City Level Up Choices

I applaud this effort but I have to slightly disagree with how you went about it.  I personally think there are slightly too many choices and would actually simplify the choices to make it easier for the AI to stay competitive.

My opinion on this problems is that there should ultimately be six city types based from the three current types and then make the final two level choices mean something.

So from the town you would have two choices, money or food production.  This is the primary purpose of the town in the overall design anyways.  Are you going to have a city that supports the empire at its own sacrifice (food) or a town that eschews unit/food/research for pure money production.  This can also help the AI by making the city choices more relevant by doing a calculated AI rating evaluation by adding a hidden stat to certain resource nodes.  There is a wild grain the city is more likely to be a town focusing on empire food production.  There is a gold mine it is more likely to be a money producer.

Follow this example on the fortress as well.  Make the two choices at level three be a defensive fort or a training fort.  Make it so that the defensive fort can only make simple (fast producing) units.  While advanced unit are produced at the training centers (more similar to modern and ancient militaries).

Finally for the conclave have the two choices be research focus or producing mages.

Take this with a grain of salt but this is something I have been thinking on for a while.

Ooh this might be fun to talk about..
As about my picks this might reveal how much I tend to play like..

Conclave lvl 3.

I tend to try to place Conclaves in 3 essence tiles so that location will select the Oracle for +1 essence for a total of 4 essences
so that I maximize the benefit from shrine of mana building that gives mana for each essence slot.
Otherwise the first conclave I build will always build the Scroll scribe first no matter what because it gives you access to
purchaseable blizzard scrolls which can rescue you from a world in trouble, they're expensive but worth the gold.

Each hero packs at least one scroll scribe can save you from at least one nasty army and make the AI pay a expensive price
to kill your army plus the hero.

I ignore the Archivist because I'm always busy building stuff, conclaves don't really build research unless they're done building
schools and such. And it takes forever to build them in a 3 hammer tile.

Basically archivists is really such a horrible pick in my eyes. Unless you build an conclave in 5 hammer tile but really.. those tiles
could've had an town instead generating you income and grain xD Hmm I think I can see the benefit of archivists in high production tiles..

Lvl 4 Conclave..
I used to always pick Academy of Revelation until I discovered how shocking expensive endgame weapons and armor is,
they require only crystals of you train them but if you upgrade em, you require crystal/gold!

Thus, Academy of Revelation became worthless in my eyes and I always go with Amethyst Vault to help prepare my empire for the endgame.
Because +2 Crystal each season is basically an extra fully upgraded unpillageable crystal mine inside the city xD

Tenfell University: I can see the benefit of this but only when the conclave is in an isolated location. And current map scripts
guarantee that there is no truly isolated location as in the maps isn't big enough lol thus this upgrade always get ignored.

Lvl 5 Conclave:
Conclave gain population very slowly to the point where growth is 0-1? You have to pay attention to your conclaves if you want
them to reach level 5.
Pyre of annihilation = stronger falling star spam!
Hedigah Bathhouse = hey lets peek at those ladies!
Tower of Magi = Meh meh meh +10 spell resistance eh. Maybe in an 5 essence tile with Oracle built boosting it to six. But I almost
never see those five essence slot tiles. Superbly enchanted troops but they'll be very inaccurate when compared to guys out of
fortresses unless you devote some research into accuracy tech.

Conclusion: FE:LH doesn't really feel magical due to lack of magical troops for everyone except for pariden. Generally
everyone gets Mages and aegis robe then that's it.

Fortress lvl 3
Strike Garrison is the obvious superior choice here because it can make the difference of you reaching that nasty juggernaught and
stabbing it to death before it aoes you to death.
Watch Tower meh meh meh you're telling me to waste a city level up for militia that only fights for you once? Nah nope!
Infirmary: I have benefited from this upgrade once. It gets super useful when you have tons and tons of armies that's doing
lots and lots of battles but your heroes is busy. Especially on an frontier when there is numberous monsters attacking enough to
make you want to have lots of soldiers there. Its one of those upgrades that becomes more useful when the AI becomes more competent.

