Faction theming - Returning the factions to their roots


I beilieve that there are relics of this game, back from ye olden days of beta's past, that should be removed and cleaned up; design decisions that changed core faction mechanics that shouldn't exist anymore due to how the game has evolved since.  


Let me start this with a discussion on scientific. My current belief on them is that they are generally weak. Perhaps I am right, perhaps I'm jsut bad at scientific ever since the debt change, perhaps I'm just not used to them not being OP anymore. This has occured mainly because they lost their double-speed research, they were jsut dominating every game with it , so it was removed. Later it was decided that what was actually OP was the engineering labs themselves, so they were significantly nerfed, but science never got back their science bonus. This means scientists science theme is basically non-existent in my eyes, especially since scientists patents got hurt for no reason. Perhaps it might need to be returned, perhaps it's better to leave it dead. However, this personal opinion still doesn't cloud my judgement in this: Scientists need to lose their black market protection. Why? What gives? I just siad they were weak and I want them to be even weaker? Thing is, how are we supposed to know these days which black markets scientific has protection from? From an outside perspective I can imagine that it seems odd an arbitary that they are protected against some black markets, and not against others.It feels like an out-dated mechanic, made for when EMP and power surge were always there. Scientists were very powerful back then, so it makes sense to put in black market effects that can be used against scientific with full effectiveness. However, this has meant that their bonus lacks any sort of logical consistency when you look at the game as a whole. Indeed, after review I honestly think that certain black markets perhaps were put in primarily to deal wth scientific. It feels the black market has been designed around scientific, either conciously or unconciously. This makes it so that my entire decision of whether or not to found scientific depends on what the black market is, not anythign else. If there's EMP and power surge, the scientists will win, because they have resistance. If new claims and adrenaline boost are on the market, again scientists will do very well. If it's pretty much anything else, they will lose. Why then is the scientific faction the one that relies the most on the black market RNG? Surely the scavengers should be the ones to care about the black market the most, yet I find my decision of foudning scavenger is almost completly dependant on the amount of carbon I could make and if there's enough water on the map to rush to offworlds or not, if there isn't then scavenger can be incredibly strong beccause their offworlds are usually later than everyone elses. Indeed, black market is my third or maybe even fourth consideration with scavenger, whereas it's top priority as scientific. This is in my eyes a serious issue, when an entire gameplay defining factor of a faction is not consistent with them thematically. I suggest we remove this bonus, now for a different reason than I asked for those months ago. This time it's not strength, but just wrong design-wise.

 


Similiarly, as I mentioned before I ignore the black market when choosing scavenger. This is becaus they usuallyhve less funds early game than other factions, they become unable to make use of their bonus until late-game, unless there is new claims on the market. Why do I declare this a problem now compared to before, in previous beta's when the black market was such a defining factor of the faction? Well, it's because a lot fo the time, you don't want to use the current black market effects much. New claims, EMP's, Power surges, these will always be strong, in a 1 vs 1 particularly you wil always throw one at your opponent when the market is off cooldown, but these days the black market is jsut so inconcsistent. You do not want to spam magnetic storms, slowdown strikes or network virus off cooldown, you want to save those for when they cna be most devestating, and those opportunities nearly always crop up within minutes of eachother so you don't need scavengers bonus. This interacts in a similar way with other factions too, if a strong effect is on the black market, such as a new claim, you can be sure that your not goign to be able to buy it as a scavenger consistently off cooldown. Why? Because the rest of the market will not be so powerful, so everyone will be getting as much of the strong stuff as they can early on. This black market gold rush leaves scavengers behind because they jsut don't have the funs to get in there intime. If there were more strong effects, the scavenger could be guaranteed to have some cheap options to choose from later on that are also worth it to spam off cooldown. They were always later to those initial purchases, but before people would be buying a variety of things, so once you got your income properly established you could rain down the effects. As it is though, you will never have the funds to buy things off cooldown unless they're not worth buying off cooldown. Also, what about spies or holograms? I woudl argue holograms have become the most important black market item in the game now, but they don't have a cooldown. If they had a cooldown then perhaps it would be worth being a scavenger to use the bonus, but these black market effects were deemed too weak with a cooldown, so it was removed. They were buffed in such a way as to ignore the scavenger bonus, and just like scientifics this has made their overall bonus much more inconsistent. Their bonus just does not fit the design of how they are played. I don't believe this bonus needs to exist for them right now. However, at the same time, this was always how they should be themed. Do we want to take that next step to change the factions very roots? I will provide what I believe to be a compromise shortly, but if we keep the black market bonus then we need to make the black market as a whole stronger or more consistent so that it's worth the lower cooldown and allows scavenger to transition back into that sabotaging style and make it work.

