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Sorcerer King Beta: Week 2

Sorcerer King Beta: Week 2

Greetings!

HOLY COW! Things are coming along great! And much of the reason for that is you.

We’ve gotten a huge amount of really constructive feedback from the community. Anyone who doubts the usefulness of “Early Access” needs to be sent to the Sorcerer King and/or Stardock forums.

Your wish is my command: UNREST!

We got a lot of requests to bring Unrest back in some form.  But we wanted to do it in a way that connected it tightly to the overall game.

So here’s how it works:

Every 100 points of Doomsday generates 1 unrest for a given city.  Every point of unrest reduces logistics by 1.

Simple right?

And yet, the consequences are far reaching.  If you city spam, you can really cripple yourself because the unrest is not connected to population. It’s per city.  Unrest represents your people falling under the thrall of the Sorcerer King.

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As the Sorcerer King becomes more powerful, your citizens start to worship him instead of, well, you. This is per city so be careful about spamming cities.

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Unrest sucks away at your precious logistics

 

Your sovereign’s tech..er skill tree will have the ability to lower unrest per city. That means, of course, less magic for mana and learning spells.

The player gets to take off the kiddie gloves: Trade magical power for more fertile tiles if you dare!

As you know, in Sorcerer King you can only found cities where there is food.  By default, those places can be few and far between.  We did this so that new players wouldn’t wreck themselves by overloading on cities without realizing the potential consequences (the unrest mechanic just reinforces that).

But what about experienced players? If only there was some, I dunno, magical way to let people build more cities.

Hmm. Magic.

Hence, we are bringing back the restoration spell.  If you have the mana, you can revive the land.  The Sorcerer King likes that sort of thing of course but it means you gain a lot more control over what types of strategies you want to employ.

Sorcerer King’s terrain engine – how much are you willing to destroy the world to save it?

The terrain in the Elemental games have a distinctive look.  We didn’t realize that it was so distinctive until the Sorcerer King beta came out and people made a point of saying that they could tell it was related to Fallen Enchantress.  This was a highly useful bit of feedback because, to be honest, we didn’t see it.

The players are right. Elemental games do have a distinctive look to their terrain.  There’s a reason for that.

When the engine was being designed, we required the terrain to be as morphable as Populous.  Morphable terrain has a distinctive look because the land has to be, well morphable.

Remember Populous 3? Well, here’s some screenshots. They might seem…familiar.

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Populous 3

But, you say, Fallen Enchantress didn’t morph its terrain.  You’re right.  We took out the spells that morphed terrain because we couldn’t balance it.  The bulk of our 3D engine was ignored because it was impossible for the AI to deal with a world that was morphable like this.  So we took it out.

But…Sorcerer King doesn’t have that problem.  You want to lock yourself behind a mountain range? Knock yourself out. The Sorcerer King would be pleased if you holed up back there and let him take control of all the minors.

Want to Volcano an enemy? Go for it.  Want to flood the continent? Have at it.  Basically, because this is an ASYMETRICAL MAGIC game there’s no reason not to let the player loose on the world. 

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Oh no, I’m stuck by a huge mountain pass. I guess I should just go around. Or wait, no, I’m a powerful wizard.

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There we go

Now, players of Fallen Enchantress knew we had spells like this but they were made so limited and so expensive and there were so few of them that they were more a gimmick than an interesting part of the game.  But now that the player is encourage to annihilate enemies en-masse (pillar of fire? Pish posh) the question will be how much are you willing to wreck the world to save it?

Map Sizes:  Big is really big

Click on the screenshot and you can see how big the large maps are going to be.

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The bigger the world the longer it takes for the Sorcerer King to become a god.  While obviously necessary it is makes it a very different game.  I must confess, I haven’t finished a game on large. It takes hundreds of turns to win on tiny.  Large is going to be for the truly dedicated as it’ll probably take thousands of turns.

Beta 2: November 6

We will have an opt-in beta coming up that will have really rough versions of this with the official beta 2 date being November 6.

