Campaign Feedback.

My Current thoughts and comments on the Campaign

Most of my campaign attempts have been on CEO difficulty with scientific since its the only campaign I can't win. A few attempts with other colony types and default difficulty. Some comments importance are influenced by this. I know the campaign is a work in progress.

Perks:

- It would be great if I could choose where to place the “free buildings”. Pretty sure the free building (patent lab) destroys the resource if it gets placed on a resource tile with no initial bonus. Free quarries and mines are nice, but either carbon/silicon are preferable to others. Or alum > iron with scientific.

- Because of the above, the free buildings for scientific suck, because they do not end up on a corresponding resource tile. Therefore, the free higher tier buildings are actually detrimental, unless its power.

- There is a general imbalance in the value of the different perks. The patents are a massive boon if they show up as a perk. Sometimes there are duplicates.

Growing the colony as the basis of income creates some weird/non-obvious challenges:

- The overall campaign income is based off the size that you are able to grow the colony too. Not the amount of shares purchased, but rather the colony has time to grow to. As such, the income is highly dependent on which AI’s you end up with. The scientific ones tend to be crap. Easy to beat, but almost always add nothing to the growth of the colony. This creates a weird situation where you want a competent AI, but not great. The launch/production ones tend to “run-away” the most frequently and end up as “unbeatable.” The AI also tends to wait a long time before buying the first stock, so  growing the colony is dependent on you starting it up with early purchases. Risky as the “run-aways” can easily generate huge amounts of cash.  

- There is no advantage to purchasing additional colony buildings/stock beyond its ability to grow. AT the end of a mission, the only reason to buy into the colony more is to not lose. All cash spent ends up being wasted since it doesn’t carry over if the colony doesn’t have time to grow. As a corollary, scientific on CEO tends to run into problems since it takes so long to even get past size 1 that you have to almost immediately spend all money earned growing the colony in a mission, or you lose because you can’t even grow the colony past a certain size.

- Because the colony growth is affected by water/food/oxygen, certain colony types are poorly equipped to “grow the colony” since they can’t suppress the prices of those items since they don’t even get buildings to do so. Scientific/robotic struggle the most. All of the colonies should start with the 3 necessities, especially if a particular colony type consumes it (e.g. scientific consumes water and doesn’t even start with a water pump)

- There should really be alternative ways to earn cash in the missions. Bounties or something rather than the colony growth and net ending cash. Falling behind in a mission because of a rare random early short/surplus shouldn’t necessarily be a reason to just give up the entire campaign. Losing a mission is too critical to the overall campaign.

- It is extremely difficult to obtain cash to actually hire engineers, at least on CEO/Scientific. Usually I can spend the first free 800k, and then later get 1 more if I do exceptionally well on a mission and grow the colony. It’s a little easier on easier difficulties, as it should be, but I’m not sure how you are expected to get multiple hacker arrays or off world engineers to even increase the productivity enough that they are useful to construct.

- Do you get the income from the colony from winning a mission immediately, or is there a 1 mission delay? Seems to be a delay which creates a lull in the campaign’s 2nd mission.

Scientific specifically:

- The starting engineers for scientific are totally bizarre. Early missions you don’t even have the time to get to the point of producing chemical labs, but you have 2 chemical lab engineers costing a ton of money. Some of the higher tier patents take an inordinate amount of time to complete the research after finally getting the resources to start it.

- Not being able to choose where free buildings goes hurts. A lot. That free chemical lab? Probably getting scrapped as it won’t ever be profitable since the base efficiency is so bad on higher tier buildings. That free glass furnace? Getting scrapped since it won’t be on silicon.

- Not having water pumps to start isn’t good, since it is consumed.

- Takes so very long in the early missions to even grow past size 1 on CEO.

- Power trap: Cash is so important within a mission than doing anything to merely reduce debt is a waste of time. Power is the noticeable example and so running up 200k+ debt is a regular occurance. In mission debt matters, but far less than getting the colony to grow and winning the mission.

-****ing Pirates.

Miscellaneous

- The 10% increase of debt on the last day should probably be removed or integrated differently. An upwards of 10-15k cash hit which has zero effect going forward on the mission, except when tied, since it ends immediately afterwards.

- I’m not certain how the ending cash values and stock price are calculated on the campaign. A little clarity would be nice. Is cash the net of cash/debt/resources? What about buildings? I’m under the impression that its best to sell absolutely everything possible and pay off as much debt as possible.

