Frogboy Frogboy

Ashes goodies for founders coming

Ashes goodies for founders coming

Greetings!

I'm on the plane and have some time to talk a little bit about Ashes.  I've been getting a ton of questions about the game and I'm going to try to answer these questions in the clearest way I can. :)

First, some house cleaning:

1. If there isn't a subedit on Ashes yet, could someone make it? The nature of this game is such that we really want to be able to talk to the community a lot prior to release. 

2. We are instituting a new Founders system that we will apply retroactively to other games that have had founders programs (like GalCiv III).  In essence, we will be giving Founders more exclusive stuff early on. That stuff may be made available later to everyone but we want people who supported us from the start to get first dibs on things.

Next, Founders info:

a. Re Supreme Commander & TA questions.  Yes, Ashes is probably most similar to those games with one major difference - the maps themselves are broken up into regions.  Thus, you have to control the region (ala Company of Heroes) and the contiguous regions back to your seed (Base) in order to receive the resources of that region.

b. Re scale.  I've seen a lot of people talk about how many units are in other games with an accompanying screenshot.  The difference here is that one of those big battles would just be one of potentially many battles going on across the world.  The difference in actual units is an order of magnitude higher than anything that's previously been done. 

c. Re Managing units.  While each of the potentially tens of thousands of units can be commanded individually, that would be relatively insane to try.  Instead, think of each individual as being a lego and being able to quickly and easily put together these legos into a single bigger unit which we call Meta units.  The meta unit works together as if it's a single unit. You click on one, you have clicked on all of them and all their special abilities are available to use.  They will automatically help each other (since they see themselves as part of a greater unit).

d. Meta units are not control groups. A control group might have multiple meta units in it. A meta unit can be 1 unit or it might be 3000 units depending on what the player wants to do.  

Next, early debates on topics we can have:

a. There are 3 main resources players are fighting: Metal (for constructing stuff), Radioactives (for advanced units and researching), and Computronium.  Comporting acts as the victory point ticker in this game. It's a real word and a real concept.  But we hate the name.  We are open to ideas on a different name.  Computronium is the theoretical name of an idealized computing substance.

 

b. Map sizes.  Our tiny map is about the size of the Bay Area in California. The largest map size is difficult to describe because it's so big. It takes a hour for a unit to travel across it.  Based on who is reading this post, how long do you prefer your RTS games to last?

 

492,336 views 69 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting ColaColin, reply 13

on tech trees: Will teching require something like a building of a specific type to be made? An issue I see with tech trees is that you cannot scout into which direction your opponent techs until it is "too late" because your opponent has the stuff on the field. 

So that could be fixed by requiring you to make some tech buildings, depending on what direction you want to tech.

 

Tech requires two things:

1. A Research Matrix to unlock that tech tier (so if you want a tier 5 tech, you need to have 5 Research Matrices built)

2. The technology's prerequisite resources (mostly radioactives).

Reply #27 Top

I'd have a question if you wouldn't mind.

What architecture will the multiplayer work on? P2P (the old-school), Client-Server (still old but standard among other games) or something different like SC2, which creates game experience resembling P2P but routes it through a server under the hood to keep hacking at a minimum and make sure you will use Battle.net as the middle man (hence no LAN and tourneys outside Activision Blizzard's control)?

Oh, and what's the builder unit going to be like? Can we expect some vehicle (possibly /m/anly one) at the start, HQ building and builder units, or some other system (Dune/C&C background building, calling in buildings 'ala British,... there have been far too many building systems in RTSs to name them all)? 

Reply #28 Top

Re multiplayer:

The plan right now is to have it be client/server with a migratable host.  We are building a trusted server system (hosted servers) but will be evaluating early access to determine whether they're needed (i.e. if there's e-sport potential, we'll know during the beta).

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 28

Re multiplayer:

The plan right now is to have it be client/server with a migratable host.  We are building a trusted server system (hosted servers) but will be evaluating early access to determine whether they're needed (i.e. if there's e-sport potential, we'll know during the beta).

Migratable? Does this mean one of the players is host and that "host" can move to some other player if the original host leaves? How would you manage to transfer over all the game state data, as in a clean client/server all clients only know exactly what they need to know to prevent maphacks?