Stay tuned!

148,400 views 51 replies
Reply #26 Top

I think unrest was first brought into games to counter the desire from a few gamer's for city spamming.  It was fail then, and is still fail today.  There has to be a better way such as the one city per region system used by Endless legends.  Anything but unrest.  :)

What ever the reasons for it, I don't think unrest is the answer.

Reply #27 Top

We'll call them thralls.

Reply #28 Top

Wow, all of this unrest over unrest.

I for one, enjoy the mechanic. It's realistic and it's challenging to overcome, which adds to the strategy concerns. i don't remember any of this dissent when it was introduced in Legendary Heroes.

i say stick with it, Frog. We can give feedback once it's introduced.

 

How long until the opt in beta choice?

Reply #29 Top

Quoting XWerewolfX, reply 28

Wow, all of this unrest over unrest.

I for one, enjoy the mechanic. It's realistic and it's challenging to overcome, which adds to the strategy concerns. i don't remember any of this dissent when it was introduced in Legendary Heroes.

i say stick with it, Frog. We can give feedback once it's introduced.

 

How long until the opt in beta choice?

 

So what are we aiming for here, Legendary Heroes mark 2?  And there I was thinking, new game, new ideas.  

Oh, what's the point? No developer seems willing to take the risk these days, it just a different deal from the same old pack.  I best just get use to it I suppose.

 

By the way Frogboy, I really like the other stuff you have planned. So no worries there.  :)

 

Do you want to know my cure for unrest in LH?  Of course you don't, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

Once a city goes above 50% unrest, I demolish the ******.  Then I build a new ******.  It's called the 'I don't give a ****'  solution.  ;)

Reply #30 Top

To me, the point of any mechanic that discourages city spamming is ultimately to combat late game city micromanagement.

When you have 5 or more cities, it gets kind of tedious to build the same buildings over and over. I've experienced this in SK too, even with a tiny map, towards the end.

In that regard, I liked the Warlock system where you could only build buildings on city levelup. It would also cut down on 'city prompts' (it would effectively roll into one the Build Improvement + Claim Tile prompts). I think that fits well into the 'simplified city system'goal this game has going.

Reply #31 Top

I think I'm might be in a minority in wanting more focus on cities and economy, but the concept of "loyalty" would really go well with a deep set of luxury goods that your cities/minors can produce & trade. So in the beginning, you don't need much to keep people loyal and productive, but as the sorcerer king gets more intimidating maybe you specialize a city in producing Wine, it can easily produce enough to boost the loyalty of X cities, and would have to specialize deeper to boost the loyalty of 2X cities. Some luxury goods could come from trade with Minors ( as long as you keep them alive). So at the end of the game you either have to manage an increasingly complex economy to keep people happy (or maybe just able to binge on booze and food until they forget the coming doomsday) or expect your production to dwindle.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting Tattyhat, reply 22

With LH, I have to stop playing, so that I can handle unrest.  Like answering the door, phone, or fixing the shed roof in the snow, it drags me from game-mode and slaps me into work-mode.  How can this be classed as fun?

It's a game, not a political simulator for gauging the feel-good-factor of young voters.

 

Much of that is because the unrest mechanic in LH is poorly done and slapped together.   This is being handled differently, so it might not be as bad.

 

 

 

 

Reply #33 Top

Unrest is a mechanic that adds depth, realism and fun to the game. Depth because it is one more factor to care about, realism because it resembles what would happen in a similar situation if it could be "real" and fun because having to properly manage your cities is a big part where the fun comes in a 4X.

It has been said that unrest turns the game into "yet another city management game". Well, as I said before I think the factor that makes the difference in SK is the chance to have a RPG into a real sandbox world. Not yet another RPG scripted game, even if the script is a very big script, but an RPG game into a "real" world (or sandbox) where each inhabitant of this world has its own life and just the pretense of it through a clever history.

