The 'Negative Balance'-strategy (NB strat)

still playing while being in debt...

The 'Negative Balance'-strategy is the most efficient way to create an early high military score and/or an uberhigh lategame military score. It is published here for the first time, after being part of a collection of private strategies in the, now defunct, KzintiEmpire forums.

It can serve as a basic militaryshipbuilder/ planetaryoutbuilder in Giga-All-Abundant-Millionpointer games (where it has FAR less rampup-time than any other comparative strategies [like "All-Econ"]); and its application to SD-ZYWs (vs. max enemies) will also double these scores and sometimes even hold the power to prolong these games right into y1 (then they're not ZYW's anymore ^_^  ) or you can even use it to defeat a Suicidal AI in a warfighting game....

It doesn't work for TotA for several reasons... but in DL & DA you actually can do the following:

  • quickbuying planetary improvements
  • producing hulls
  • upgradeing ships

and all of it while being deeply broke/ in debt. :omg:  

Thus, the economic bound - which normally would act as the limiting factor to the things you can do & effecting most increments of score [and which some other strategies try to circumvent by "lease-buying" or do a "mass-shipupgrade"] - falls out of the equation:



As you can deduce from the screenie, the game still allows production which comes via focus from your labs to your shipyard while being hopelessly broke.
Global sliders have to be set to 100% spending allocated to 100% research to take full effect.

Focus will only transfer 1/4th of the base research-production – thus, research-enhancing modifiers are irrelevant for this strategy. But bonus-tiles are actually very helpful as they do multiply the base-output of labs.

After the transfer, it'll then be enhanced by your racial military-production-ability, therefore it's immensely helpful to have as much military-related bonus as possible. The +50% increase for 4 distribution points is a must-have in DA or as DL-Yor. 
For a DL-Drath game their own inherent +25% MilProd would get overwritten, so in order to get the biggest bang for the buck you could actually pick the Industrialists political party instead.

Rule of thumb is to get, at aleast, 75% MP total, plus one the two following:

  • Go evil and build the ASC (Artificial Slave Center) - which multiplies your MilProd by a flat *1.5. This is also incredibly helpful & should be your #1 choice.
  • Or go neutral & build 'Neutrality Learning Centers' bringing +22base research instead of 'Discovery Spheres' +18. However, this is not so effective than the ASC plus you also loose the ability to outbuild starbases while being in debt (or invade planets with special invasive techniques, although that is borderline irrelevant for MV play)

 

Note that planetary improvements which enhance industry through a percentage (like Power Plants) don't seem to have any effect on production coming from research-focus... [but the other way around it works, if industry gets focused at research this will actually be multiplied by planetary research-boosters XO  ] 

The only exception which I'm aware of is the presence of an orbital Moon (+10% production) which account perhaps for 20% of all planets (really grossly estimated now). With some setups, such a Moon actually reduces the necessary labcount by -1.



Naturally there is some stuff you can't do while being in debt - so the NB-strat needs some time to be prepared ingame:

Initial research-phase:
You can only start this once you have all necessary techs!
In a gigantic-all abundant game, where you most likely want to build a MSBA & ultimately outbuild all planets to super-tax makers, you'll basically need to research the complete techtree. Which takes about 48-72 turns.
If you only want to prolong a SD-ZYW and basically follow the researchpath given in there [TBA], you already have all of it  ;)

'In debt research':
A tiny bit of research can still be done to get some isolated techs which are somewhat outside a reasonable techpattern; use the 

  • +25% research anomaly
  • „research“ treaty with your last AI or your Allies
  • "dead treaty" (AFAIK only works until reloading)
  • research-carryover
  • stealing techs with spies/ invasion

Starbase-dilemma:
Building new military starbases costs money if you have already a few starbases sitting in space (the actual number & costs for each new SB is floating because it's based the galaxy size but mitigated by your logistics ability)
Note that errecting new resource bases doesn't cost money – but nevertheless these bases do still count as true starbases which will definitely increase your other starbase-costs! And that actually is a huge problem because it means if we mine out these precious resources (which is one of the very first things you should do in MillionPointers ASAP long before you actually are finished researching!) we definitely have to pay a considerable amount cash when building a MSBA... or for a MSBF, a hell lot.