Finally, robotics adjacency bonuses. Need I say more? If you have 3 steel mills and use an iron mine to get adjacency, that's +0.2 steel per second. Ever since the adjacency change this bonus has been near-worthless. It's just un-necissary complexity, something for a new player to learn for no reason. This should just be removed or buffed to be good enough for people to consider it. The only saving grace this has is with dry ice. However, the new interactions with power is cool. I really like the idea of being able to improve mines, which you can't always get the adjacency of. If a building has absolutly no adjacency then the new power adjacency will be great, and sometimes a high tile can't get adjacency. It's so good infact that I treat it as a completly seperate mechanic to what robots already have.Thematically speaking robots have become the factiosn that requires no life support, and less aluminium because they're efficient. They are no longer tile efficient, they're now debt and PRIMARY RESOURCE tile efficient. Let''s remove the relics of the old design, and approach things like the power adjacency without the previous design getting in the way.


Now, these things arn't easy thigns to fix, but I have an idea I#'ve been toying around with and bouncing off of some players these last few weeks. Let's focus on the HQ's themselves, not their faction, not their bonus, but the actual building itself. Did you know you can click it? you actually get a menu. Pretty mcuh all it has is an upgrade button, and it seems to just waste space honestly. Let's actually make these buildings useful, let's improve the factions themes by giving each HQ building a unique effect, soemthing you can do by visiting the HQ building itself.


To me, the most obvious one is the scientific HQ. Let's make it a patent lab. Let's make it so that scientists have a patent lab from level 1, something that cannot be attacked by anyone, and something that fits the theme of science very clearly. The patents honestly aren't all that used right now, and the biggest reason for it is that building a patent lab wastes a tile that could be spent doing literally anything else. We're not lowering the cost of the patents themselves, indeed as a scientist you might almost never want to spend your money researching something, or maybe you want to research as market demands change. When you actually have a patent lab up, you can interact and react with the market through the use of patents in very interesting ways, I used to be a personal fan of the level 3 scientific patent lab back in the day,but no one wants to spend the tile when tiles are so important, especially with new claims rarely being on the black market. It also doesn't necissarily lock other peopel out of a patent if they desperatly want it, your HQ is not attackable but it also isn't adrenaline boostable. If 2 players suddenly decide they want a patent at the sane time, well the non-scientific player can still beat them to the patent. Tons of strategies would open up to the scientific player, and I don't think it would make them any more or less over-powered than they are now, because a patent is almost an entire upgrades worth of money early game.


Hopefully with that you can see how mcuh of a benefit making a HQ it's own building can be for a faction, and it can be used to fit themes so eprfectly. Another idea I really like is one for robotic. Have them have the ability to make mules from their HQ. They may or may not have a cooldown, but the idea of robots making other robots to mine primary resource tiles and further being claim efficient fits the robots very well in my eyes. This doesn't mean the black amrket cannot also contain mules, but mules being on a seperate cooldown for robots from the rest of their black market will still make it worthwhile. Heck, if there is a mule cooldown for their HQ's then a robot can go double super-muler! Perhaps it would be interesting as well to have the mules cost resources instead of have a fixed cost, such as costing a certain amount of aluminium and electronics. This means that it might actually become worth it for a robot to go into electronics because they keep driving the price of electronics up by buying mules, compared to how they play now which is only elecronics at level 5 because other things are worth more.


Now, this gets a little more tricky for scavenger and expansive, because these are both much stronger factions that could spiral out of control if we give them too much. The way I'd like scavengers theme to go however means that I would liek their HQ to offer them a second set or maybe even every non-goonsquad black market effect, at a high starting cost (say 10K). This means that instead of saying 'oh this black market is bad, I shoudl go expansive' you might say 'oh this black market is bad, scavenger would be amazing here because in the late game I could sabotage people without fear of repercussion myself, and without the prices being already insane because everyone else has bought everything before I could get to the late game', or you might not because your no where near so verbose. Now, this would provide them a lot of consistency, but RNG would still unfortuantly be there but that's just the nature of the black market. This would not work though if goon squad won't always spawn on the black market, it would jsut be insane if you couldn't defend yourself from a scavengers attacks. Infact, slgiht tangent here, could we please always have goon squad on the black makret no matter what? It's jsut dumb when you can't defend yourself from EMP, makes the game so unfun.


Expansive is the one I struggle with thinking of an idea for though. I think the main reason for that is because Ifeel they more powerful than everyone else right now, and so I'm hesitant to provide them with anything new. Nevertheless, an idea with keeping to the expansive theme would be to provide them with a pleasure dome-esque system. Expansive HQ's are big and use a lto of life support, I would expect there to be a lot of living spaces you could perhaps rent out to the local inhabitants. Perhaps a system similar to the campaign mode, where you can build extra housing within your own HQ. Then when you open up the housing, 'turn them on', they consume life support and give you a fixed income inexchange. This would somewhat fit their theme as the most life-support using faction, and the net effect of it would be your not earning much from the housing, but your effectively having the colony pay for extra life-support, injecting demand for it onto the market. Soem peopel argue scientists are the king of life support, but the faction that benefits most from more life-support demand being put into the market is expansive, this would allow them to use their large amount of claims even more effectively becuase seriously, it's never any fun when all the resources onworld suck and your jsut slowly winning an offworld race. Infact, this potentially could allow them to focus more on onworld goods and less on the offworld rush, which thematically isn't quite what I personally think expansive shoudl be focussed around.

