LoveIsAll

Essences of the current patch

Essences of the current patch

For anyone interested obviously

1. Sentinel Turret + High ground + bunch of Medics or Repair Bay = gg Subs. Holds a key position all game long and collect your PHC win. "Dude, frigates!". LOL, hi, I'm the god of Olympus, zap zap zap. You want to hear a sarcastic version? Why build a Nemesis when you can build a stationary Nemesis that has 10 times the health with roughly the same cost? At first, I was totally fine with Sentinel Turret. But since I found out it has a cost of cruiser, disguised under the tooltip "expensive", I got really pissed.

2. Fury is the "new old Punisher". If the game allows you to unbind Hades hotkey, you should, since you can just produce Punisher as PHC with less cost and roughly half the build time of Hades lololol. And btw if you're PHC and doesn't open Fury or you're Subs, say goodbye to your 2 precious engineers at around 2-3 minutes mark.

3. Air openers too retardedly favored to other openers (both factions).
Things that flies that are accessible early (aka, tier1 resemblance) should do tier1 damage or less (overall damage to the enemy as well as the weapon damage) since (you don't say?!) they can fly.
Flight IS a strength, and should be considered into the overall stats of the unit.
There's no way an aircraft that can dive and kill engineers 2-3 minutes into the game and get out alive should be tier1-accessible (accessible early and producible early).

4. There's still very little incentive to get Dreadnought. They can't bulldoze cruisers since they come so late into the game that cruisers number already got out of control.
Even the Retributor, so called anti-cruisers, can't reliably deal with them, unless heavily supported by cruisers itself (which is pointless, so much for "anti-frigate and anti-cruiser dreadnought").

5. Fury + Probing Force Sentry is now the new Dominator Avatar cheese, which, by the way, comes earlier.
It has to be pre-emptively countered or you're dead, or at a huge disadvantage that you might as well should quit the game.

6. Anti air turret in this game was probably designed by a sadist. If it has such low accuracy, it should pack a punch. If it sucks as it does now, it should have a tier2 version to strive for.
If it's the only static defense option, it should have high accuracy moderate damage, or retarded accuracy (like right now) but pack a punch.
The falcon anti air right now is a disgrace to its model. Its model is a Flak Cannon, which is, in most games, the icon of Air Destruction (moderage-high accuracy, smart aim - usually fire when the aircraft is turning, deadly damage).

7. Some maps in ranked are really really retarded. What did you smoke when you put Fast and Furious into ranked play?
What did you smoke when you put the nodes so tight in Bis that the Turinium generator creeps destroy my extractors?
People complain about Cygnus. After patch it's even more broken for bottom position then it already is. So is Knife Fight. So is left position of Deneb.
Suuuuuuuuuuure, maps will change next season. Oh my sweet summer child. Do you know what that means? That means these stupid issues will be swept under the carpet and we have to endure them until next season. And guess what, next season will have its own issues again. And hey, wake up call, we have, in fact, endured these issues for more than half the season. Can some kind soul with map editors prowess edit these maps and send the devs?

8. Yes, yes, there will be new units, the tips of balance will change, but then everytime it changes, we have to deal with very broken shits.
Epic battle, massive scale RTS, game doesn't last past 10 minutes with no dreadnoughts or nukes in sight. Come on.

Sure, my tone of writing is always sarcastic and harsh. But at least I'm being honest.

Am I expecting too much out of this game at this stage? Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. Maybe I should delete this forum account and shut up and just play.

178,514 views 49 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 25

sub is ok, they can lose 3 engineers no problem early game. they still kill phc in open ground so I dont get why sub players are having problems. They have everything they need from assemblies and they cry injustice if they lose their precious engineers while they build the apocalypse from the assembly. 

avatar is a very big problem if fury cannot take him out so some thinking is required. avatar did the same what fury does now, only better and cheaper and no sub players complained.

Please for the love of this game just watch danail play or try to remember when you play against him and you will figure it out very fast that fury is really a non issue, it's just players having problems fighting it because of low micro skills, they want all on autopilot.