Does that host players computer alone take care of all simulation then? Or can one slow laptop in a 4 player match slow down the game for all players, even if the laptop is not the host?

What is the bandwidth requirement on the server then? In Planetary Annihilation they use a pretty strict server/client model where all players are only clients. The server has rather high requirements in terms of upload bandwidth and many players would not have the bandwidth to host larger games.

Ofc not asking for exact numbers here, just the general direction. 

 

 

Reply #30 Top

BTW, I've begun uploading things to the vault. Check the sticky post for more info.

Reply #31 Top


a. There are 3 main resources players are fighting: Metal (for constructing stuff), Radioactives (for advanced units and researching), and Computronium.  Comporting acts as the victory point ticker in this game. It's a real word and a real concept.  But we hate the name.  We are open to ideas on a different name.  Computronium is the theoretical name of an idealized computing substance.

 

Pleroma is a Greek term meaning "fullness" used to describe the totality of God and/or perfect creation.  I think it could work in this context, particularly given the attitude of the post-humans.  "Pleroma" could be used interchangeably for computrionium itself and the entire substrate facilitated by it, or the substance could be called "Pleromium" or something with the substrate being the Pleroma.

Reply #32 Top

Match time depends on map size and game settings.  At a LAN party our Sins matches usually run about an hour.  I've had multiplayer games run over 7 hours on the largest map size.  I think that's perfectly acceptable for the largest size.  If you don't want to play that long, play a smaller map and/or increase the game speed.

 

Also, for the record, you guys had me at SupCom scale with CoH game play.

Reply #33 Top

I just want a founders badge :(

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Frogboy,

Re multiplayer:

The plan right now is to have it be client/server with a migratable host.  We are building a trusted server system (hosted servers) but will be evaluating early access to determine whether they're needed (i.e. if there's e-sport potential, we'll know during the beta).

 

hence: https://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=456485

??

-tid242


Reply #35 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 9

Indicite

 

I like that one, sounds much better than Computronium

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Reply #36 Top

Quoting wbino49, reply 12

Looks like Total Annilation .....

Twitchy to fast...clickfest? Just cause you can put thousands of units on screen doesn't make it a better game.

Would prefer a small scale strategic battle with units you get to know, not expendable units to make fancy booms.

Thousands of units might be impressive selling point but looks ridiculous to this older gamers eyes.....

 

I disagree... nearly all of the recent RTS games have been small scale battles so you already have lots to choose from.

Some of us actually would like another large scale warfare with numerous disposable units at our command.

Reply #37 Top

Some ideas:

  • Endurium - enduring
  • Immortium - immortal
  • Perennium - perennial
  • Continuum - continuous
  • Mooridium - ode to Moore's Law
  • Ciphertronium - cipher
Reply #38 Top

Really excited for the game.  fwiw - I hope it turns out a lot more like Sins of a Solar Empire than Planetary Annihilation.  I enjoy shorter games that can finish in ~an hour, but Sins was just a lot more fun for me.  Logged hundreds of hours on Sins.

Reply #39 Top

I like Computronium because it sounds recognizable. I may not know what it is but it doesn't sound completely foreign either. 


Unfortunately none of the names given so far have any tangible association and could easily be named foo bar with the same level of meaning. 

The other reason Computronium works is because a lot of people will do what I did and "google" it.

Computronium is a material hypothesized by Norman Margolus and Tommaso Toffoli of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to be used as "programmable matter," a substrate for computer modeling of virtually any real object.[1]

It also refers to a theoretical arrangement of matter that is the best possible form of computing device for that amount of matter.

 

This is enough for it to become a common word describing the material resource in Ashes. Once it's established and part of the vernacular of the game it's meaning will become more reinforced and less abstract IMHO.

 


Reply #40 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 39

Unfortunately none of the names given so far have any tangible association and could easily be named foo bar with the same level of meaning. 

Clearly zombies do not do well with their latin/greek roots.  :P

Did you read them all? Ciphertronium is basically constructed the same way as computronium, though its only moderately better (Cipherium would be my choice though on that one).