At this time, money ceases to have any meaning for your game. Just toggle military focus on all your planets, enqueue a Tiny Hull, Small Hull or a Cargo Hull on all starports, and buy an improvement on all your planets per turn as well – and also upgrade all your ships to maximum tech design completely irrelevant of cost-considerations.

If you, by that time, haven't colonized all planets already upgrade your hulls to max-engine-Colonysships to get this done ASAP – this is actually more important than to have an early military because it gives you the greatest potential for a high military score lasting over 2-4 game years.



The planetary buildqueue should always start with a starport & followed by as many labs until production is so high that the planet releases one hull per turn. The amount of labs is dependant on your setup, your choice of hull & the availability of research-bonustiles & therefore, can vary alot.

Additionally, every planet should have ultimately 2 Advanced Farms & the rest tiles are all filled up with Stock Markets. If you don't want to have too much hassle with individually manageing +1000 planets just queue it this way & be done (the quickbuying on all these planets could be made by an AUTO HOT KEY script...)

However, to make the most score out of it, you sort the planetary buildqueue according to these logical instructions: 

  1. IF planetpopulation is 1 turn near MaxPop - build a farm (until targetMaxPop=20b or higher)
  2. IF planetary approval is below 100% - build a Virtual Reality Center
  3. ELSE build a Stock Market

Actually, if there wouldn't be any bonustiles ingame we could easily determine (in accordance to our popgrowth rate...) the optimal enqueue list.... But bonus-tiles screw it up completely....  XO

If you're an advanced scripter you could write an extensive script which recognises these tiles by their color & then places their respective target-improvement on top of them & even uses logical routines to swap between different optimized buildqueues.

Or you queue all these improvements manually, assigning a key for each of the 5 necessary improvements. Because your popgrowth-rate will stay basically the same (if you don't experience a PopGrow-Boom) the farms have to be queued always at the same spot in your list.

This can easily be determined beforeahead once you're done with outmining all resources & build all wonders etc... just colonize a planet - play a few empty turns & see how development occurs.

Nevertheless, here are two tables detailing DA-Breeder-NB-strat-buildqueues:

(for an ordinairy 250m Colony Ship:)

 

(for a big 1250m Colony Ship - enhanced by an 'Advanced Troop Mod' - use this design if possible, popgrow is significantly better here:)

Use the Tiny & Small Hulls to colonize the last remaining planets and outbuild your MSBA. In DA a Gigantic-All-Abundant galaxy averagely holds around +1000 habitable planets (in DL much less...). At the time you start NB you've probably already colonized/swindled 300-400 planets, so that leaves you with 600-800 Tinys & 300-400 Small Hulls - which together is fairly enough to place all modules on the MSBA.

If you want to construct a MSBF you'll most likely have to gift the AI allready outgrown SBs (well, you could actually try to set Constructors beside his MSBs, gift him "Starbase Defenses" through "Starbase Conquest Strategy"-techs in hope that he uses them... :\  yeah nonono toooooo unsure.....) so if you need more Tiny/Small Hulls you should actually delay building Labs & instead prioritize Stocks to net an increased EconScore.


Principally the same applies to your planetary approval BUT there're 2 factors playing right into it

  1. +2% morale anomaly
  2. approval-penalty for being long-time in debt - displayed by a 'Smiley' in the bottom-left global pop/finance window:

This penalty is responsible that every now & here your approval sinks a bit – and it will not stop. It will appear for the first time after 24 turns being (effectively) in debted, and will swiftly take away some approval; always in -1% steps. These steps will get progressively longer - but you'll have lost approx. 6% approval for the first full year of debt; 8% for the second year, 6% for the third year etc

The difference in popgrowth between 99% & 100% is siginificant so you don't want that to happen. Advancing the VRCs a turn or 2 sooner in your list may therefore save you alot of manual work.

The above holds true for Dread Lords... also read Reply#5 to get some additional infos on how it works in Dark Avatar.



Additional Moral-depreciation & Population Growth info:
Your beneficial racial & planetary moralstats are actually depreciated by your tax-setting & also increasingly depreciated by your population. Sooner or later they will grow less fast when being in the range off 99% - 39%.