Fortress lvl 4!
Gallows is good for those super isolated locations, good example would be war of anthys when you sneak in a single pioneer
onto the empire dominated side of continent. An gallows there will ensure that it runs smoothly. Same reasons like tenfell university xD

Prison used to be a nobrainer for me but then after I discovered the endgame and how much I tend to crank out troops.. Mining Guild
became more useful to me. U'll be surprised at how quickly I deplete my supply of metal during endgame even with
master armorsmith perks.

Basically it became pretty tough decision between mining guild or prisons, and mining guild pretty much win almost every time for me now.

Fortress lvl 5!

Whenever I reach level 5 in Fortress I always start picking Onyx thrones to start erasing my unrest and allow me to expand wide and far.

Great arena +1 atk and 3 hp? Meh. maybe if it gave +10 atk and +30 hp. Considering that weapons at this point already do +18 damage per
troop unit or more and constitution perk gives +3 hp.

Underforge.. does it stack with master armorsmithing perks? Or nope? If no then I have no reason whatsoever to pick this up and I don't
think it stacks with war college either.. or Weaponsmith.. so if I was to pick this then I would be picking it for the +1 Earth power
overall very sucky upgrade if you're playing an faction skilled in armorsmithing otherwise it's an incredible upgrade for factions that
lack this perk. All those obscenely expensive plate armored troops just got alot more spammable for them!

Conclusion: Choices in Fortresses is much more interesting than conclaves.

Now for towns!

Guild Grocer is awesome. Enough said. xD Over nine thousand!!! hp in an army made possible by guild grocerors lol
Slums for when you need intense pioneer spam and natural growth ain't just cutting it.
Warehouse is pretty decent but very difficult decision and is made obslete by the fact that theres' an economy research which
makes you generate 10% more gpt for each time u research it so after five researches and warehouse is useless lol.

Lvl 4 towns..
This level i just roleplay.

Lets see I want at least one governor's office set up then rest of my towns will just have almhouses because I am awesome.
No point in embassies when you have Fortresses looking after your back. Although I can see how awesome almhouses will be for altar. xD


Lvl 5 Towns..

Guild Lending Houses: Don't underestimate how 2k gildar on the spot with no questions asked can save your ass. I once had four towns
hitting lvl 5 at same time and so I build Guild lending houses in all of them and upgraded all my quivering in fear leather armored
spearmen to plate armored spearmen and succeeded in fending off an epic invasion from Vergas. He accused me of hacks shortly afterward.
Its one of those upgrades you won't build unless you're in that oh crap shit yer pants mode.

Guild Tribunal is one of those no brainer picks because its basically an defacto level upgrade because other two upgrades is dependant
on conditionals. Like you will always go with this if town don't have very much material.

Mint of Ruvenna is one of those upgrades that can easily give you nuts gold per turn. 5 Gildar per material.
I had towns with 9 material before and that translates into 45 gildar per turn. Now if that 9 material town also had five essence slots
enchanted with arcane forge? fourteen material! 65 gildar per turn easily xD And it can support the economy real fast.

In general I dont really like alot of your suggestions Gfireflye except for the tower of magi one because it actually improves it!
And with enough tower of magis built the power of mages will be lost and people will be forced to stab each other when falling star
becomes very ineffective and the spells is used for their debuffs instead of damage output xD

It'll be great if crappy choices was looked at and improved without nerfing the already awesome choices to make me bite my nails as I
choose an upgrade.

And yes, it would be great if there was more Fame milestones and ways to use your fame other than making heroes appear to service you.
Because at the moment almhouses only benefit altar unless you're trying to get those real high level heroes xD And after you done recruiting
them the almhouses is now useless D=

I only can hope my post is helpful.

Excellent Post !!! Many thanks for the insights and the suggestions.

One quick newbie question: do "empire-wide" bonuses such as Academy of Revelation or Governor's Office or Guild Tribunal stack with each other as more cities in your empire reach higher levels and acquire them?

