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Carrier Balance Idea

Carrier Balance Idea

Thoughts

Paul has been struggling with balancing carriers for a while.  Here are my thoughts on how they could be balanced.

First off each carrier has x small ships based on the number of modules correct?  These small ships should count toward the logistics cap in the fleet.  Maybe not at full value but, they should count.  Otherwise it's almost as if you could have a fleet with 120 logistics ships (assuming you just filled a fleet with small ships) but, in reality it may only be 20 logistics points.  

Additionally I think it should be limited per hull type tiny and small ships shouldn't be able to have carrier modules by design after all how can tiny and small ships carry additional small ships here are my limit ideas...

Limits Should Be

0 - tiny and small

1 - medium

2 - large

3 - Huge or Cargo

Current What I can do

For instance in my current game I can build a carrier module on the following ship types...

1 carrier module on a tiny ship?  Really how can a tiny ship carry small ships?

3 carrier modules on a small ship?  Really I can stack that many hidden ships on a small ship? Doesn't seem right.

What does everyone think?

 

Ideas from the replies so far...

Something needs to be done with carrier modules.

  • Most seem to be okay with limiting carrier modules per ship type or greatly increasing cost/size of modules.
  • The fighters on carriers should be tiny and or count some against logistics cap.
  • If fighters don't count against logistics cap, the modules should.
  • Enemies should target carriers if in range.
  • Carriers should be a little more powerful than ships without carriers.

Fighters should not be the best of the best.

  • Instead should be either created from a pool selected by the player.
  • Should only re-spawn over time or in (ZOC) or by docking at a shipyard/star base/planet.
  • Fighters should have their own tech tree to be researched.
230,997 views 71 replies
Reply #51 Top

Quoting a0152570, reply 50

hay bud


Good recap.  Don't see the above 2 as being feasible or more accurately (cause SD can do anything :grin: ) attention would be better spent elsewhere imo.

 

 

Splitting off the techs would take like 20 minutes tbh.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting a0152570, reply 49

Hi TurielD

really like the direction of your mod.  Can logistics cost be add?  if so just wondering why you didn't.

 

  

 

I think so, I've seen someone mention something about it (maybe even in this thread?) but I couldn't find the right syntax for it.. so I kinda just don't know how :P

 

Quoting naselus, reply 51


Quoting a0152570,

hay bud


Good recap.  Don't see the above 2 as being feasible or more accurately (cause SD can do anything :grin: ) attention would be better spent elsewhere imo.

 



 

Splitting off the techs would take like 20 minutes tbh.

 

Technically true, but coming up with a special fighter tech tree with its own weapon system and scaling would take a hell of a lot more time than that to balance. Linking the current in-game assets to it alone would take that long, going through each race's individual tech tree.

Actually that reminds me: could someone whip up an interface to move techs (and their associated parts) around, visually? It's honestly a huge pain to change a tech and its dependencies in the current xml format.

Reply #53 Top

Quoting TurielD, reply 48


Quoting dansiegel30,

One thing that could be a very simple change, is that fighters dont carry your best tech weapons, but only the previous generation weapons (perhaps because you need the next tech to miniaturize them to fit on fighters).  Thats a simple offensive combat nerf that could make a simple difference.  The best weapons go on real ships, 2nd best on fighters. 



 

That is not easily programmable with the current way ship designs are set up.

 

Wait, I tell a lie, it is.

 

this is the standard format for weapon techs:

 

Code: xml
  1. <ShipComponent>
  2. <InternalName>Phasors</InternalName>
  3. <DisplayName>Phasors_Name</DisplayName>
  4. <Description>Phasors_Dec</Description>
  5. <ArtDefine>WeaponModel_30</ArtDefine>
  6. <Category>Weapons</Category>
  7. <Type>BeamWeapon</Type>
  8. <PlacementType>Weapon</PlacementType>
  9. <WeaponFX>
  10. <EmissionFX>BeamPhasor_Emission</EmissionFX>
  11. <ProjectionFX>BeamPhasor</ProjectionFX>
  12. <HitFX>BeamPhasor_Hit</HitFX>
  13. <DeflectionFX>BeamPhasor_Deflection</DeflectionFX>
  14. </WeaponFX>
  15. <Stats>
  16. <EffectType>Threat</EffectType>
  17. <Target>
  18. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  19. </Target>
  20. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  21. <Value>1</Value>
  22. </Stats>
  23. <Stats>
  24. <EffectType>BeamManufacturingCost</EffectType>
  25. <Scope>Queue</Scope>
  26. <Target>
  27. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  28. </Target>
  29. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  30. <Value>120</Value>
  31. </Stats>
  32. <Stats>
  33. <EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
  34. <Target>
  35. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  36. </Target>
  37. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  38. <Value>17</Value>
  39. </Stats>
  40. <Stats>
  41. <EffectType>BeamWeapon</EffectType>
  42. <Target>
  43. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  44. </Target>
  45. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  46. <Value>1</Value>
  47. </Stats>
  48. <Stats>
  49. <EffectType>BeamAttack</EffectType>
  50. <Target>
  51. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  52. </Target>
  53. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  54. <Value>16</Value>
  55. </Stats>
  56. <Stats>
  57. <EffectType>Maintenance</EffectType>
  58. <Target>
  59. <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
  60. </Target>
  61. <BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
  62. <Value>0.75</Value>
  63. </Stats>
  64. <Prerequ>
  65. <Techs>
  66. <Option>EnergyPhasing</Option>
  67. </Techs>
  68. </Prerequ>
  69. </ShipComponent>