 

I assumed Frogboy meant that he didn't want to name the material [English Word Here]-[Suffix], because many people including myself would find that generic and boring. Can you imagine if Marvel called Adamantium something like "Hardium" instead? Adamantium is a much better name because Adamant is just used enough in English for some people to know of it, yet it mainly comes from a Greek root word, making it both different and yet familiar enough for those educated or willing to look it up. :p

Reply #41 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 40

Clearly zombies do not do well with their latin/greek roots. 

My general ignorance of latin/greek roots neither makes me stupid or you more intelligent ;)

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 40

Did you read them all? Ciphertronium is basically constructed the same way as computronium, though its only moderately better (Cipherium would be my choice though on that one).

This is the only other one that might invoke some common understanding when initially reading the word.

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 40

assumed Frogboy meant that he didn't want to name the material [English Word Here]-[Suffix], because many people including myself would find that generic and boring. Can you imagine if Marvel called Adamantium something like "Hardium" instead? Adamantium is a much better name because Adamant is just used enough in English for some people to know of it, yet it mainly comes from a Greek root word, making it both different and yet familiar enough for those educated or willing to look it up.

Then why use Metal or Radioactives? The interesting thing with Computorium is it immediately invokes some association with computers/computation while many may not understand what a cipher is though it's not as bad as the others suggested.

Also, if the goal is to create non-generic un-boring words for the resources in Ashes, better drop Metal and Radioactives and give them some non English word to spice it up I guess. 

Reply #42 Top

Quoting HighNoonGundam, reply 15

Quoting Ticktoc,

Small 1v1 maps for quick games and enormous maps for long long games and everything else in-between should meet everyone's needs I think I do like the option for huge maps which are played over several days



This. So much this. 

 

Oh yes! I'm in for 10 hour MP games if the game becomes as epic as it sounds! Strategy trumphs tactics any day!

Reply #43 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 41

My general ignorance of latin/greek roots neither makes me stupid or you more intelligent

General intelligence, no. General knowledge is a different matter.  ;)

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 41

Then why use Metal or Radioactives?

They seem to refer to broad categories of materials in this case, not a specific material like computronim does. For things you actually build units out of, this is safer than using a specific material. For example, if you have a classical RTS game where airplanes are built with iron (as a specific form for everything metal), you'll get some smart guy who says they're really built from aluminum.

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 41

Also, if the goal is to create non-generic un-boring words for the resources in Ashes, better drop Metal and Radioactives and give them some non English word to spice it up I guess. 

Generic words are fine for categories. For a specific futuristic material, yes people like me will complain if its too generic and boring. Especially if you use it to win the game. :p

Reply #44 Top

I really dislike limits of any kind.  (That's right, I'm a bad boy.)  That's why after reading the articles about Mantle I will be retooling my gaming PC to have as many real cores as possible.  The articles were not to sure about hyper-threading.   

I am a founder for GALCIV III and Ashes (Founder's Lifetime Edition - GreenDragon account) and I bought Servo.  I don't like the idea of limiting information and toys to just Founders.  It smacks of elitism.  Some of us have money to waste on this stuff but that doesn't make us special.  Stop treating people differently based on socio-economic background.  Give everything to everybody because they are part of your community.

We are all here because we like using your products and sharing information about those products with others.  Why would you cut that off at the knees?  I paid the full fare because I want to support your good efforts not to participate in depriving others of information.

 

backs out of the room slowly...  *_* :borg:

(in a bit of a huff)

 

Why?

Early concepts, designs, and music available only to Founders

Members of the Galactic Civilizations III can log into the Founder's Repository for exclusive access to our development materials. Get an early glimpse of music snippets, design documents, concept art, and more by logging in with your Stardock account below.

 https://www.galciv3.com/founders

Reply #45 Top

Quoting RedDwarf999, reply 44

I am a founder for GALCIV III and Ashes (Founder's Lifetime Edition - GreenDragon account) and I bought Servo.  I don't like the idea of limiting information and toys to just Founders.  It smacks of elitism.  Some of us have money to waste on this stuff but that doesn't make us special.  Stop treating people differently based on socio-economic background.  Give everything to everybody because they are part of your community.