If so, the net effects (stacked) could be quite formidable !!!

Best, Bendiwolf

I pretty much think you're spot on here.  I'm kinda surprised there's not an option like "Mana Battery: +5% Mana on Empire"  Pair that with the Oracle, and would you take the Oracle every time?  I don't think I would; at some point the Mana Battery is going to yield more than an Oracle ever could, especially if you had multiple mana batteries going.  But the Oracle is sure a great boost to a single city...

Here, I don't agree so much. 

You say Strike Garrison is obviously better than Infirmary or Watchtower, but I don't see it.  Infirmary is especially good: remember that +1 hit point per level is also per troop, and as your troop count upgrades, so does the unit's hit points.  I honestly think in the long run this is far and away the the best option in this tier.  Also the +10 healing per turn is great if you play with the options I do: huge map, low opponent count, dense monsters and many wildlands.  Having a safe haven to where an army can retreat to heal quickly is vital in this scenario. However this also depends on what type of magic, and thus city enchantments, I have (Air vs Life vs Earth, etc.)

In any case, you don't explain how you might fix either (Infirmary or Watchtower), neither do you call for their removal.  I personally would remove the Great Arena completely or make it a World Wonder (beefing it up a bit and adding a fame bonus as well.)  Then I would add something completely new in its place, like a Hall of Warriors or something which could give a -50% upkeep bonus to troops built in this city (the Hall being an inspiration to the Kingdom's warriors-to-be, inspiring volunteerism, etc etc.)  Or something else.  But I agree that options like the Mining guild are basically useless.

Fortress should concentrate on troops.

I honestly think the town upgrades leave the most to be desired of the three city types.

Quick thought: What if the Guild Lending House was moved to level 3 and read thus: "+2000 Gildar, -20% Gildar on Empire"

I will add some thoughts to this when time permits, but now to sleep.

yes

Excellent post, GfireflyE.

I almost always pick the same upgrades as you do -although in 800 hours of play I have never reached level 5 in a city -.

Your suggestions are very good as well; I cannot think of anything I'd do differently.

Interesting approach. I did not think SD was up to such radical ideas. Thus, I did not pursue alternatives that would change the mechanic too much, and instead focused on attempting to make the mechanic better.

I am surprised by this. In the games I play, I am often swimming in extra metal and crystal; so much so that I'm altering my improvements to consume more. See my 1.7 games comments for details.

If I end up being short in a resource, I tend to buy it quickly...find one, slap and outpost down and rush build. The AI is just not smart enough to target all of my sites at the same time.

Fantastic idea!

I don't think the Infirmary or Watchtower are necessarily bad choices. They both provide interesting and useful benefit. However, when up against the Strike Garrison, I just don't think either would ever be picked. So I am faced with several choices:

• Decrease Strike Garrison's bonus
• Increase Infirmary and Watertower bonuses
• Remove the need to choose.

I chose the last option and moved Strike Garrison to level 4 where it's new choice-adversaries hold up much better.

Building on halma1242's ideas, my suggestions for Level 3 cities are as follows:

Lvl 3 Town

1. Breadbasket-This town concentrates on growing food for other cities. The town generates bonuses for global food production, which increase at Lvls 4 and 5; units would have increased HP due to better food supply. The town's shop would have various food items to heal characters.
2. Financial Center-This town concentrates on making money; it would build various buildings that produce income for the faction. Higher levels produce more money. It could also allow players to purchase items like horses, wargs, metal and crystal (with suitable buildings).
3. Industrial Park- This town emphasizes faction wide production. All cities get added production from an IP, with increased bonuses at Lvl 4 and 5. It could also have buildings to produce metal.

Lvl 3 Fortress

1. Military Base- This fortress is a full military base designed to defend your faction. The town would have defensive bonuses for troops and a better equipped militia garrison. It would have access to buildings giving bonuses similar to military outposts. Shops would sell armor and weapons.
2. Military Academy- A fortress specializing in troop training. Levels would unlock training buildings and armories to train and equip troops, plus bonuses to trained units. Shops would sell armor and weapons.
3. Administrative Center-This fortress helps in running your faction's territory. It would generate global unrest reduction, fame and other bonuses.