Fury requires the manual targeting for the autocannon to trigger so it is micro intensive and good lock trying to snipe engineers when there are sky cleansers on the field.

Sub players want all the advantages of sub without bothering to build AA and again their metal cost is so low they can recover fast. they can even siege phc with drone mrv for the fun of it, that dirt cheap their defense really is and yet they complain about the sentry.

another bothering point is that dominators with standard ground weapon can pretty much kill engineers with ease, they just dont one shot them that is only the difference. try looking at a fury that tries to kill an engineers without the autocannon...it is really painful to look at that.
 

 

I have to agree

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 25

sub is ok, they can lose 3 engineers no problem early game. they still kill phc in open ground so I dont get why sub players are having problems. They have everything they need from assemblies and they cry injustice if they lose their precious engineers while they build the apocalypse from the assembly. 

avatar is a very big problem if fury cannot take him out so some thinking is required. avatar did the same what fury does now, only better and cheaper and no sub players complained.

Please for the love of this game just watch danail play or try to remember when you play against him and you will figure it out very fast that fury is really a non issue, it's just players having problems fighting it because of low micro skills, they want all on autopilot.

Fury requires the manual targeting for the autocannon to trigger so it is micro intensive and good lock trying to snipe engineers when there are sky cleansers on the field.

Sub players want all the advantages of sub without bothering to build AA and again their metal cost is so low they can recover fast. they can even siege phc with drone mrv for the fun of it, that dirt cheap their defense really is and yet they complain about the sentry.

another bothering point is that dominators with standard ground weapon can pretty much kill engineers with ease, they just dont one shot them that is only the difference. try looking at a fury that tries to kill an engineers without the autocannon...it is really painful to look at that.
 

Another comedy gold classic filled with ridiculous exaggeration and straw man arguments. 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting DasUnding, reply 26


Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger,

sub is ok, they can lose 3 engineers no problem early game. they still kill phc in open ground so I dont get why sub players are having problems. They have everything they need from assemblies and they cry injustice if they lose their precious engineers while they build the apocalypse from the assembly. 

avatar is a very big problem if fury cannot take him out so some thinking is required. avatar did the same what fury does now, only better and cheaper and no sub players complained.

Please for the love of this game just watch danail play or try to remember when you play against him and you will figure it out very fast that fury is really a non issue, it's just players having problems fighting it because of low micro skills, they want all on autopilot.

Fury requires the manual targeting for the autocannon to trigger so it is micro intensive and good lock trying to snipe engineers when there are sky cleansers on the field.

Sub players want all the advantages of sub without bothering to build AA and again their metal cost is so low they can recover fast. they can even siege phc with drone mrv for the fun of it, that dirt cheap their defense really is and yet they complain about the sentry.

another bothering point is that dominators with standard ground weapon can pretty much kill engineers with ease, they just dont one shot them that is only the difference. try looking at a fury that tries to kill an engineers without the autocannon...it is really painful to look at that.
 



 

I have to agree

 

Let me rephrase this for everyone else:

"Let's abuse Fury bugged weapon because Subs op hehehheheheehe"

"Low micro skills. You should learn how to micro your anti air turrets and Sky Cleansers hehehehehehehe"

"I can't send my force over to the Avatar harassment spots, too much work. I need a 440 dps unit that can fly to snipe it in 1/2 shot so that my opponent cannot punish my undefended nodes heahaaheeahaehaehehehuahae"

"Hey, it takes MANUAL TARGETING EFFORT to abuse the bug, you have to sympathize with that rejrqoijfoqjaefhehaehehehhehee"

 

My troll thread got 26 replies. I'm actually impressed. Keep it up guys!

Reply #29 Top

Neinhalt maybe you can give some micro tips to LoveIsAll here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgU-f9rEwCo

Bonus points to DasUnding for the "analysis" at the end of the game: "I think he should have built some more AA and some aircraft."

 

Reply #30 Top

-In my oppinion the change of the fury whenever it was interduced is a step forward. Consider PHC suffered brutal with their air units before that change.