Between 39%-20% no more growth happens, so planets usually come at a natural stop at 39% approval. Still, that planet could support a handful of people. Because of this, and also, because we don't want slow popgrowth – you should actually build more VRCs – so approval stays at 100% throughout most of popgrowth-phase. Once you're done most (if not all!) of these VRCs then can be overbuild by a Stock Market. 

From 19% - 0% a significant portion of your pop will flee your planet when pressing turn. That is, if you overbuild VRCs with Stocks you want your approval still to stay above 19%. Because of the „debt-moral-loss“ a handfull of planets may even slip to 19% every now & then which then either calls for a tax-reduction or an additional VRC on these planets. The former is more easy & handy but the later will net more score IMO.



How many VRCs as final planet-design?
Actually – none. Even a +50% moral improvement (Torian, TotA) doesn't rival a Stock Market in economic return. Your ability to completely cap population at 20b food with approval still over 20% relies on the number of available moral-resources.

Only build VRCs to boost individual planets – so that you don't have to reduce taxes for ALL planets. But if your ever-increasing moral loss becomes so great that you end up having a VRC on virtually all planets you might instead reduce taxes a bit & overbuild all VRCs with Stocks (which is, again, tiresome repetetive work...)

Actually, there may be one exception – when moral-bonustile(s) are present, and esp. if a +300% foodtile is also present. Because here (when you have a good galactic moral-setup) such a planet might be able to successfully hold more than 20b people – in this case overbuilding the bonustile-VRC with a Stock will surely reduce your population.

In a bad overall-moral-environment (where most planets won't even reach the 20b cap) such a moral-bonustile will also grant you additional pop – even without food-bonustiles. 
A general rule-of-thumb is to simply fill the first moral-bonustile with a VRC and let it stay there.

 

Which hull?
In DL a Small Hull costs exactly the same as a Cargo Hull but has much less capacity so it's out of question. Also, a Cargo Hull can be turned into a Large Hull adding +4 military points/ship derived from hitpoints so that's a very attractive choice.

The general consideration is to trade military score (Cargo Hulls) for economic+popscore (Tiny Hulls, Small Hulls).

Some lowPQ planets may not even have enough tiles to produce a Cargo Hull per turn & still support 20b people.
1. Initial Colony 2. Starport 3-8. Discovery Spheres 9-10. Farms. Especially in DL there are alot of PQ8 worlds.
In this case, getting the planet to produce one hull each turn is your very best choice! This is so because

  • of the way military translates into score (always mounting up!)
  • while pop/econ stays linearily the same once capped (and it's capped via planets & tiles)
  • a 20b highpop planet actually only justifies in terms of score when one also can build a few Stock Markets on it. How many Stocks are actually necessary to justify this, is somewhat floating because it's based on your economics ability (which acts as a base multiplier for your planetary economic number [very crudely spoken now...!] versus your ability to militarize shiphulls (ie your miniaturization-, defense- & weaponsability) plus your skills to be able to put them under as many military starbases as possible. :borg: x_x
  • Population in itself is the least interesting for score because of the abscence of any meaningful multipliers here (and because 100b pop planets aren't feasable to pull of everywhere but that is a topic for another time...)

So unless one could construct a massive MSBF (which work fairly well even with +1+1 Tiny Fighters...), you best go with Cargo Hulls at a 1-hull-per-turn production rate.

 

Some tiny general playout advice
Use the „Colony Rallye Points“-Governor to release these hulls from the planets every turn, but immediately kill it so these hulls stay put where they are.
Upgrade them immediately to your max-military design in order to gain military score.
Repeat this for a handful of turns until you can still a single fleet with the ships sitting below one planet. You can create an AHK-script in order to fleet them all together. Afterwards upgrade them all to a fast design using lots of engines & re-route them towards the MSBA/MSBF. Give them at least, a single weapon- & defensemod so they can receive the SB-support a turn more early.
Once these ships have reached their final parsec re-upgrade them to max-military, again.
Repeat this until your system cannot support more ships, or you're fed up with the lag... then overbuild all Discovery Spheres with Stock Markets.