Lvl 3 Conclave

1. Research Center-Dedicated to pure research; generates increased research for itself plus global research bonuses.
2. Mage Academy-This conclave specializes in training mages. Training facilites for mages plus buildings to produce enchanted (crystal) items more efficiently. Shops would sell scrolls, potions, etc.
3. Mana Factory-Focuses on generating increased mana plus crystal production.

Notice that shops would have more specialized inventories depending on the city it is located at.

The existing city bonuses can easily be integrated into my proposed system.

Oh yes Gfireflye have you ever tried creating 9 unit armies with six men each out of fortresses at same time? Your stockpile will vanish very fast xD

When I start to get rolling and start to assemble armies everywhere my resources will vanish. So that consume more change will result in me running out of resources even faster.

And my resource generation of the kingdom I have in other thread you saw at the moment is 95 metal a turn and 68.5 crystals a turn and that isn't enough for me at all xD Horses at 2.4 and Wargs at 3.2

As for my Mana I have very good stockpile of them with 118 mana a turn at the moment due to the lack of willing enemies to fight me.

But at the moment I only have 564 metal/490 crystal and that's because all my fortresses is currently preoccupied with training armies in queue for at least 9-36 turns xD

With those types or resource incomes, why haven't you won the game yet? A quick march to the Master Quest or tech race to Spell of Mastery should be no problem...

Because that would be very boring end. I loathe stuff like spell of mastery abruptly ending a game when it shouldn't been over yet.

So I always play with spell mastery disabled and fight the AI instead. Its fun having lots of unit types and getting to use them all.

I do stuff like all golem army for lols and slowly stab the enemy to death. This is my only source of amusement until stardock finally make the AI understand how unrest works. Otherwise I will just stop playing FE:LH and play civ5 or Aow3 instead at least the AIs in CIv5 understands their version of ICS Limiters like unhappiness. While to ICS in AOW3 you need gold and population And it has its natural limitations.

Plus its kinda fun to have 30+ armies running around and exploring the world. Busting open each last bit of loot hut, sometimes i find stuff i haven't seen before! And plus because I drag on the game for very long, I still find events that I haven't seen before xD Although I think i have seen most of them at this point.

Great thread.

Also, TIL that everyone plays LH very differently For instance, Guild Warehouse is stupid powerful if you can make yourself not build every building in every city -- a town with only the food it needs to grow plus market/tax office/well/inn can generate an insane amount of cash off of Warehouse/Produce Wealth from a very early point in the game.

Anyway, like I said elsewhere I'll point this discussion out to Derek. I don't think any radical revamps of city upgrades are coming in the two days before 1.7 release or anything, but it's certainly worth looking at.

Glad to hear our thoughts are valued.  I for one, and I am sure many others here, appreciate it!

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

You could always push 1.7 release back another week. I'd be willing to wait.

One thing I noticed is that many city upgrades are essentially free buildings (prison, arena). I was thinking many of those upgrades could be made buildings instead; then maybe city leveling could grant effects similar to upgraded outposts?

Here's an older discussion of this:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/449887

Also, I would point out that your list of the benefits of several of the structures is incomplete. Scroll Scribes provide shop access for Blizzard, Return, and Air Elemental scrolls, while the Tower of the Magi grants the city it is built within immunity to certain types of strategic spells.

Recommended Changes for Conclave level up improvements:

• Reduce Scroll Scribe's Research bonus from 20% down to 10%
• Move Oracle to level 4 Conclave upgrade. 
• Move Tenfell University to level 3 Conclave upgrade. 
• Improve Tenfell University's bonus by adding "+1 Fame per Season" 
• Change Amethyst Vault to be "+1 Crystal per Essence per Season"
• Reduce Academy of Revelation's global Research bonus from 10% down to 5%
• The Pyre of Anniellum should have an additional +10% Unrest penalty. 
• Reduce Hedigah Bathhouse's Unrest bonus from -30% down to -20% 
• Change the Tower of the Magi's bonus to be a global effect for all units trained.