-PHC had such bad winrate vs Substrate. I am not sure about whether the winrate is actually increasing. We have a small playerbase so the statistic could be problematic without demanding on new players abilities.

-I don't see any subplayer going for similar tactics -> the most players I played against play pure ground and most of the time I think they don't use their possobilities (dropping avatar by not having air superiority is not a possibilitie -> complaining about such things does not help as well) In fact it actually ends most of the time by a crazy attack of the subplayer in the PHC defendse without having the anti building unit but it is a very narrow fight even if the stays in multiple sentinel turrets.

-The gameplay would increase further if we had more opportunities like we have with the fury dominator harassment. 

-I think we will see a major change in the air gameplay within a few patches.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 29

Neinhalt maybe you can give some micro tips to LoveIsAll here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgU-f9rEwCo

Bonus points to DasUnding for the "analysis" at the end of the game: "I think he should have built some more AA and some aircraft."

 

 

I think the key for that map is to hold the mid: you can attack up and down if you have the mid and that is not possible to defend without running in the defensive if you had some defense there. 

I think this was the major problem. In fact I had a game vs Neinhalt in which Neinhalt was able to get this position but it is possible to win with such a disadvantage. In my oppinion LoveIsAll did not use a good strategy in this game.

I am not sure about the mechanic of stopping the aircraft to be not attacked by the autocannon.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting DasUnding, reply 31

In my oppinion LoveIsAll did not use a good strategy in this game.

What was he supposed to do? He had blossom built asap. You still sniped his constructors preventing his advance and tech multiple times. All of this was within the first 3 minutes of the game. You sniped his Drone Hives as well. Dominators will lose to furies as well as they have 158 dps vs 440. Sky cleansers are fine but you're not going to capture any more territory with sky cleansers.

Furies allow easy air superiority for PHC, which is ok in itself as it forces Substrate to invest in some AA and advance more carefully but this bug allows PHC easy air superiority plus ability to quickly kill constructors, avatar, T2 units, etc. all while focusing on building up the land advance. Hold the mid? Yes of course, but not when you are permanently behind from losing so many units to furies. Losing that many constructors sets you way back during the crucial early game period. You are abusing a bug here, that's all.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 32


Quoting DasUnding,

In my oppinion LoveIsAll did not use a good strategy in this game.



What was he supposed to do? He had blossom built asap. You still sniped his constructors preventing his advance and tech multiple times. All of this was within the first 3 minutes of the game. You sniped his Drone Hives as well. Dominators will lose to furies as well as they have 158 dps vs 440. Sky cleansers are fine but you're not going to capture any more territory with sky cleansers.

Furies allow easy air superiority for PHC, which is ok in itself as it forces Substrate to invest in some AA and advance more carefully but this bug allows PHC easy air superiority plus ability to quickly kill constructors, avatar, T2 units, etc. all while focusing on building up the land advance. Hold the mid? Yes of course, but not when you are permanently behind from losing so many units to furies. Losing that many constructors sets you way back during the crucial early game period. You are abusing a bug here, that's all.

I looked at the video and I see that I was able to kill two constructors untill minute three was finished and I had 2 damaged furies but consider he did not have good AA on the top and he did not not even have an avatar or double dominator opening.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 29

Neinhalt maybe you can give some micro tips to LoveIsAll here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgU-f9rEwCo

Bonus points to DasUnding for the "analysis" at the end of the game: "I think he should have built some more AA and some aircraft."

 

 

Watch my game vs k'lay PHC vs PHC in his stream and you will see a text book defense vs fury opening. It did require fury + AA tower for that to happen as das unding suggested.

 

In substrate case that is even simpler they need their dirt cheap skicleanser that have almost the same dps as apollo and a dominator in the air. Both units spawn from the assembly, mind you!!

Reply #35 Top

Look at these 2 guys lol. They're like

"We clearly didn't abuse any bug"

"Subs clearly didn't have enough AA"

"It can be countered!!!!11!oneone"

Hahahahahahahaahaahaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Go on guys. It's amusing.