If you re-route a ship/fleet to a rallye-point where they already are, they will get stuck even with the options already set to "ignore moves left over from auto-pilot". Hitting "G" helps or you work with several different rallye-point places.

Give each upgrade-row a different shipname, that way you can efficiently upgrade multiple rows which don't affect one another, also it gives you the possibility to decommision ships in packs of 5k-10k should the game turn out to lag too severe or isn't able to create an autosave/quicksave/endgamesave! :O

At this point you only have to only play quasi-empty turns, set auto-save to 2 (so you can easily go back 6 turns reloading the „previousautosave“) or any other setting you feel comfortable with.
Your score will go up for some time, then start to slow down, then stay in stasis for a few turns, then start going down slowly. Retire a game now & then (multiply this score by 14 – this will give you the exact number of an otherwise Military Victory) in order to find out at what stage of score-development you are, and find your best time to submit the highest one.


Downsides of the NB-strat
You'll encounter more of the above mentioned 'prolonged-debt-penalty' than an All-Econ-strategy; in the range of 5-8%.

Huge Hulls are unreachably.

There is a certain "breakpoint" when, in fact, an All-Econ-strategy would even be close or equal in term of scorestrength to the NB-strat. And that is once you can lease-buy one Huge Hull + one planetary improvement per turn on all your available planets. As said, this actually needs some ramp-up time but it'll occur quite naturally if you (after swindleing & mining out all resources) focus too much on colonizing new planets while taking research only from the Initial Colony building. For a successfull NB-strat you'll have to try to finish research sooner:

  • red/weapon-techs first as these do inflate VERY MUCH
  • leasebuy labs on researchbonustiles on any planets & also outbuild your TechCapital to maximize research. Try to get the AI TechCaps as well. 
  • Some branches aren't really needed - engines, range, planetary defense, shields et al. Think about building a substandard MSBA where you ignore the middle/late Beam/Missile-weapons (this saves a TON of research)

But if you're already at the point where an All-Econ-strat successfully launches off you can even combine both & leasebuy some 20k Huge Hulls - and, if your economy allows it - make an early NOT BANKRUPTING mass-shipupgrade on a few thousand ships(ususally around the time when most planets are somewhat finished). Then you go ahead to get some more Huge Hulls until your economy finally succumbs under the weight of ever-increasing leases. Then you make a final bankrupting mass-shipupgrade, and right immediately switch to the NB-strat to get even higher Military Rating.

 

"ZYW-NB":
A gigantic all-abundant map can actually be played out as a quasi-ZYW and ended premature in y0 or y1, and it will net significantly more score as any traditional ZYW or anything else you can pull of with any comparable strategies; from 600k upwards even crossing a million.

For this you'll have to cut research short (basically just follow the ZYW-SD research-path) and immediately swindle all AIs out of existance (ignoreing any attempts to farm Shrinkers or MCCs), and use your planets to produce Laser-ZPA-Cargo Hulls instead of colonizing the galaxy, which just sit at/beside your planets.

You may get around several thousand of those at the end of the year. Your score will rise very steep but also come to a halt very abrupt & decline fastly as well - and its best peek will NOWHERE be as high as if you colonize all planets (which calls for a longer game...).

A good chunk of your final score in such a game will actually rely on the AIs themselves - esp. how effective they are in colonizing the galaxy (for you  XD )

42,001 views 21 replies
Reply #1 Top

Some data for Dread Lords:

(Note: in DreadLords the Yor & the Drath are the only 2 races that are interesting in terms of achieving score.)


(Cargo Hull = 55; DS = Discovery Sphere; MP = Military Production)

YOR +50% MP via distr. points +30% MilProd via techbonuses + ASC::

with 80%:
Initial Colony = 5 ind.
1 DS = 18 ind.
2 DS = 28 ind.
3 DS = 43 ind.
4 DS = 54 ind. +5% SB assist: 55 ind.

with 90%: (80% + Moon)
Initial Colony = 5 ind.
1 DS = 19 ind.
2 DS = 30 ind.
3 DS = 45 ind.
4 DS = 57 ind.

with 100%: (+Industrialists)
Initial Colony = 6 ind.
1 DS = 20 ind.
2 DS = 32 ind.
3 DS = 48 ind.
4 DS = 60 ind.