 

Right at the end there is the 'Prerequ' tech, if you copied the above (phasors) and made a version which unlocked at DoomRay tech it would become available at the 'next' weapontech. If we gave it a new, special <Type>FighterBeamWeapon</Type> stat, you can make fighter blueprints load up on FigherBeamWeapon components (and their kin/missile counterparts) and they would use those weapons instead. One side-effect of this would be they would appear in the player ship designer, meaning you'd have 2 versions of each weapon tier eventually - dunno how to hide components but it's probably possible; perhaps remove the 'category' stat, so they don't appear?

 

... That is, if you could at new types to ShipComponentDefs.xml, which I do not believe is currently modable, the game won't start with an unknown Type in the list.

 

 

 

Another way of doing it might be to introduce a new hulltype, the fighter, in ShipHullDefs.xml and ShipHullStatDefs.xml. Make it the same as tiny, but with a x0.5 multiplier for weapons - that way they'd basically be using 'small arms' versions of the main ship weapons, doing half damage (equal to the previous weapon tier).

I haven't yet tried adding a new hull size category - that might actually work.

Reply #54 Top

Quoting naselus, reply 43

Weirdly, I've seen people complaining of precisely the inverse - ignoring the fighters and targeting the carriers, which just soak up damage as the little ships rip your fleet apart. There's a lot of contradictory information flying around about carriers right now.

 

 

This depends on whether the ship type selection is automatic, or if the designer selects it. Carrier modules are added to Value which tends to make them support ships. If you pick Escort, Capital or something else, it will make a difference. The default, in most cases seems to be support. (At least in my games. Individual mileage may vary.)

Reply #55 Top

A lot of this would be fixed with prioritization of targets.....       Gratuitous Space Battles is a good example of something I could see them building into GC...  the tactical design on the strategic level.


There should be a fleet control page that opens up when you double click on a ship.   This will function similarly to the planet control page...  and allow the player to assign additional rolls, range commands, and targets.

The battles would then still be automatic, but it would give the option of designing one carrier or class of ship that simply is an anti-fighter support vessel.



One of the other things that they SHOULD do is make a class of weapons that specifically targets fighters...      any ships with these point defense weapons would have chance of fighting off the fighters....

 

I happen to love the huge swarms of fighters...  I just also want there to be suitable balancing point for them.

Reply #56 Top

Quoting TurielD, reply 52

I think so, I've seen someone mention something about it (maybe even in this thread?) but I couldn't find the right syntax for it.. so I kinda just don't know how

Duh?  o_O

You even gave me karma for it (reply #9 in this thread)

I believe the syntax in my reply is correct.

 

Reply #57 Top

Quoting Thecw, reply 56


Quoting TurielD,

I think so, I've seen someone mention something about it (maybe even in this thread?) but I couldn't find the right syntax for it.. so I kinda just don't know how



Duh?  o_O

You even gave me karma for it (reply #9 in this thread)

I believe the syntax in my reply is correct.

 

Indeed I did, and indeed you did post it!

 

Sorry mate, I lost track of where I'd seen it! I'm writing a thesis and planning an trip to help my girlfriend move back home from England, my head really isn't in modding space :D

So:

 

Quoting Thecw, reply 9

This is doable. You can add a logistics stat to a ship component (for example the DroneCarrierModule).

