense to me.  

How I like to evaluate the strategy of Ashes is: "Can I implement this real life strategy in Ashes?" So harassing, pincers, feints, brute force, air superiority, encirclement, etc. are all real life strategies that I've been able to use successfully.  I love that.

And if we look at "real life" we know that big units (eg. battelships/aircraft carriers) need to be supported by a fleet of smaller craft.  Or, tanks need to be supported by infantry.  You can have the biggest, baddest battleship but without support it can be ripped apart by cheaper, faster aircraft/cruisers.  

What happens when you build Dreadnoughts is that you're putting a lot of resources into one unit.  Your opponent is putting his resources into many smaller units.  If you lack the resources to also have these smaller units to support your Dreadnought then you'll lose.  Which is why it really only works on some late games in ranked MP. 

That being said, I've been beaten by a well-time barely supported dreadnought that defeated my local army and pushed to my poorly defended base.  

2) Aircraft.

I definitely don't think this is an issue based on my experience.  I'm not sure I've ever lost to an early aircraft attack.  This is because while you'll lose units to that harassing aircraft (and resource extractors) you'll have pumped out a relatively larger amount of smaller units.  

As long as you can deal with the aircraft at some point, you'll have captured a lot more resources and will win mid to late game.  You just need to survive that early aircraft onslaught, and as long as it didn't stop you from expanding you'll have a very, very good chance of winning.