DRATH +25% MP racial +30% MP viatechbonuses +20% Industrialists + ASC::

with 75%:
Initial Colony = 5 ind.
1 DS = 17 ind.
2 DS = 28 ind.
3 DS = 42 ind.
4 DS = 52 ind.
5 DS = 64 ind.

with 85% (75% + Moon):
Initial Colony = 5 ind.
1 DS = 18 ind.
2 DS = 29 ind.
3 DS = 44 ind.
4 DS = 55 ind.

DRATH +25% MP +30% techbonuses + ASC::

with 55%:
Initial Colony = 4 ind.
1 DS = 15 ind.
2 DS = 24 ind.
3 DS = 37 ind.
4 DS = 46 ind.
5 DS = 57 ind.

 

Yor can use Tiny Constructors with their own (140%) final Miniaturization-Rating. This helps somewhat in putting the AI scoutships to use or getting more propulsion on them (speed is king in DL :thumbsup: )

 

YOR starting stats: (Industrialists)
Defense: 30%
MilProd: 70%
Econ: 20%
Miniatur: 25% ++
4 tile NB = 25% econ ++

vs.

DRATH starting stats: (Universalists)
Defense: 60% ++
MilProd: 25%
Pop Grow: 80% ++
Diploma: 25% +
Economic: 35%
5 tiles NB

(alternative) DRATH starting stats: (Universalists) 
Defense: 60% ++
MilProd: 25%
Pl Qual: 20% ++
Pop Grow: 30% +
Diploma: 25% +
Economic: 5%
5 tiles NB

(a +10%PQ is also thinkably for both factions...)

Reply #2 Top

What's a VLC ?

Reply #3 Top

a Virtual Reality Center on chinese^^ yeah I need to correct this...

Reply #4 Top

Boy is this app f*d up. 

I'm playing DA as Evil Dregin.  Gifted 200 SD Corvettes.  Let's go negative!  Upgraded them all (5500+ military rating) and went 250,000 bc into debt.  Obviously factories stopped producing but I was able to keep enough production going to survive using the focus, as described.

Problem is, after I got back into the green, Research came back BUT NOT PRODUCTION.  All my factories still produce zilch.  Focus still works as before. 

I tried restarting; reloading a good save (produced as normal); pushing ahead several turns.  Nothing works. 

Any ideas?

 

NEVER MIND. 

 

Still got the sliders set for 100% research.  Fool.

 

Reply #5 Top

500 Military (Might?) Rating isn't a big deal, although if the AIs don't have much own MMR you may be able to swindle them.

Also, I don't think that the NB strat is actually helpful IF you intent to come out of debt at some time. Because, the production from focus will still costs you money, thus delaying the time until you come positive again.

Although, if your planets do have some reasonable levels of population, it might actually be helpful if you focus on social production & use that to fill your planets with Fertility Clinics or Market Centers or the Recruiting Center.

And build hulls which can be upgraded to Constructors only at places where there are Galactic Resources.

It's actually more a way to end a game once you have superior technology, perhaps playing an All-Lab strategy (which usually severely lacks in production or ships flying round). At that time, you just go negative & keep producing hulls which will all be upgraded to state-of-the-art warships, troop transports or constructors and you basically wipe the floor with your opponents because none of them will be able to keep up with your ship-output-rate (which should be 1 hull per planet every turn).

In a warfighting game, when you don't care much about score, you could also fill up all remaining tiles of all your planets with somwthing that benefits you mostly, a good combination is Planetary Defense, Farm, Fertility Clinics to make your worlds somewhat impossible to invade. Another option would be to go for max influence.

The Drengin Superability is one of the strongest for warfighting game IMO, because you get ships for free which you can use to bully all others. Just be aware that they only proc one time each turn, that is, don't declare war more often than this. The amount of ships you receive is based on your Military Rating, therefore, it is good if you actually upgrade the SD-Corvettes to your best design, before you declare war on someone else (please note that the game lags one turn behind in updateing the Military Rating component).