<Stats>
<EffectType>Logistics</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>2</Value>
</Stats>

 

I've added this to the mod code (2 for assault, guardian and drone, 3 for EscortCarrier), though it feels a little high (especially as we've already downgraded to Tiny fighters and upped the cost significantly. Further balancing will be needed.

 

As things stand I really don't have time for testing atm. If anyone wants to take the lead on this please feel free to grab the files from github and go to town :)

Reply #58 Top

Quoting TurielD, reply 57

though it feels a little high (especially as we've already downgraded to Tiny fighters and upped the cost significantly

A single tiny ship normally cost 2 logistics, so a module that gives you 2 of them for just 2 logistics point is rather cheap.

PS:

Do not try to make ships go below a 2 logistics cost, because then when the Hyperion Logistics system becomes active you will get nasty crashes and hangs. This is probably the reason SD has made the HLS no longer stack-able, because if there would be a ship with logistics cost of zero then the calculation of how many ships you can fit in a fleet will result in a divide by zero.

Reply #59 Top

Quoting Thecw, reply 58


Quoting TurielD,


though it feels a little high (especially as we've already downgraded to Tiny fighters and upped the cost significantly



A single tiny ship normally cost 2 logistics, so a module that gives you 2 of them for just 2 logistics point is rather cheap.

PS:

Do not try to make ships go below a 2 logistics cost, because then when the Hyperion Logistics system becomes active you will get nasty crashes and hangs. This is probably the reason SD has made the HLS no longer stack-able, because if there would be a ship with logistics cost of zero then the calculation of how many ships you can fit in a fleet will result in a divide by zero.

 

Good point. Though, these modules increase support of the base ship, they don't actually change anything about the fighters. You're still going to be seeing your fleet magically turn in to 70/40 logistics when the fighters spawn, as the tinies still count as 2.

 

On reflection, 2 is probably the sweet spot for 2 tiny fighters; it's as if you had expertly built them at your Hyperion Logistics shipyard, making them 1 logistics each.

Reply #60 Top

Quoting Thecw, reply 58

Do not try to make ships go below a 2 logistics cost, because then when the Hyperion Logistics system becomes active you will get nasty crashes and hangs. This is probably the reason SD has made the HLS no longer stack-able, because if there would be a ship with logistics cost of zero then the calculation of how many ships you can fit in a fleet will result in a divide by zero.

 

I thought the HLS was still stackable, if by stackable you mean improves with adjacency bonuses, but instead of continuing to reduce logistics costs (which is what the base building does), the levelling bonus increases your logistics cap?

Reply #61 Top

Quoting Chibiabos, reply 60

I thought the HLS was still stackable, if by stackable you mean improves with adjacency bonuses, but instead of continuing to reduce logistics costs (which is what the base building does), the levelling bonus increases your logistics cap?

If you now have two HLS, because you conquered a planet with one on it and you have already your own HLS, then the base bonus of diminishing of the logistic cost of each newly build ship by one is not stacked (unless you make both the HLS sponsor of the same shipyard). SD (sort of) prevented the base bonus stacking by making this bonus bound to the shipyard queue and no longer a global bonus.

The adjacency bonuses (giving logistics cap increase) work as expected.

If the base bonus stack with multiple HLS, then with 2 of them the logistics cost of a tiny ship would come down to zero, and ships with logistics cost of zero create lots of problems.

Reply #62 Top

Quoting Taslios, reply 55


One of the other things that they SHOULD do is make a class of weapons that specifically targets fighters...      any ships with these point defense weapons would have chance of fighting off the fighters....

I happen to love the huge swarms of fighters...  I just also want there to be suitable balancing point for them.

 

i totally agree with this and firmly believe this is a great way to counter the fighter swarm.

Don't know if any of you have played twilight imperium3 the boardgame but their solution to fighter swarms overpowering fleets are 'destroyer' units, roughly equivalent to a small class ship whose specialty is anti fighter barrage a kinda first strike capability against fighters, while being relatively weak vs other larger class ships.

dont know how you would implement in galciv but I think this would be a great way forward, and adding more tactical thought to fleet makeup 

Reply #63 Top

I would think the ultimate fix for the fighter issue would be for SD to make fighters design-able and assignable with each carrier module having a capacity value that the fighters hafta fit into.  Thus you could design tiny low mass fighters and cram a bunch into a fighter bay or design a single corvette class ship that would fit into a fighter bay on something like a huge.  This is something that was done by Starddrive and expanded upon by modders and turned out extraordinarily well.