 

I respect your opinion, but I am sure you understand that most likely this is just a business decision. Basically, Stardock's decision to limit some material to Founders is probably because they want to create an additional incentive for people to purchase the game early, not because they want to encourage elitism or give preference based on socio-economic status. Also, note that even some people with high socio-economic status may choose to not become a Founder due to lack of interest or as a matter of principle (e.g. some people are against pre-purchase and/or Early Access).

And Stardock has stated that Founders can discuss in public the information they obtain early, they just can't post screenshots or videos that show it (especially gameplay footage once Early Access becomes available). Therefore it is still possible for anyone who is not a founder to learn about the features and other gameplay info at the same time (e.g. via comments in the forums made by Founders).

Reply #46 Top

I love long games. Mainly because if i want to be stressed out and make quick decisions i go to work.

 

1 hours travel for a unit to cross a map is good. i remember 64MB maps for TA being seen as insane. If there are units with significant range, a decent ferry system maybe enhanced from SC:FA, and possibly teleportation from structures, then i see no issue. If the engine can handle it, then you should build it. Potentially then you may have a campaign on just one map!?

that would be phenomenal. having lots of Allie players cut off, entrenched, all needing support, or trying to help eachother, yet logistics could be an issue. what a great game that currently has never been done. Yes you need the smaller faster skirmishes for multiplayer, and to compete with the existing market.

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Reply #47 Top

But we hate the name.  We are open to ideas on a different name.  Computronium is the theoretical name of an idealized computing substance.

Well, while computronium sure is a mouthful to say, a slight tweak to lore could potentially resolve this.

 

"With material needs a thing of the past, humanity entered a new golden age. A substance called "computronium," long theorized, became a reality. Computronium is the arrangement of matter that provides the best possible form for computing in a given amount of matter.

Unfortunately the humans quickly discovered that raw Computronium was inefficient to their needs, and most importantly unstable. With the help of the AI, tiny machines, called "nans," the humans were able to process the raw Computronium into a more refined and immensely powerful substance called Ash. Soon the humans and AI had quickly converted much of the usable mass of the Earth into ash.

Ash became the ultimate currency. The more ash one possessed, the more intelligence – and therefore power – one had."

 

This way you have the word play tying the name of the game to an actual in-game asset! Or something to that effect...  :P

Reply #49 Top

Quoting racso5, reply 45

I respect your opinion, but I am sure you understand that most likely this is just a business decision. Basically, Stardock's decision to limit some material to Founders is probably because they want to create an additional incentive for people to purchase the game early, not because they want to encourage elitism or give preference based on socio-economic status.

This still creates two classes of people.   People who have $45 dollars and people who don't.  Justice?  Separate but equal?

 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Earl_Warren

  • You sit up there, and you see the whole gamut of human nature. Even if the case being argued involves only a little fellow and $50, it involves justice. That's what is important.
    • Interview in 1953 after being appointed to the Supreme Court, as quoted in Earl Warren : A Political Biography (1967) by Leo Katcher, p. 315
  • We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal.

 

I'm  irked by the fact that this is a defacto paywall.  

 

What would you do if your best friend said, "You can look at my new toy, if you give me $45."  How long would you be their friend after that?  Doesn't sit well with me.  Seems mean spirited.

Share the information with everyone, for free and when they come upon $45 they will know about a great game they can buy; how's that for economic incentive?

 

backs out of the room slowly...   *_* :borg:  

 

 

 

 

Reply #50 Top

As I mentioned in the previous post, Founders are allowed to discuss the news and info they receive with non-Founders. They just cannot share the actual art, video files, or any other docs with anyone. The news and information is the most valuable content. Thus no one is being denied justice or being discriminated.

 

Also Stardock's mission as a company is not to be our friends, to act as a charity, or to promote equal and just access to any and all information. They are in the business of digital entertainment and are offering various options for consumers to purchase their products. As a marketing decision they created the incentive of access to extraneous art, videos, and other documents to those who pre-purchase their products (i.e. Founders). But again, the majority of the core and most valuable information about their product is being disseminated to the general public, not only to Founders.