Some insane stuff can be done with the Drengin SD. For example, using them to gain a large pool of essentially free ships. It's kinda easy to get up to +100 in very short, for essentially 0 money spent. Once you have enough, and your core worlds have developed reasonably population (use Fertility Clinics) you could upgrade all these Corvettes to Colony Ships and swarm the galaxy with them. Actually there is a bug which one can use in order to replenish the movement-points of fleets holding multiples of Colony Ships (I call this strategy the 'Colony Storm' and will release it detailed soon) and that enables you to put these +100 ships onto planets in 3-4 turns - all around a gigantic abundant galaxy, nomatter from where you been starting.

The effect would be that you're in debt yes, but because of the gigantic amount of population growth afterwards it'll pull you out of that very quickly (and the only thing you really have to do afterwards is to mine out all galactic resources esp. moral & econ) and also build some wonders that help you here.

From that point the game is essentially won, since no AI, even on suicidal, will be able to match your productive powers on the galactic scale. :sun:  So it doesn't really matter that most of them will still stay very annoyed towards you because you constantly declared war on them previously  :rofl:

Reply #6 Top

Typo.  5500+ rating.

 

I came green again the turn after the frowny face showed up.  Is the morale effect permanent?

 

BTW, where the hell is Recruiting Center in DA v 1.82?  Are the tech trees all the same in this version?

 

Thanks for the comments.  Looking forward to the Colony Storm!

 

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting DMF, reply 6

BTW, where the hell is Recruiting Center in DA v 1.82?  Are the tech trees all the same in this version?

there is none, it's TOTA only, sometimes it can get confusing with 3 different versions, esp, as I'm currently playing/investigating mostly DL. BTW the latest DA version is 2.04

Quoting DMF, reply 6
I came green again the turn after the frowny face showed up.  Is the morale effect permanent? 

I wasn't sure on that so I fired DA up in order to check it - turns out DA behave differently than DL.

In DA you get a somewhat HUGE moral-loss even before that "smiley" shows up, somewhere around -10% during the first 24 turns. In DL you got a -1 instantly when going negative, but that stayed like it was until the "smiley" increasingly draged down your morals.

ALthough the "smiley" in Da will work the same - reducing moral by -1, in ever increasing steps. Which means that actually the pre-smiley loss in 24 turns is as heavy as what follows during the next 72 turns (!). So by all means that warning popup should be displayed immediately when going neagtive, and not when most damage is already done.

But back to your question, the moralloss will be undone completely. However, in 2 steps. The one done under the influence of the smiley will be cancelled completely immediately the turn when you go positive. But the other, inital -10% only recover slowly, just like the game brought them, in around 24 turns.

Seriously, why do they need to change such minor things in such a gross way from version to version? :waaaa:

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Maiden666, reply 7

BTW the latest DA version is 2.04

I need to correct myself. It's 2.02 which came with the 2.20 Community Update download. My old UE installations still lists DA as 2.01, so I wonder what they did change? I suspect perhaps the .exe that makes AIP7 colonize outside their borders, but I haven't seen a changelog anywhere documenting that....

Reply #9 Top

Hmm.  That's interesting.  I have 2.01 under the UE installation and I get it when I run

[Pgm Files]\Kalypso\GalCiv2Ultimate\GC2Launch.exe

 

But when I run

[Pgm Files]\Kalypso\GalCiv2Ultimate\DarkAvatar\GC2DarkAvatar.exe

directly I get 1.82.

 

Where the heck is the launcher finding the executable if not in its own subfolder??

 

Reply #10 Top

Yeah, I suspect it has something to do with double-installations.

My "older" UE installation-folder is also located @ Program Files\Kalypso\GalCiv2Ultimate

but the new 2.20 download would create its folder @ Program Files\Stardock Gaming\GalCiv2

I ran into trouble when trying to start a TOTA 2.20 MV game, the game will refer to an older PoliticalParties.xml, but at that time I didn't knew from what location it did take it up. So I deleted the older installation, and then suddenly, DA 2.02 did crash on loading. Turns out that there are some problems with correctly registering the DA 2.02 files. As it were, the 2.02 .exe would load up files from the old Kalypso-folder.... -.-

I found a thread about some of the changes of 2.01 to 2.02. Nothing big but some stuff sounds good, like AIs more aggressively colonizing. Those changes must be right in the .exe so I'm hopeful it'll work okay even in its "cross-installation-state". And I don't wanna mess with the registry manually because that might screw up stuff regarding serials + registering which may prevent me from loading up old MV files (re-playing them etc)