Reply #64 Top

Quoting Deathwynd, reply 63

I would think the ultimate fix for the fighter issue would be for SD to make fighters design-able and assignable with each carrier module having a capacity value that the fighters hafta fit into.  Thus you could design tiny low mass fighters and cram a bunch into a fighter bay or design a single corvette class ship that would fit into a fighter bay on something like a huge.  This is something that was done by Starddrive and expanded upon by modders and turned out extraordinarily well.

I always liked the idea of designing our own fighters, however, Stardock, said no to that almost right away.  I hope they reconsider that or at least some of the above suggestions as right now it's kind of silly having small ships with 3 carrier modules flying around carrying 6-9 extra ships.

Reply #65 Top

Can we replace the fighters on carriers with kamikaze space tacos?

Reply #66 Top

Quoting Stalker0, reply 16

This is the problem at a fundamental level.

1) Carriers provide strong offense (weapons that scale automatically with tech).

2) Carriers provide strong defense (free hp every combat).

This is better than anything a single weapon or defense module can provide, and as such...OP.

 

If carriers remain mechanically as they are, then balance requires a strong nerf. Their offense would have to be lower than any weapon at the same tech level by mass...period. But that method of balancing is difficult, because fundamentally carriers are in direct competition with weapon/defense modules, and its very easy to make one strictly better than the other.

That is why I agree with several of the suggestions in this thread, that the best balance is to make carriers DIFFERENT from weapons/defense modules.

This would include suggestions made in the thread like:

 

1) Require resources (maybe 2 different types of resources).

2) Heavy maintenance cost.

3) Has to go to planet, starbase to "restock" fighters.

 

I ultimately think that is the best way to balance, just tweaking the numbers will make balance very difficult.

 

Flying to a starbase to rebuild fighters? No!

Increasing maintenance and logistics cost. Exactly where the cost should be reflected. The total cost of ownership on a carrier should be like

1.5X Base cost of same size of vessel

2.5X Base maintenance rate

Logistics Cost should also be higher but not quite as much, Say 2X Base logistics cost for same sized vessel.

 

Reply #67 Top

Quoting Thecw, reply 58

Quoting TurielD,


though it feels a little high (especially as we've already downgraded to Tiny fighters and upped the cost significantly



A single tiny ship normally cost 2 logistics, so a module that gives you 2 of them for just 2 logistics point is rather cheap.

PS:

Do not try to make ships go below a 2 logistics cost, because then when the Hyperion Logistics system becomes active you will get nasty crashes and hangs. This is probably the reason SD has made the HLS no longer stack-able, because if there would be a ship with logistics cost of zero then the calculation of how many ships you can fit in a fleet will result in a divide by zero.

 

We all know what happens when you try to divide by zero don't we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Reply #68 Top

Personally while I love the way carriers work now. I do feel that all the 'fighters' should be the 'tiny drone' types (and call them all fighters). The small size is simply too powerful for how many you get vrs the logistics cost. 

 

I would like to see all the carrier modules be the tiny blueprint, with buffs and numbers going up as tech progresses. Also I think carriers with only tiny should be available as soon as you research medium hulls but that is just me. This would give the human player a (greater) challenge if the Ai had access to them earlier. 

Reply #69 Top



Additionally I think it should be limited per hull type tiny and small ships shouldn't be able to have carrier modules by design after all how can tiny and small ships carry additional small ships here are my limit ideas...

Why can a tiny ship not carry additional small ships? Here is a screenshot of a small tugboat carrier in case you are having a hard time visualizing what this would look like.

http://screencast.com/t/si5cYf9ibH

I don't see any problem with small ships carrying additional ships from that point of view. (But you can still debate it from a logistics value point of view for game balancing purposes if you want. I won't argue with that.)

Reply #70 Top

 

The problem with some of these "fixes" is that, while they may correct the OP nature of carriers, they also undermine the concept.

 

Forget about our lets-pretend space planes for a moment, think about how a carrier module differs from a beam module. With a beam module, it does a bunch of damage and, this not being Gratuitous Space Battles, it carries on doing that damage until you completely kill the ship its on. Carrier-fighters, by contrast, do a bunch of damage and then progressively less damage during the course of the battle as each fighter gets shot down (in theory at least). They even continue doing damage if their mothership is destroyed first. On the other hand, carrier-fighters magically repair to max hp at the end of each battle (unlike the ship a regular beam weapon is mounted on).