Thanks for all those who read it all, for those who didn't no TL;DR for you! :P

52,406 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top

Sigh... Reading through this I realize I have no idea what the current colony bonuses are. I do agree that the colony's should be re-focused onto their theme. The changes have made the colonies more similar than they ever were, so tweaking their perks to differentiate them more would help.

Reply #2 Top

Hopefully this is not a horrible spoiler punishable by death penalty. :P

 

 

Reply #3 Top

that'll help but I doubt it'll solve many of the core issues I talked about, the big deal with the patent lab is still the initial time and tile investment, the classes probably won't affect how scavenger can be played, scientific are still not all that sciency and still will be all about the black market. Glad to see yet another financial instruments buff :P

Reply #4 Top

Scientifically specifically - I think you might be struggling with scientific because you aren't going for the early patent lab. I still play scientific and robotic about 50/50 and I, in general, have an easier time winning with Scientific 1v1 or FFA. The early patent lab is still important for scientific because early patents are KEY for controlling your debt. The cheapest patents are geared towards controlling your power consumption, and therefore controlling debt. Grabbing one or 2 of them early gives you more stock price protection, and also increases your claim usage efficiency. Halving your power consumption means you run up power debt half as quickly, and when you build power to control the consumption, you need only half as many power claims to meet your basic need. Extra go to reducing your debt.

Additionally, since other players are shunning the patent lab, its easier to get the long term high value patents such as slant drilling or carbon scrubbing, without having to rush them.

I still wouldn't mind scientific receiving the faster research bonus back again since it was a nice perk that fit the colony type. I don't think getting a free patent lab is the correct direction though. That is too much of a freebie and would cause foreseeable problems with respect to certain patents. E.G financial instruments would basically be free money over the course of the game as there's no way it wouldn't pay itself back, unless everyone else carries no debt, which won't happen with the current game mechanics.

Reply #5 Top

To me scientific being resistant against electromagnetic attacks is perfectly sciency.

I agree that scientific is greatly empowered by the right black market and so is every faction.

Scavenger can steamroll pretty bad as long as the black market favors it, ie. if it can reliably recoup its investments in the black market 2x or more (with pirates, mutinies, claims, etc). I agree that scav is extremely dependent on the high/medium carbon tiles, preferably with a 3rd to form a triangle. I don't know if this is wrong, I'm okay with it as I never found scav without a high/med carbon tile anyway.

I regularly go patent lab, though I have to say it is mostly with expansive and not scientific because they can make adv buildings fairly cheap. The nanotech patent is too good to pass up especially for robotic and scientific because they otherwise have to use tons and tons of steel to adjust to the changing markets and because offworld recycling is a very valid strategy when you have to cut corners to buy another company before some critical juncture in a games progression.

I like your idea of turning the HQ into an advanced building of sorts, but I think it perhaps needs to be limited and only starting from HQ2 forwards. What I'm thinking of a one time use patent lab for scientific, a one time use hacker array for scavengers, 2 time use engineering bay for robotic and a 60 or 120 minute pleasure dome for expansive (can be activated once at any time and perhaps even at HQ1).

I don't know what it'd look like but I'd like some sort of interaction between the HQ and the colony too. (In MP) I'd like any additional interactivity with the colony for that matter.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting indczn1, reply 4

Scientifically specifically - I think you might be struggling with scientific because you aren't going for the early patent lab. I still play scientific and robotic about 50/50 and I, in general, have an easier time winning with Scientific 1v1 or FFA. The early patent lab is still important for scientific because early patents are KEY for controlling your debt. The cheapest patents are geared towards controlling your power consumption, and therefore controlling debt. Grabbing one or 2 of them early gives you more stock price protection, and also increases your claim usage efficiency. Halving your power consumption means you run up power debt half as quickly, and when you build power to control the consumption, you need only half as many power claims to meet your basic need. Extra go to reducing your debt.

Additionally, since other players are shunning the patent lab, its easier to get the long term high value patents such as slant drilling or carbon scrubbing, without having to rush them.

I still wouldn't mind scientific receiving the faster research bonus back again since it was a nice perk that fit the colony type. I don't think getting a free patent lab is the correct direction though. That is too much of a freebie and would cause foreseeable problems with respect to certain patents. E.G financial instruments would basically be free money over the course of the game as there's no way it wouldn't pay itself back, unless everyone else carries no debt, which won't happen with the current game mechanics.