- There is a bug where upon creation of the campaign, an unrevealed mission will be in focus. I discovered it while trying to brute force carbon scrubbing. It only became available after the 3rd or 4th mission, but it was there!

- Sometimes there are 4 missions?!, sometimes only 2. Odd.

- Robotic AI basically start at level 2, every time.

- The auction prices are ???! 108k for an offworld that won’t ever get built. AI’s tend to ruin themselves on debt from auctions.

- Snowballing cash from shortages is so powerful since the AI doesn’t pose a threat.  

Suggestions:

- Improve the relationship between the cash generated in the missions and the overall campaign. Micromanaging cash/debt during the missions feels necessary since its so difficult to control cash/debt outside the missions.

- The hirable engineers need a lot of work. Perhaps it would be better to have more of them at lower cost, with lesser increases. I don’t think it would be a bad thing to be allowed to go into debt to hire more risking the future for the present. Being able to fire them would be nice too. Sometimes a patent/perk comes up that you’d love to put to use but can’t since you have hired a different path.

- The engineers available is lacking. There should be more variety at varying costs. Perhaps more of them, with more “skill” variety for different costs instead of just fixed values. Efficiency engineers consume less. Output engineers, which produce more but use more power/inputs. Add some building mods too to adjust production. Fixed costs for those. Faster blimps? Not sure what the coding will allow for, but there’s lots of room for fun things.

- I don’t really like requiring a lump sum + salary going forward for the engineers. Get stuck sometimes since controlling campaign cash is a serious challenge.  It’s convoluted and limited.

- There’s a lack of overall campaign actions. There needs to be more campaign actions than just hiring the rare additional worker. I believe some of the lack of engagement of the campaign is due to this. Perhaps add some longer term goals. Add some longer term goals/researches that you activate outside of the missions. R&D department?

- I'd like to be able to challenge to take control of a region that was already in play (or be challenged).

- I think with the current structure, the campaign should play more like a game wrapped around the off-world game (individual missions), although I know that adds a ton of complexity. The current changes with campaign stock prices are a good step in this direction.

- Currently, most of the choices are to be made really only have 1 proper choice.

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Reply #1 Top

I can agree to most of the topics mentioned above. I'm pretty new to the game, but I think I can handle playing against the AI very good as I win all games without too much diffculties - except in the campain.

 

As scientific to start without water would be okay for me, but to start without water and (in 8 out of 10 cases) to not have access to a mine at all - that's really strange! The experts I can hire are not random enough. Mostly I see 3 pleasure dome guys (or offworld guys or glass/chemicals/eletronics guy) waiting to be hired but no mine worker and then you are screwed from the beginning.

 

I think each "race" should be able to at least purchse the basic needs (water, food, reactor, mines and quarries) right away to close their given gaps - at least the painful ones.

 

In addition the funding through the campain is a real pain in my ass at least as it is not really clear to me how I should grow. I know how it is supposed to be working, but as indczn1 already mentioned from inside the game you can't figure out the campain money. It just feels not good and is not quite balanced I think until now. Which is totally okay but should get fixed ;o).

 

Also Pirates feel so broken in the campain...

 

The free buildings should be available to be set as one pleases - just without cost's of a claim and ressources. This would be a great benefit as you can manage to bring your glass furnice onto a silicon field as Scientific then or to decide on which field the mine should be placed (Aluminium or Iron) or to just arrange your buildings the way you want them to be. In addition as long as it is not placed it won't consume power and cant be target of black market attacks.

 

Just my 2 cents and please excuse my english or misspellings as I'm writing from Germany and my auto-corrections is showing all in red :).

Reply #2 Top

Thanks for the feedback - some of this is going to be addressed in Beta 3, and we still have a long way to go with the patch.

I guess my main question would be why you are having to play on CEO. I am not surprised that the campaign is pretty strange on that level, but I would hope that you don't need to test on that level. I assume it is just too easy to beat the AI on Executive or VP? If so, what big mistakes are the AI making?

Reply #3 Top

Why CEO? Darthcaboose was posting on reddit about it, and I wanted to see if I could managed to beat it since I'm a scientific player, and my sheer masochistic tendencies has kept me at it. I can beat it on easier difficulties. I know that CEO balance isn't a focus and won't be for a while, but it really does highlight some issues since every little detail is important, particularly the value of some things. There is little, if any margin for losing money on production at any point, and using every little opportunity to gain a little bit of cash is necessary.