 

Now the obvious nerf is this last one: just don't let carrier auto-repair at the end of each fight. Unfortunately, this means you don't get to enjoy the carrier-ness so much: one battle, and it's over. As Semipiratical says, it reduces the fun-factor:

 

Quoting Semipiratical, reply 27

The key "fun" feature of carriers is the inherent expendability of the fighters, so I wouldn't want to remove this or require that the fighters be constructed on their own in a shipyard. What carriers need is to cost in proportion to the power of the fighters they field, and to not receive free upgrades as time goes on.

 

Part of the problem is that (in my experience at least) carrier-fighters don't get shot down easily. This is for a combination of reasons I think we should correct:

  • Firstly, a great swarm of fighters blasts everything else out of space before it gets a shot off in return;
  • Secondly, they don't get shot, because of a combination of not being targeted and being missed;
  • Finally, if they do get shot they survive anyway 

So a carrier fleet looks like a very powerful long-range beam weapon that blasts away at the other side. That's not good. In fact, it means carriers are not merely OP, they're not functioning as designed. Carriers are supposed to enter battle as a big glass hammer that quickly gets much weaker over the course of the battle - but the battle isn't lasting long enough for this to happen. First we need to make battles involving carriers work as designed in principle;once that is done, only then start tweaking the numbers for balance.

 

What does a "good" outcome look like? This is what I'm aiming for: a large swarm of fighters launches at an enemy fleet. The fighters are both very weak and have super-short range weapons, so they're in great peril as they approach the enemy fleet. If the enemy fleet is well prepared, they pick off incoming fighters with low-powered rapid fire from stand-off range, obliterating the fighter swarm; they then close for conventional battle against fundamentally weak carrier motherships. On the other hand, if the enemy fleet is poorly prepared, their slow firing missiles and capital-beam weapons are wasted killing a handful of small fighters, and when the fighter swarm reaches weapons range the enemy is overwhelmed by the sheer volume of incoming fire.

Note that this means I don't want to reduce the number of fighters in the sky (that makes carriers less carrier-like): if anything, I want to increase them.

 

So what do we need to implement to make carrier battles work that way? 

  • Firstly, guardian ships should target carrier fighters as their #1 priority. Which will give guardians some reason to exist.
  • Secondly, drop the weapons range of carrier-fighters right down. I mean, really low. That will give the other side an opportunity to take out incoming fighters before they get a chance to deliver their payload.
  • Thirdly, drop the hp of carrier fighters right down too. A capital-ship weapon hitting a fighter should be a one-shot kill unless you've got shield/armour/point defense, and they shouldn't be big enough to have much of that.
  • Finally, we might need some specific anti-fighter tech. I'm thinking something like "Anti-Fighter defense: Increase rate of fire of beam weapons by 200% but reduce accuracy by 50% and damage by 75%". Let's give the player a chance to use a different anti-fighter tactic too; you could also try "Ack-ack fire: Increase rate of fire of kinetic by 100% but reduce both accuracy and range by 50%, and damage by 90%".

With a bit of luck, all the above will mean that carriers are now underpowered, because a fleet with reasonable anti-fighter tech can shoot the incoming fighters all down before they arrive. To balance, increase the number of fighters per carrier module so that large carrier fleets overwhelm the rate-of-fire of traditional fleets.

 

Strategy-map level changes: hit-points for fighter wings

I wouldn't object to tweaking the "magic auto-repair" of carriers a bit, so that carrier fleets on extended campaigns gradually start to run out of fighters. This would need some experimentation: ideally, I'd say that each carrier had on board a pool of three times as many fighters as it could launch in one battle: magic auto-repairs come from this pool (which gets depleted by fighter deaths); let this pool refill by 10% per turn (not per battle) or 25% per turn while docked at a friendly planet/station.

This is essentially hit points for fighter wings. Thus each carrier has as 3x as many "fighter hp" as it has fighters. It loses one hp per fighter killed. It regenerates 10% of its hp per turn. At the start of each battle, it launches as many fighters as its modules allow, or only as many as it has fighter hp if that is currently lower.

 

For drone carriers: all the above, only more so. So even more drone fighters per module, a larger pool of drones on board, and a faster pool replenishment rate. But smaller damage output per drone, and no shields/armour/point defense.

Reply #71 Top

I haven't seen anybody in this discussion address the ROLES of the ships they use.

In my (limited) experience, having a combination of high-damage ships in your fleet set to either interceptor or guardian works very well against AI fighters, which prioritise your escorts/capitals/assualt ships first. 

The weakness to me appears to be rather that the AI under-uses carriers itself, and doesn't counter them properly at all. 

I can see the logistics issue being a problem, but improving the AI's fleet balance to counter it's enemies should also go a long way.