Somehow alot points towards the double-installation. After I installed the new, I couldn't find 2 entries for Gc2 under "Software" so the newer did overwrite the old one in the registry. After I uninstalled the newer one, and tried also to uninstall the older one, I got prompted for an "INSTALL.LOG" - which was nowhere to be found on all drive on my rig (I even did an infile search which took hours!!!!) and without that file the old installation cannot correctly uninstall itself, so its registry informations etc will stay forever... so no matter how often I install the new DA 2.02 its .exe is always going to be refered to the old Kalypso-folder.

This is unbelievable.... :sick: :troll: :waaaa:

Reply #11 Top

[cross-posted]

 

It took the godawful Windoze search function quite a while to search the drive, but it found three DA executables: the one in Kalypso (what the hell is Kalypso? any relation to Impulse?), one in the 2.20 release, and one in the UE Steam installation.  So how is the launcher in Kalypso finding one of the other executables?

 

Reply #12 Top

ah and BTW I think DA 1.82 still has alot of bugs or irrelevant improvements that got later deleted

check this out

https://forums.galciv2.com/forum/164

Reply #13 Top

I think Kalypso is or were the EU distributors for the UE.

I've no clue how that is even remotely possible, because, as of today, I was under the impression that an .exe will hold its own internal links and these should naturally, simply point into its own installation-folder. Because, I'm 100% positive I moved alot of games (= only their installation folder) from one PC to another (because I really get tired with the process of installation itself, why can't these things not simply come standalone???) but nevertheless most games still work well.

Now in this case, not... guess the .exe is taking its links from the registry or whatever. Just a wild guess but what else could it possibly be.

Funny, I deleted the old Kalypso-folder & renamed the new Stardock-folder to be now Kalypso... that works now... but then I can't keep the old 2.01 installation because, even if I place that on a new folder (like Kalypso 2.01) it will then be refered to the new installation, somewhat reverting the bug.

What a mess :S

Reply #14 Top

Aha!  So it does mess with the registry. 

Well this is interesting.  The Kalypso launcher is picking up the executables from the Steam installation: DA 2.01 and TA 2.04.  I bet the launcher refers to the registry that points it to the later installation, the older registry data having been overwritten. 

I see two installations in the Control panel.  One has the Kalypso UE icon (? ball of black yarn) and the other has more a generic one. I suspect that is the 2.20 installation.  Wonder why they'd use a different registry entry for 2.20 when they all share the same data area?

I wonder if uninstalling the Kalypso version would leave the Steam files alone?

 

And yes, the 1.82 version is pretty rough.  The 2.01 installation does load a game saved in 1.82 so I think I'll finish this one with the later executable.

 

 

Reply #15 Top

The Black Yarn Ball should be a tiny Terror Star  XD   (maybe they wrapped some clothes around after all space is cold  :rofl: )

Can't say for sure but even if the uninstall messes with Steam files, Steam should be able to check, validate & repair its files I guess.

Sometimes uninstalls do have a manually option where you can select all files that you wish to uninstall, but I can't say if thats the case. There should also be a logfile for the installation (which is then used to redo these things) or even a pre-uninstall-list (the new 2.20 folder has such a list in the Uninstall-folder)

But we're talking about a list holding several thousand entries. Maybe just trying it out but creating a system-backuppoint, so you can 100% revert any changes might be more convenient. ;)

Reply #16 Top

Hmmph.  Finished that game (wherein I went heavily negative) right at the end of 2229.  Military rating was 11,114 yet scored only 9400 in the military column. Total 64,000 and change.

Maybe those upgraded SD Corvettes weren't worth the half year it took to pay them off.  They did come in handy, though.  I used up almost half of the 200.

Btw, DA is kinda boring after TotA.

 

Reply #17 Top

One thing I don't understand.  Why all the Stock Markets?  If you're going to stay negative, what matters the payoff rate?

 

Reply #18 Top

For score of course |-) - the Economic Score consists mainly of your tax-income. Trade & Tourism make out only a tiny fraction of it.