Regarding the AI, I'm not sure how much of this is actually big mistakes, and I'm not sure anyone wants the AI to actually min-max everything since it easily could be programmed to.  A lot of the time the AI plays things very safe, so they don't take advantage of adjacency as much early on. They go hydroponic farm & electrolysis, and only double up the buildings much much later. The AI doesn't take advantages of shortages/surpluses, which allows me to obtain free cash off every short. I often see the AI running 2nd tier buildings that are showing -$50 revenue, presumably because they have a lot of tier 1 resource being harvested. Sometimes the AI is good about turning off buildings, others times not.

The biggest thing, imo, is that the AI doesn't always spend money wisely, claims seems to be a massive cash dump. I win missions frequently because I end up dumping everything into the colony from an early point at size 2 or 3, since I have general price points for resources where I will not consume them if the market price is higher than a certain point. Admittedly, this doesn't always work, since sometimes you just get sheer outproduced at some point. Whereas the AI's just grow and level to 5 regardless of ultimate cost and buy tons of claims off the BM, often using very expensive resources and steel, when if they had just bought shares in the colony, they would win easily. Not sure I'd classify this as a mistake, since spending free cash is often a judgement call based on how I think the game is progressing, but I do get the impression that the AI certainly isn't spending cash the way I would. Overall, I'd say the AI doesn't do very well on opportunity costs. The program says "i have steel and alum coming in and so it's time to upgrade" and therefore seems to miss on the best use of something. Or " I have water pumps and food farms, so I'm making food.

The AI also tends to overbid on certain special building auctions, and pirates, that they have no hope of ever using within a mission, notably the off-world. I don't believe the AI really adjusts its production very much over the course of a mission, so there is ample opportunity to profit from fluctuations. You can make the AI make poor choices by messing with the prices, which helps weaken them.

The AI is so-so on mutiny's and pirates, often seeming to place them for need, opposed to value, or placing them such that they get wasted by grabbing additional, resources with minimal value.

 

AI's tend to ignore distance from colony, which causes a lot of time waste. A high tile far away is usually chosen, and while usually fine, but can be fuel costly as well. Timing affects scientific AI noticeably.

The scientific AI's have a bad habit of stagnating. The research corp loves to hit level 3 and then spends the rest of the game researching patents and not buying stock. This partially relates to

The robotic AI tends to be very very strong since they can level up to 5 uninhibited and very quickly and start launching. If the AI gets offworlds up with a day or 2 left in the missing, they win just about every time. I attribute this to the founding and instant upgrade to level 2 and their engineers are highly specialized. Expansive production corp is strong too.

 Scavenger is very hit or miss, depends on founding. If they found quite a ways away from carbon/silicon they are vulnerable. They do not usually build their carbon quarries next to each other, which slows them down alot.

Reply #4 Top

In my case: I'm not even trying on CEO-level. I'm quite too new to this game to try these difficulties.

But the issue with having no Aluminum mine available at all would be present on all levels, right? May I ask how I should play out the campain without mining Aluminum? I can't always buy, mutiny, pirate it?!

Reply #5 Top

Yeah. Unfortunately not having metal mines is a pain too. I generally just buy it when its cheap. Watch the AI and see what their production is so you know whether it will be cheap or keep rising. If all the ai have a high alum, then the price should stay low. Careful if you are against multiple Scientific since they don't usually build them. Usually its pretty cheap until a bunch of housing gets bought at the end of the mission. Stagger your buying so the AI sells off alum before buying more and lowers your cash outlay. Try to get a free metal mine perk early if you can. The metal mine should found on the closest high deposit, so make sure that will be alum.

Other than than, found on alum, if its close to iron, use pirates, mutiny or just don't upgrade past level 3. The nice thing about Scientific is the 2nd tier buildings are generally highly profitable.

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Reply #6 Top

Hm, yeah - I've known most of the tricks you told me, but also learned a few things, thank you very much! :)

My "problem" is more that you do not even have a chance to buy into a metal mines most of the time (and you need water too ^^) whereas other "races" like scavenger hardly need any additional building to be unlocked. My suggestion is not to give access for scientific right away (even though this would only be fair!) but to make it at least possible to buy workforce for metal mines (and water ^^) FOR SURE and not only if the real bad randomizer spits it out.

Other than that I find the campain to be a real good idea the way it is working. That you can acutally lose a level but win the campain. Or that it is possible to focus either on your stock price to not get eliminated (until the very last level for sure) or to focus on winning the levels not caring for the stock price (as long as you win, you won't get eliminated).

I really like this game :).