Reply #36 Top

The problem is that the most in the forum play sub :) and we are only two. That fakt should told you anything about the balance ;)

 

but we left the table of the arguments now and you defensively try to denunciate us :/ not very polite :(

 

Finally I am sure they will change something and further improve our gameplay.

Reply #37 Top

Step 1: Change topic back to balance

Step 2: Pretend to be bullied

Step 3: Demand politeness

Step 4: Reassuring punchline

And damn, I have to be polite to bug abusers now. What a time of gaming era to be alive!

Reply #38 Top

That's for sure video  gamers were much more polite in the sixties. Come on man you can't keep on trolling a nice community and call us abusers at the same time.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 34

Watch my game vs k'lay PHC vs PHC in his stream and you will see a text book defense vs fury opening. It did require fury + AA tower for that to happen as das unding suggested.In substrate case that is even simpler they need their dirt cheap skicleanser that have almost the same dps as apollo and a dominator in the air. Both units spawn from the assembly, mind you!!
 
So this "text book defense" vs. fury opening....required a fury. OK lol.
Skycleanser dirt cheap? All PHC T1s are cheaper except medic is 8 metal more.
So your answer is to go all AA as substrate. And when the 3rd fury appears? Just build more sky cleansers and dominators? Which cannot take the map and cannot harass as efficiently as the fury? I'd like to see this game. When I beat fury opening as substrate it is only because the player did not execute it as effectively as das unding did in the video above.
Reply #40 Top

As of now all the top ten players have better win percentage as sub than PHC. The closer one is Ailes at position four with 87% as sub and 86% as PHC.

Even Das Unding the PHC specialist as a 87% as sub vs 77% as PHC. I'm a very average player but I know it's easier to win with sub than PHC. Now when something comes up that give hope to a PHC player, I say it's fair enough to see it as welcome. But you're right the fury exploit is a lot of microing and profit to players with good micro skill. As an average player I' m far to win against a legendary sub player even with the fury opening. I wouldn't know but it might reverse the balance for top notch player.

More generally I like the idea that sub has a powerful streamlined economy and PHC has to disrupt it and needs the means to. Maybe the autocannon targeting ground target is too much but something attached to the fury that could slow down sub developpement would be useful. I'm thinking of a beam weapon that could take out an constructor or cripple an cruiser but with a slow recharge.

Reply #41 Top

The problem with the Fury right now is that every game is reduced to rushing out a Fury at the beginning to counter it. For me that is no fun. In a 2v2 yesteryday I went straight for Fury and took out all the engineers of both opposing players. Effective but it was no fun and in the rematch I didn't do it again.

There are plenty of ways to balance out PHC vs Sub without an OP Fury.

People should stop getting a bit personal in here. Balance will no doubt change again with 1.2 and then again further down the line. State your cases and let that and any accompanying videos speak for you.

Reply #42 Top

8 out of 10 players in top 10 are sub players and das unding started to drop in rank when he started to play phc again.

 

Sub players are just lazy they want to win with no air defense even if their air defense is very cheap on metal. 

 

I agree that rushing air to defend air can get tedious fast but the irony is that sub players were the ones to rush air from their broken assemblies :) 

 Ps: the new weapon of atena is a very big nerf to phc ground, they cannot break substrate defenses and maulers are still to cheap on metal for what they can do

 

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 42

8 out of 10 players in top 10 are sub players and das unding started to drop in rank when he started to play phc again.

 

Sub players are just lazy they want to win with no air defense even if their air defense is very cheap on metal. 

 

I agree that rushing air to defend air can get tedious fast but the irony is that sub players were the ones to rush air from their broken assemblies :)  

 Ps: the new weapon of atena is a very big nerf to phc ground, they cannot break substrate defenses and maulers are still to cheap on metal for what they can do

 

 

Still very fond of straw man arguments I see. Go on please. Hey, I bet you don't even understand what straw man arguments mean. Hahahhahahahahaaa.

You know why he drops in rank? He didn't abuse it hard enough. He should abuse it harder. He will be rank 1 so quickly. LOL.