Another big part of unrest is that it helps making SK into a mix of RPG and 4X, the best of both worlds, but in this it is not alone, as LH is also a (very good) mix of RPG and 4X.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Tattyhat, reply 26

I think unrest was first brought into games to counter the desire from a few gamer's for city spamming.  It was fail then, and is still fail today.  There has to be a better way such as the one city per region system used by Endless legends.  Anything but unrest.  :)

What ever the reasons for it, I don't think unrest is the answer.

 

Endless Legend has 'unrest'...  Jes saying...

 

The best solution to this 'problem' is to make all cities work the way systems worked in MoO3.  You know, just macro everything.  You can set priorities for your kingdom and army, but essentially it's up to the AI to actually make the decisions for you.

 

Personally I'd love that, it levels the playing field between player and computer since both are ultimately using the same AI routine to handle aspects of their empires.  Then again I loved MoO3 (with patches), so I'm probably not the guy you're going to listen to.

 

All that said, I agree in principle that SK is moving away from the asymmetry I figured it would have and is becoming just another 4x.  Oh well, so be it, it can still be good.

 

But why is it so easy to plop out cities?  Unrest or no unrest, it's simply silly to imaging that in this 'new world' you can just settler spam.  Better would be to only allow outposts to be built, but give them a chance to mature into a village/city/whatever over time, or if you spend resources or do quests or something other than just, YAWN Settler SPAM!

Reply #35 Top

Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 33

Unrest is a mechanic that adds depth, realism and fun to the game. Depth because it is one more factor to care about, realism because it resembles what would happen in a similar situation if it could be "real" and fun because having to properly manage your cities is a big part where the fun comes in a 4X.

There's that word again: 'Realism'.  Realism is for flight simulators.  For every gram that you LIKE unrest, I hate it a kilogram more.  I know there are many more that hate unrest in games, but are not as vocal as myself.

 

Quoting uberlicker, reply 34

Endless Legend has 'unrest'...  Jes saying...

 

This is true, but there is no need for it.  Like I was saying, it seems that every developer feels obliged to bung in some 'unrest' if there any sort of city building in the game, even when not necessary.

 

Quoting Frogboy, reply 27

We'll call them thralls.

That's is probably a very good idea as the word 'unrest' brings me out in a purple rash.

Reply #36 Top

Unrest is fine. It represents even your own people thinking of being disloyal to you as the SK's power grows stronger and stronger. Seems pretty thematic to me and the mechanic serves a useful purpose, as well.

Reply #37 Top

I guess unrest is fine as a cosmetic, but when it starts to hamper your game play in a real sense, then it's a pain in the bum and no fun, make's me want to drink rum, save scum, and ring mom.   X|

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Tattyhat, reply 37

I guess unrest is fine as a cosmetic, but when it starts to hamper your game play in a real sense, then it's a pain in the bum and no fun, make's me want to drink rum, save scum, and ring mom.   X|

 

How does unrest even hamper your game? Build the Onyx Thrones and Bell towers etc and it goes away.

And plus you get very cool looking improvement added to your fortress.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Ericridge, reply 38


Quoting Tattyhat,

I guess unrest is fine as a cosmetic, but when it starts to hamper your game play in a real sense, then it's a pain in the bum and no fun, make's me want to drink rum, save scum, and ring mom.   X|



 

How does unrest even hamper your game? Build the Onyx Thrones and Bell towers etc and it goes away.

And plus you get very cool looking improvement added to your fortress.

 

I think it's the way I play.  I get everyone cheesed off with me pretty quick.  Then they won't do any work, so I kills them.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Tattyhat, reply 39


Quoting Ericridge,






Quoting Tattyhat,



I guess unrest is fine as a cosmetic, but when it starts to hamper your game play in a real sense, then it's a pain in the bum and no fun, make's me want to drink rum, save scum, and ring mom.   X|



 

How does unrest even hamper your game? Build the Onyx Thrones and Bell towers etc and it goes away.

