jafo
what makes those two facts important and relevant?

And Jafo, DUNE is a great read.

Yes...if you learn only one thing from this thread, make it the content of Bakerstreet's post number #1226.

[except for 'atricities'...'atrocities'... ]

Xerraire... We are judged on masse...

We are not judged as individuals...but rather as a mass clump of Americans.

We ARE all separate. Just as I bet the Iraqui people are as well.

Jenny purposely says,

"Jafo, spelchek meee"

Xerraire...
One day, the vocal, voting majority will demand their continued 'right' to personal private transport....at a similarly affordable standard.
One day, Industrial giants will coerce governments into maintaining their profit levels via continued availability of fossil fuels and their by-products.
The 'Industrialized West' will be looking even more closely at dwindling reserves and be seeking a 'solution'.

This isn't rocket science....simply the pressure of supply and demand...

jafo: unfortunately "[who buys/uses them at present is irrelevant]" isn't so. In order for you to say that we are doing this for oil you need to prove that we *need* the oil enough to warrant the expense. Last time I checked we get 18% of our oil from Iraq. Saudi Arabia alone has said they can adjust output and offset a total loss of Iraq's oil for the duration of any conflict.

Do you really think the amount of benefit we may get from a new Iraq is anything to compared to the 100+ billion dollars this is gonna cost? France's whole oil deal with Saddam was only worth 60 billion... We'd have to get our oil for free for quite a while to make up for this. You think the rest of the Middle East would allow that?

...and while "The US is the largest 'user' of fossil fuels on the planet.", what percentage of the world economy would you expect we account for? You get what you pay for.


Maybe if we *all* burned alcohol instead of 'petrol', there'd not be a problem. Next time you are dodging one of those 'efficiency' Porsches, lasso it for me.

...even if we don't "need" the oil... im sure someone wouldn't mind making something off the "spoils" huh? =P

jennyc - you're dead on about Saddam Hussein, but your attack on paxx is based on something you can't possibly know: the deepest intentions which underlie his life ideology. he's made it clear in earlier parts of this thread that he has honest convictions and the courage to live them. i'm an old vietnam-era warhorse who volunteered for the war when other safe options were available. if i can have the utmost respect for paxx's point of view with regard to human life, then it shouldn't be that hard for people to understand.

sorry, paxx, i know you don't need me defending you - as you said earlier, you've "heard all the rhetoric before".

geez, you guys type fast.

#1209 by bakerstreet -

wasn't Nigeria or was it Algeria the first that was under consideration for the state of Israel
before Palestine was divided up?

Baker.....convince me that were the reserves in Iraq permanently made unavailable to the West [yes, I know, they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face], that the resultant reshuffling of 'options' would not result in adverse changes to the Oil price, and therefore have a significant global effect on world economy.

Admittedly, an earthquake in Tokyo would be MORE profound, but still, energy pricing is pivotal to the Global Community [not 'just' the US]...

#1226 by bakerstreet - 4/1/2003 9:03:41 PM
jennyc: that was out of line. If there were a lot more people like paxx in the world, there wouldn't be as many problems as there are.

Hmm. I disagree. I believe in peace but I also believe in fighting for what is right. I want peace but not at the cost of losing my voice...my so soul...my rights...

Paxx is a big boy... You can stick up for him but I'm sure he could care less what I think of him anyhow.

How much 'losing' does one need to feel they better start fighting in order to win back what they lost?

I lost my feeling of safety in America.

How prejudiced has it made us Americans?

I can ONLY speak for myself but...

I was in Costco today and getting some supplies for my small business and sure enough there was a muslum couple (I only knew this because they weren't wearing Western clothing and the woman hand her head swathed in a head covering).

Now...I was a bit curious and looked her over for a few seconds and then went back at my tasks. Now I could have been TOTALLY paranoid and figured they might be some suicide bombers or people planting some sort of creepy bio-attacks but nope. Not even a second glance to them and I was fine.

That's me, and American who loves their fellow American no matter what race or religion...we are IN THIS TOGETHER and I don't EVER want an American Muslum person to feel bad for being themselves in my Country.

Until the point is hammered home...that we are Freeing a people almost ENSLAVED by a sick regime who is willing to rap, kill and mame at any flicker of dissention then we still have a LONG way to go.

willing to rap?

Rape.

Rap...hmm...that should go too. KIDDING

"I don't EVER want an American Muslum person to feel bad for being themselves in my Country" - jennyc
this reads funny - maybe "my" should be "our".

So, Jafo
The implication of what you say and how you answered me is that you seem to be able to tell the future. Or at the very least you really put two and two together and only see one reason for us to be in Iraq...?

Are you sure in that crystal ball of yours there isn't something else to run our vehicles with apart from oil in teh future?

I'd really like to comment but my 'Freedom of Speech' has been revoked ...
One answer for Baker, re your question about 'insider information', I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you!
Nah!
Just joshing .... it helps if you wear a uniform at times like this, one knows rather more than the 'Media Drones'!
That will probably get me permanently exiled now.

Bangkokboy

"I don't EVER want an American Muslum person to feel bad for being themselves in my Country" - jennyc
this reads funny - maybe "my" should be "our".

I have learned early on NEVER to speak for anyone but myself. It is MY opinion in MY country. That is what makes America Great. Never force my opinion into 'our' opinon...it loses not only its meaning...but it becomes a generalization that not every person of my country may feel or abide by.

your opinion does not need to be inclusive. your country does.

Xerraire...those who forget the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them...

No-one needs to look forward to predict the future...just look backward and observe its repetition...

@ wombat.

jennyc....'Muslum' WILL make them feel 'bad'.....'Muslim' perhaps will not.... or perhaps 'Moslem' [also OK]...

Explain to it to me then? The part about the relevancy of the oil here? I mean, what bakerstreet said kinda knocked down what you were saying about how we personally really don't need the oil from Iraq. In fact, its costing us perhaps more than its worth?
I don't mean to sound ignorant, but quotes like mistakes of history and repeating them, just doesn't explain to me your point of view, which I am trying very hard to understand.

Hey Jafo are you rich yet from getting 5 cents for every mis-spell?

BTW kudos Jenny. I'm on your side.

Xerraire...I'm not saying the 'cost' of the War is to be totally, entirely balanced by the potential 'value' of Oil reserves and/or control, but it MUST be a contributing factor. It [the oil] cannot be ignored and is factored into the overall purpose/expectations of the conflict and its outcome. To claim otherwise is to be naive in the extreme.
A finite, but very, very valuable natural resource can be a tool, a bargaining weapon with rival [to the West] countries...Iraq offers oil, gets WMDs in return, etc.
It is therefore imperative that Saddam's capacity/ability to 'purchase' things we'd all rather he didn't, be curtailed, hence the War.
In all reality, humanitarian issues relating to the plight of the Iraqi people will play second fiddle to the de-clawing of Saddam's potential to Terrorise the West in general, and [grudgingly] a by-product of that is ONLY maybe a slight improvement in the 'lot' of the Arab 'peoples'.