Who was the one yelling at developers that Dominator Avatar is broken? That's right. It's me (well, and a lot of other people). Guess where the thread went? Some moderator moved it from General to Feedback (on Steam, where they probably couldn't censor the post) so that it's left to die there without gaining any additional attention. Smart move! And the mirror thread on the forum? It got "rephrased" into some garbage junks of text that barely express the original idea. Welp.

Oh and, what happened to Dominator Avatar opening? That's right, you need Quantum Archive and Gateway to do it. So right, let's build those 2 buildings, yeah? Wait, where are my constructors?! Damn, I must have started the game with zero constructor somehow. Hahahhhahahhaaaaaaaaa.

 

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 42

Sub players are just lazy they want to win with no air defense even if their air defense is very cheap on metal. 

- Said no one ever

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 42

8 out of 10 players in top 10 are sub players and das unding started to drop in rank when he started to play phc again.

Even if this were factually true, which it is not, it would still not be useful in a balance discussion. People play a faction for many reasons besides perceived strength. I'm not entirely sure what a "sub player" is to be honest. I think you may be the only person in all of ranked play that has only played as one faction. In my mind, that disqualifies you from balance discussions from the start. In a game with a community this small, with only two factions, everyone should play both factions semi-equally in my opinion. Or at least enough in ranked play to get some experience with them vs equal opponents. We should be striving towards 2 factions that are balanced with each having interesting, viable options for strategy. Not fan-boying one faction exclusively with all the bias and exaggeration that that brings. The partisanship of "sub player" and "phc player" is so silly and counter-productive. There were plenty of players who play both factions who completely agreed with avatar being OP in earlier patches. Most reasonable players look at the Fury and easily admit and know it is brokenly OP right now. Go ask Ki_Lay what he thinks of the Fury for example...

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 34

their dirt cheap skicleanser that have almost the same dps as apollo

I'm not sure here if you are trolling or actually have never read the tooltips on your own units but skycleanser is 57 dps. Apollo has 3 different weapons: 62 dps flak, 14 dps autocannon (x2), 26 dps point defense (x4). Plus of course much more staying power with its armor and health. 

Reply #45 Top

I didn"t read sky cleaner decription but from my exp they melt fury even in low numbers and are more eliable than athena. One athena can die to two fury squads if it has no medic support, but good luck killing cleanser. Cleansers are v ok and  very cheap compared to phc aa. Btw you can queue 1 cleanser and 1 dominator from the start and still have time to build hive, it's really bad play to fall behind as sub even if you lose the first two engineers with no air defense.

 

Loveisall the avatar problem was first signalled by das unding afaik. You are number two in rank and still do not understand substrate power, you dont get it and logic seems to be no help.

 

I did a test with grandor (a very cool guy) and we swithced races in custom game and i have to say that in my first sub game ever I crushed his phc and half of the game i was reading tooltips. You can do anything that phc does but better  with sub. You can outmaneuver, outproduce, outmineral and hell even outrange phc defense with your own mrv now if you want, since athena has been nerfed with that anti building weapon.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 45

I didn"t read sky cleaner decription but from my exp they melt fury even in low numbers and are more eliable than athena. One athena can die to two fury squads if it has no medic support, but good luck killing cleanser. Cleansers are v ok and  very cheap compared to phc aa. Btw you can queue 1 cleanser and 1 dominator from the start and still have time to build hive, it's really bad play to fall behind as sub even if you lose the first two engineers with no air defense.

 

Loveisall the avatar problem was first signalled by das unding afaik. You are number two in rank and still do not understand substrate power, you dont get it and logic seems to be no help.

 

I did a test with grandor (a very cool guy) and we swithced races in custom game and i have to say that in my first sub game ever I crushed his phc and half of the game i was reading tooltips. You can do anything that phc does but better  with sub. You can outmaneuver, outproduce, outmineral and hell even outrange phc defense with your own mrv now if you want, since athena has been nerfed with that anti building weapon.

