Are base defenses in a good place?

from AshesoftheSingularity Forums

1. Are they seeing widespread use? 

2. What could be done to improve them?

3. Would something like the star base be useful. Slow moving very powerful but has movement restrictions

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Reply #1 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

orbital bombardments might make defense a bad thing anyway

Reply #2 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I would like to see base defenses improve a little. Id like to suggested defender units. These units would be built like a normal unit maybe from their own factory but would move faster than others but would take some time to deploy once they have arrived where they will be used. Would be kind if cool to roll up take over an area then bring the base defenses in. Just my humble suggestion but I would like to see defenses get some love.  

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Reply #3 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Well the drone bays are soooooooooooooooooo good and cheap to spam, you get them on a position and holy crap they wreck.

I like the current defences if anything i would enjoy some tier 2 style defensive turrets or arty like the Big bertha or the vulcan in TA.

Reply #4 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Smarties are cheap and mostly useful for keeping cheap econ raiders from stealing regions, yeah.

Sentinels are hardcore death machines, but they're expensive and slow to build - and they get wrecked by Artemis (the anti-building missile they have is brutal), Nemesis (if it gets to shoot, heh), Prometheus, and bombers.

Falcons...probably need some love. Mostly I build Furies ;)

A lot of people love a more defensive, turtle-y playstyle, and that's probably something we could support more (usual disclaimer: Frogboy's the lead designer, convince him). The problem from a design perspective is that the stronger we make defenses, the longer games take (and they can get real, real long) and get stuck in bad (aka boring) stalemates where e.g. your team has two VPs bunkered up, the other team has the same, and neither of you can do much to crack the defensive lines.

Cronus + Artemis battlegroups with solid radar coverage make excellent defenders, btw. I know they're not turrets, but they are quite effective at tearing apart incoming bad guys.

Reply #5 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

In most RTSes, static defense has a cost/benefit logic as follows:

1.  More expensive than a single equivalent-tier unit.

2.  More efficient in damage/durability than a mobile unit of the same cost.

3.  Immobile.  When players put resources into static defense, it reduces the size of the army they field or slows them down in some other way - it reduces their offensive potential in the near term, and that defense can just be avoided and the player can be struck from another direction.


I think the hitching point in a lot of games is #2 - how much more efficient?  I think defenses in AOTS are appropriately strong when combined with a significant terrain advantage.   Natural chokepoints and elevated terrain drastically increase the effectiveness of defensive emplacements.  If AOTS did not have an infinite resource model, I would advocate a buff - but as it is, they are good enough to stop medium-sized aggression with proper positioning and investment.

Right now I think it's in a good spot, but having some more specialized defensively-oriented units might not be a bad thing in a game that's all about taking/holding territory - I'd rather have less-mobile defensive units that I can reposition to cover expanding flanks while I push a front line, for example.

 

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Reply #6 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I liked base defenses to start with especially the new laser turret, but quickly realized they really are under-powered the moment the computer gets any artillery or a t3 they walk all over it, it becomes a stalemate or simply who ever captures the most metal points the quickest wins type game.  ultimately it seemed better building units, and since they are still difficult to select on mass and organised i found the initial joy at how awesomeness the map style and the hardness of the ai fad a bit and it all felt just lacking in overall depth that say sup com had in its base defense diversity that you could build very good forward bases which turned into offence, a consequence of allowing a enemy to fortify a position.  just some experience from 7 hrs the other night. 

Reply #7 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting tatsujb, reply 1

base defenses are underpowered in my opinion (mostly it's about not enough spectrum and the low end of the spectrum being too low).

here's my experience :

I set up a line of plasma cannons 14 strong (2*7) backed up by two repair bays. (the def+repair bay combo is worlds apart from def alone)

 

and that held of pretty nicely against 2 swarms composed each of one dreadnought some 15 t2 

but the third swarm which was only a little bit bigger completely decimated it. 

 

it takes forever to build these plasma cannons (4-5 times as long as a dreadnought) 

so I felt I was at a disadvantage defending. (which is not a bad thing)

 

I do feel there should be higher tiers of defense for when you really wanna hold against multiple dreadnoughts (which would be pretty cool if it were a thing).

 

also the gap between plasma cannons and the rocket launchers (sorry I'm using my own names) is way too big. One is decently fast to construct and is worth absolutely nothing (the rocket one obviously. I found that their only use was to have one in the mix of defenses otherwise the AI can sent a small group of t1 at you and those will be able to do what they want because the plasma cannon refuses to fire at t1 units. The thing is they're highly ineffective against t1 in larger numbers. fun thing to note : The plasma cannon will fire, on the other hand, at engineers.)

but plasma cannons are by FAAR what you really wanna have on the field. from what I could tell they one-shot most t2s and if you have a line of 14 of them like I did t3 simply dissipate before them. (until they come two or three at a time)

Agreed on all points.  I find static defenses useful in the early game before I can fully deploy Dreads and useless thereafter.  I tend to deploy lines of defenses in critical spots on the map more as early warning systems and to slow enemy units down a bit if they make it past my front-line units, than because I think they are all that effective.

This game wants to focus on massive armies battling it out, though, so I guess under powered defenses makes sense.  That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them buffed a bit.

Reply #8 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Currently, even 2-line sentinel battery backed with smarty missiles, drones and repair bays can't hold army for long. The most lacking part is the counter to missile units. Larger, expensive defenses with more range and stopping power would be really useful - currently I'm stuck with guarding chokepoints by groups of T1 units led by a dreadnought, and that is not optimal due to HP wear after several attacks.

Reply #9 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I would love to see CIWS systems (point-defence against missiles, I suppose you could say). Like this bad boy; http://www.doolwind.com/images/blog/phalanx.jpg

Imagine the barrage of missiles coming in, and the awesome-looking rapid-fire shooting some of them down! I've always loved that look in games (and on the Galactica ;) ).

Reply #10 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

We think Ashes does need a heavy, stationary artillery defense building.  Not sure we'll get it in before ship though.

Reply #11 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 12

We think Ashes does need a heavy, stationary artillery defense building.  Not sure we'll get it in before ship though.

Very cool -- glad to hear something is in the works.

Reply #13 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I posted this on steam just wanted to see what you guys think 

 

So you have your factory built and you have your engineers extracting and capturing. The next step for me (and I assume most) is to start building your army. I feel like army placement is where that fork happens do I send my first units to the front lines or are they going to be part of my flank team. However I think the addition of a few "defensive" units might help make that choice more meaningful. Something like the seige tank from StarCraft except it can't defend itself while not in "seige mode" with a long spool up for the unit to enter this mode it would prevent it from being overly useful in attacking. 

These units could make that strategic choice:

1 I could build defensive units if I'm making the choice that I'm going to try and hold a certain area and expand with FOBs

2. I could forgo making any defensive units and instead focus on my strike team.