Reply #7 Top

Yup, I've been bashing me head in with the CEO Scientific campaign. I just have not had the right combination of buildings, perks, and maps come up to ensure victory.

I can absolutely beat almost any campaign with any HQ on Manager or lower, even on Scientific. However, CEO's got a grip on me. It's very difficult, I mean FTL hard-mode difficult. I mean Water Temple difficult. Gah!

And the only reason why it is so difficult is because you just start with one less claim than normal and on your 2nd and 3rd HQ upgrade. It's just absolutely painful. You have no chance of winning unless you found and claim the only resources on the map that the AI needs to upgrade, or if you found last. That's right, you need that extra claim at HQ level 2, which means you have to found last. You are in dire need of Extra Claims or (at the very least) Free Buildings. However, even those are not great because a lot of the Secondary production buildings are placed out in the open and are not of type Scientific. Add to it that the Scientific campaign player does not start with any Primary production buildings and you can quickly see why these Secondary production building bonuses are bad (though, at least, they're a free place to plant a Solar Panel down!).

Don't get me wrong, I love how hard this is. But there are definitely some changes that could be made to make it less painful. For one, I'd like to see any extra buildings from Perks be changed so that they're Scientific and the game tries to plant them directly on an appropriate resource tile (for example, if you get a perk for a free Farm, then it should try and place it on a water tile close-by). For two, Scientific players could feasibly start with Metal Mines; my more successful CEO campaign runs were ones where I could pick up Metal Mines, Water Pumps, and/or Steel Mill engineers.

Why?

Metal Mines: Allows you to mine the ever-precious Aluminum for your HQ upgrades and to get Housing modules for the colony. Equally important (and surprising that I write this so, but it really is true!) Metal Mines also allow you to take advantage of the Iron market once Steel becomes less profitable. You almost always start each mission with two Steel mills for your two claims (rarely taking a High Aluminum tile if it's the only one of the map, assuming I even get Metal Mines as an engineer choice); you actually make a bit more money selling off Iron and buying the needed Aluminum/Steel/Glass for a short while due to the increase amount of Iron your produce per mine versus Steel per mill (never mind that Iron starts off at $20 and Steel at $40!). 

Water Pumps: You get to HQ Level 2 and you now have 3 claims (because you founded last, because you're smart, remember?). There's two ways to go here. You can either claim a triangle of water tiles, or claim two of the three water tiles and complete your Steel mill triangle. Both of these depend on the current market and general price of water-based necessities versus the Iron/Steel market. If you think you can feasibly hit the resources needed for HQ Level 3, I'd go with the extra Steel mill. Otherwise, you go into the water business. Specifically, you build Reactors because they generally are more profitable than Farms (and much cheaper to build too)! Now, having access to waters pumps is great because water pumps are cheap (especially after spending all those resources to get to HQ Level 2), the resources they generate are of much higher throughput than Farms and Reactors, and mass producing water potentially allows you to convert your Steel Mills into Farms or Reactors if the demand for those resources get high enough. It's a big boon to have them.

Steel Mills: You spend a lot of time in the early game waiting to scrounge the resources to get to HQ Level 2. Getting another Steel Mill engineer greatly reduces the waiting time. It's a really big deal. Playing as Scientific, you're looking at getting your HQ Upgrade 2 perhaps half-a-day to a whole day faster than without.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Soren, you asked why you think we feel the need to test CEO out so extensively. The answer is simple: Because it exists and it's hella-hard to do. Truth be told, I haven't even tried out VP difficulty yet. Maybe I should...

Reply #8 Top

haha, it's true that for some people, they always choose hardest difficulty and (in MP) maximum number of players, no matter where we set the bar!

Reply #9 Top

Hey Soren,

How actively do you check the Offworld subreddit? There's a fair amount of opinions and thoughts about the current state of the game there. I was wondering if it's better to get in touch with the Mohawk team by linking relevant conversations here or if it's not necessary.

Reply #10 Top

I read the subbreddit too but feel free to link to anything relevant.

Reply #11 Top

Not sure if this is something pointed out above...

 

But i got to the end of the campaign on one of the lower difficulties (Assistant I think).....and after I did the "final round" where you take on the other 3 of the top 4 companies, nothing happens.  It takes you back to the company management screen.  And you can't select a mission because there are none left. (you have technically won at this point but I don't think the win condition triggers or there IS no win condition built into the campaign...)

 

Just a glitch that should be pointed out......

Reply #12 Top

I don't think there is a win screen for the campaign yet.