 

You are the one who is trying to steer away from the issue that Fury Bugged Autocannon has to be fixed. Stop trying to strawman me, you're not getting anywhere, just another bug abuser.

Yes there is counter. Yes I can play better. I can't be bothered. Why? Why do I have to try hard to gain back a game vs a bug abuser? That's right. There's no reason to try. In fact in the 2 games I got abused I should have quit immediately the moment I see Fury at my base.

If you want to complain about Subs op, go to your own thread, that is the main topic there.

And rofl @ not reading tooltips or wiki and dare to say stuffs are cheaper than / stronger than / equal to other stuff. And yo, don't even know that Apollo name isn't Athena. LOL.

Reply #47 Top

I dont gry to steer away, my point is that you still don"t understand the game mechanics.

 

Tere is a difference in getting abused by dominator/avatar wich was an intended feature that devs intentionally put in the game without testing the impact of a 35 quanta supercruiser and being unprepared to a srat where you know first hand that you need air to counter it.  The more i talk with you the more i think sub race is insanely op if a person like you got to the 2nd pos in.ladder. I really hope you never get to play starcraft and see your mineral line dissapear to a single oracle/banshee or other horrors. I think that you may have a breakdown :)

On topic, i have played vs danail with fury (btw danail is another cool guy) and i think he lost 1 or 2 engies and that was about it. He still got his 5 to 8 assemblues and he still mudered me and he didnt whine on.the forums that fury ruined his day. He knows how to macro to a good enough point that avatar changes and other minor stuff is irrelevant to his gameplay.

On the other hand we have players that relied heavily on abusing avatar and now they drop in ladder cause there is an unit called fury that wipes their precious avatar.

 

Reply #48 Top

Quoting Neinhalt_Sieger, reply 47

I dont gry to steer away, my point is that you still don"t understand the game mechanics.

 

Tere is a difference in getting abused by dominator/avatar wich was an intended feature that devs intentionally put in the game without testing the impact of a 35 quanta supercruiser and being unprepared to a srat where you know first hand that you need air to counter it.  The more i talk with you the more i think sub race is insanely op if a person like you got to the 2nd pos in.ladder. I really hope you never get to play starcraft and see your mineral line dissapear to a single oracle/banshee or other horrors. I think that you may have a breakdown :)

On topic, i have played vs danail with fury (btw danail is another cool guy) and i think he lost 1 or 2 engies and that was about it. He still got his 5 to 8 assemblues and he still mudered me and he didnt whine on.the forums that fury ruined his day. He knows how to macro to a good enough point that avatar changes and other minor stuff is irrelevant to his gameplay.

On the other hand we have players that relied heavily on abusing avatar and now they drop in ladder cause there is an unit called fury that wipes their precious avatar.

 

 

That's right. Comparing to Starcraft again. Definitely a similar game with focus on macro and less in micro (LOL). That's right, this game needs to have those horrors so that you can justify Fury bugged weapon. That's right, I don't understand game mechanics have a lot to do with Fury Autocannon has to be fixed.

Can you all look at this guy? He's still onto "Subs op" arguments. He won't get off it. Because he can't. That's the only argument he can use to win. While the topic is essentially about Fury bug. And he dares to say, "On topic", just to again say "You can still win". Who the fuck doesn't know that. LOL. But why, why do I have to put up with an abuser. Nope, no can do. Don't want to.

Oh sure, I got to Master in SC2 before I quit. Ofc I don't know about Oracle or Banshee. Nope, never seen them. You definitely know my SC2 games better than I do despite not having played them or have any replays of them.

FIX THE DAMN BUG ALREADY DEVS.

Reply #49 Top

Fix the damn  bug or else? You quit playing sub?   You reek of gold sc player in best case scenario :))

 

If the ladder is dominated by sub and sub have better game mechanics than phc, it is that hard to admit that sub is just plain better? Devs give fury and refinery, but they destroy artemis. Game feels like a rush for phc players.to.get cronus so they can bypass cheap sub cruisers and defense. In all this.time phc is bleeding metal. Very balanced.