And plus you get very cool looking improvement added to your fortress.



 

I think it's the way I play.  I get everyone cheesed off with me pretty quick.  Then they won't do any work, so I kills them.

 

If you Grab like 20+ cities in five turns, its only normal your unrest will go nuts. Cuz huge gain in short space of time.

And each conquered cities have an period of rebellion before they embrace your rule.

I find the pacing in FE:LH to be pretty very natural. In start, shrines/clerics/belltowers/town halls will be enough for you.

As you start to become an full fledged kingdom/empire, around that time the prisons for fortresses should be coming online.

Building the prisons will let you keep the expansion going on until it starts to become uncomfortable then onyx thrones, 1-2 of them should be unlocked by now. And then, infinite expansion is unlocked as long as you keep onyx thrones coming online at reasonable pace.

 

I've even found myself skipping prisons and going straight for onyx thrones just to test it out, and it worked well enough.

I only put myself onto consolidation of my current holdings and built up armies. And then when Onyx thrones came online, my soldiers was an unstoppable tsunami.

 

And I don't even use any of hero unrest reduction tricks at all, they're far more useful commanding armies!

 

Razing everything is an fair and legitimate option, I did it before!

I felt like watching the world burn xD

 

Edit: Also, Populous 3 lol, If I remember right, the cavemen in that game will hump trees or am I wrong?

Reply #41 Top

I just done a experiment.  I started a new game of LH and kept two city's at 0% unrest far into the game without killing the populous.  It was quite interesting this time around, but I can't see it being very interesting or fun in future games.   It's just something you HAVE to do if you want to carry on killing stuff.  :)

 

Anyone here playing Galactic civ 3 and can recommend buying it yet?  I like Galactic civ 2 and was just wondering.

Reply #42 Top

I got the Gal Civ III beta and it's quite fun. Obviously it is missing a lot of features (diplomacy is quite rudimentary, not all the races are playable or as opponents and not all the victory conditions are enabled) but I found it quite an entertaining little 4X game. I didn't play much Gal Civ II so I can't really compare the two. Definitely think Gal Civ III has the potential to be an excellent game, though. 

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Thormodr, reply 42

I got the Gal Civ III beta and it's quite fun. Obviously it is missing a lot of features (diplomacy is quite rudimentary, not all the races are playable or as opponents and not all the victory conditions are enabled) but I found it quite an entertaining little 4X game. I didn't play much Gal Civ II so I can't really compare the two. Definitely think Gal Civ III has the potential to be an excellent game, though. 

 

Thanks for the info.  

It was a toss-up between Gal Civ 3 and the up-and-coming Stardrive 2.  I like getting involved in early access, just so long as you end up with a finished game, and I believe the guy behind Stardrive doesn't finish his games, so that sort of cut's down my choices.

Reply #44 Top

Stardrive 2 is already much, much better than SD1. Trust me.

Galactic Civilizations 3 is fun for the first time since it became available, but the ship combat and the diplomacy are so bare bones that it doesn't remain so for very long.

Reply #45 Top

Stardrive 2 looks pretty neat. 4X with some RPG elements. Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on that one.

It'd be nice to be able to have heroes in Gal Civ III, IMHO.

Reply #46 Top

So has anyone started a new game, or are you waiting for the next Beta build?

Reply #47 Top

I'm kind of waiting for the next beta build.

I was putting Gal Civ III through the paces as well as catching up on my reading. :)

Reply #48 Top

Me too. While waiting, I have been playing GalCiv3 and PBEM Minesweeper.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting XWerewolfX, reply 44

Stardrive 2 is already much, much better than SD1. Trust me.


 

What about these allegations that this Zero being a con merchant, any truth in them Wolfie, or just hot air?  I know he has locked to forums to none game owners.  That's a bit shady.   :borg:

Reply #50 Top

I'm waiting for next build as well- and maybe even Beta 3, while I enjoy what I played- I don't like preset maps at all.