Thing is, what's stopping you from going patent lab with expansive instead? Isn't that just straight up better because you have more claims and the steel reduction bonus? It's a serious problem when scientific are not the best scientists. You have a valid strategy, but it feels that any faction except scavenger could do the same strategy with the same or better effectiveness than scientific.

Also, I believe strongly that halved research time is much stronger than a free patent lab. Your also forgetting it's a free lab, not free research. Chems start at what? $100? Your telling me that before HQ 3 you would pay $14,000 of FUNDS for financial instruments in a 4 player FFA. I just don't see that paying itself off. Even if it makes double the money you spent on it over just 3 days that's still too expensive because your basically forgoing half an upgrade, and trust me, you won't make your money back over just 3 days unless your opponent is gameslayer989 because he's debt spiraling hard :P

 

Quoting Cubit32, reply 5


I like your idea of turning the HQ into an advanced building of sorts, but I think it perhaps needs to be limited and only starting from HQ2 forwards. What I'm thinking of a one time use patent lab for scientific, a one time use hacker array for scavengers, 2 time use engineering bay for robotic and a 60 or 120 minute pleasure dome for expansive (can be activated once at any time and perhaps even at HQ1).

Well, honestly starting from HQ2 onwards is almost exactly the same as starting from HQ1, because no one in their right mind would hack something/research something/spend money on a mule/make a house at level 1 and delay their first upgrade, unless it's an 8 man game where it's possible to get away with virtually anything, so I disagree and think it should be level 1 but at the same time completly agree because I just said level 1 and 2 are the same? Eh, guess I'll say I don't care if it's level 1 or 2, but definitly before level 5 :P

Reply #7 Top

Perhaps this is why I suck with expansive :P

edit:  I see your point and don't have an argument.

Reply #8 Top

Just my two cents on game design, referring to cubit and duelkings discussion about when the bonuses should be available, HQ1, 2 or even later. Just because players should not take advantage of these unique bonuses at level 1, does not mean they wont. You have to take into account the new player experience and the general curve of learning and game sense. While you are all masters of the game in your own way, gating the ability to use these HQ specific bonuses behind a certain HQ upgrade is healthy to teach new players.

 

Coming from a starcraft background, you are limited in your tech tree as Zerg by the level of your HQ. Yet even if you were allowed to build tier 3 units from the start of the game, they would not necessarily be the best option. Professional players would be able to take advantage of a player waiting 10 minutes to get their first ultralisk out and kill them with a rush down strategy well before they got off the ground. Yet this is not the only reason the units are locked away behind HQ upgrades. New players feel less overwhelmed when there is a general curve of what is possible at different points in the game, and players feel good when they unlock new abilities throughout the course of their actions. Combine this with the strategic cost of upgrading your hatchery in Starcraft, and you have the tactical element of when to upgrade and get new build options combining with a nice and natural new player experience.

 

I have tried to introduce some friends to this game, and several of them agree that it is quite overwhelming at the start of the game. "So many resources to track, such a unique feel to the game, no background experience of any game even remotely like this," adding new options at the start may be fun for experienced players to take advantage of as cheesy strategies, but think of game flow and the learning curve.

 

I love discussions like this and think there are some awesome ideas presented here, and I do not mean to speak ill of anyone's contributions, but remember that not every player who touches this game will be a master, or have watched streams or read wikis and forums about it. I think a level 3 HQ unlocking new special abilities would be amazing. The voiceover could announce your HQs new ability, you have teched half way to tier 5 and get rewarded for that, and you receive a unique faction benefit at a time when it could be critical with players having the option to secure the funds necessary to actually take advantage of these bonuses.

Reply #9 Top

I think you've touched an important point here. Being able to unlock new abilities gradually as the game progresses contributes a lot to game flow and also opens a possibility for long term strategies or beelines. Special buildings just don't cut it. However [devil's advocate mode], that would add a whole new layer of complexity, thus will hurt the AI which quality is already questionable. We might not care about that, because those who post in here, including myself, are mostly interested in multiplayer. But there's an entire world of Average Joes who are not necessarily looking for the same experience. I think it's very easy to overdo it if the goal is to keep the concept as simple, clean and transparent as possible. [/devil's advocate mode] All that being said, from my experience, Average Joes love flavor, So adding some to the factions, if done right, would be a win win.  

 

As for introducing new players to OTC, I agree it's quite overwhelming at the beginning, mainly because the tutorial is not so great at the moment and you really have to watch some streams/videos in order to get a solid grasp of what's going on. Hopefully that will also change at some point. Otherwise new players are doomed to wait ages for Gameslayer's videos.  ;P  (Yes, I a man of my word, Gameslayer)