Depending on what kind of game you play, your Economy-score is usually the 2nd, sometimes 3rd best contributor to the overall score.

In an All-Abundant Millionpointer game it's like this:

  1. Military (60%)
  2. Economy (30%)
  3. Society (7%)
  4. Research (3%)

Ofc these are now very crude samples that might differ from individual play.

Stock Markets, or any economic structure for that matter, are quite effective in raising your tax-income once you reach a high level of racial economic ability. The formula from which your taxes are derived actually multiplies this racial stat against your individual planetary economic-bonus numbers. And in such a game, it's very easy to reach +300% economics if you just mine out all galactic economic resources. Building the MCC adds another +100%. Farming the MCC may add to that further, and then there are still other "techniques" at large (I may -or may not :P - disclose them at some time...) to get it into the thousands. Actually +2000% is doable.

At that number your economic score will even rival your military score.

But at an ordinairy game with +400% economics a generic PQ15 planet may bring you +1000bcs in cash if you just bring pop to 15b-20b and fill the planet up with Stock Market. Without Stock Markets such a planet will only bring +200bcs....

The question is, what better structure could you possibly use to fill your planets with? What structure would better contribute into any score?

Farms - Worst. Above 20b people the moral depreciation becomes so severe it'll call for a alot of Virtual Reality Center, whose bonuses are also severely depreciated and thereby become impotent. Also, the total population number receives a divider before it's translated into raw society score, which makes population a very bad choice for score. Simply rule of thumb 100m people weighs into score like 1 research or 1 bc tax income etc.

Labs - Bad [*]. 1 research contributes to score exactly like 1 bc income. BUT you need to PAY for any research done, which you can't do while being broke, but even if you would play out an economically balanced game it would still be worse than Stocks, because the Stocks actually give you the power to buy stuff, which brings me to the next point:

Factories - Irrelevant. If you play out an All-Economy Strategy (buildings Stocks everywhere) you've got so much money you can actually leasebuy a hull on every planet every turn (until the ever-mounting-up lease-costs shatter your economy) so you don't need to produce ships. In an NB strat you get these hulls via focus from research. No factories required, also note that military or social production don't contribute to score at all.

[*] to add, what you're actually looking for are some specific key-technologies which are required in order to be able to effectively raise score. In that regard research isn't irrelevant, and doing a properly maximized initial research will of course speed up your game & thereby also significantly contribute to your endscore. Nevertheless, once you got all techs you basically shift your attention elsewhere (Military + Economy)

 

Of course you're totally free to try to raise score in alternative ways. In fact I still find out helpful stuff from time to time, the immersion & depth of GalCiv2 is what kind of makes it the greatest game of all times. You could, for example, fill planets with factories & use them to build already max-out weaponized Dreadnoughts to cash in a military score. But you'll have to play for their maintenance which will drastically increase each turn, thus, at some time you're forced to overbuild your factories with Stock Markets anyway....

But I doubt it can rival an Ell-Econ apprach where you make a final bunkrupting Mass-Shipupgrade because you can simply leasebuy more hulls as produce dreadnoughts before going broke (with these hulls all turning into Dreadnoughts anyway...)

And in no way could it possibly match an NB strat - because it enables you to raise an IMMENSE early military score in combination to an mediocre economic score (which later will be maxed, too, once you've got enough ships simply overbuild all Labs with Stocks....)

Reply #19 Top

Nevertheless, if you don't play for score you could fill it with any structure which may help you to achieve victory:

- Embassy etc to flip planets and win culturally

- Planetary Defenses... maybe if you picked a too high level of difficulty with the AI having space superiority

- More labs = perhaps producing large hulls which, in opposition toi cargo hulls, can put up a real fight.

Reply #20 Top

I really liked the idea of stuffing certain critical planets with Planetary Defenses to stymie an invasion.  But alas, TotA PDs are One Per Planet.  X|

 

Also counted the number of habitable worlds generated for all-Abundant, largest Loose galaxy in TotA, rare asteroids.  Three counts all had a result very close to 550.

Is it possible to get more worlds than that in different games and configurations?

 

 

Reply #21 Top

Only with cheats, where you can turn all PQ0 into a randon PQ1-20... DA also has more planets