The suggested addition of fame per turn to the Tenfell University is basically useless. Unless I'm building Henchmen/Sions, I hardly care about fame past the first couple of champions, and I'm not going to have a Tenfell University in time for the first couple champions even if it is a level 3 city improvement, nor is the removal of the unrest penalty to research particularly worthwhile on an early level 3 city, as at that point in the game you ought to have low unrest anyways. I would instead suggest that the Tenfell University should get a local research bonus or unlock additional scrolls (e.g. Fireball and Wellspring) to complement the removal of the unrest penalty to research. I also think you're over-valuing the benefits of +1 essence; +1 essence locally is good, but I don't think it's really all that comparable to a global +5-10% research, particularly not when the majority of the scaling enchantments are geared towards unit production.

Thematically speaking, I feel that the Tower of the Magi should perhaps get the Air Shard bonus you've suggested for your new level 5 Fortress structure; Air, Fire, and Water shards are the three main shard types that I want, and a choice between the three of them seems fairly reasonable. After all, for me the main question at Conclave level 5 is "do I want 2 fire or 1 water shard?" If I have a level 5 conclave in my empire, the unrest should already be at a manageable level, and I don't think that the 10 unrest on the Pyre or the 10 less unrest reduction on the Bathhouse would make a difference to my choice at that point. I would also tend to say that the Tower of the Magi could be a third scroll (or other consumable) producing structure, though I'd have to think about what spells I'd want to see made available through scrolls, or what other types of consumables I'd want to see.

Recommended Changes for Fortress level up improvements:

• Move Strike Garrison to level 4 Fortress upgrade
• Remove Mining Guild as a possible level up option
• Improve Gallows by adding "+1 Growth"
• Move Great Arena to level 3 Fortress upgrade
• Reduce Great Arena's Hitpoint bonus from +3 down to +1
• Rename "Great Arena" to "Arena". (Likewise, rename the once per faction "Arena" to "Great Arena" or "Great Coliseum")
• Create a new level 5 Fortress Upgrade: Grand Citadel - Trained units get +10 Dodge and +1 Air Power (global effect)
• Reduce the Onyx Throne's Unrest bonus from -30% down to -20%.
• Improve the Underforge by adding "-50% Production of Weapons" in addition to the Armor.

I disagree with moving Strike Garrision to level 4. The other two structures that grant a troop trait are at level 3, and I'd prefer to keep the number of free traits you can add to your units down. The change to the Gallows is thematically odd to me; a structure where people are hung by the neck until dead is not a structure that I would expect to increase a city's growth rate, especially if it's like some of the historical gallows where the people having been hung are left hanging there to serve as a warning to the populace until the bodies begin coming apart. I also disagree with moving the Great Arena down to level 3, though I agree with swapping its name with the one-per-faction Arena; +1 attack +1-3 HP on a level 3 fortress is a fairly powerful bonus in the early game. I will additionally say that I don't really believe that the +3 HP per figure from the Great Arena is all that much of a bonus; on 6-figure units, that's only +18 health on something that likely has over 100 health to start with.

I tend to agree with the proposed change to the Underforge (though another alternative would be a defense and accuracy bonus due to higher-quality weapons and armor, sort of the inverse of the Great Arena), and I would suggest that either the Underforge or the Onyx Throne could perhaps take the Tower of the Magi's spell resistance bonus to trained troops so as to put that bonus somewhere useful.

I believe that the Gallows has two major issues: firstly, reducing unrest by 10 in all cities is just a much better deal than removing the unrest penalty from one city's production, especially if your unrest levels are not unreasonably high. Secondly, the Gallows is a worse version of the Slave Pens used by Empire factions, which Empire factions can eventually build in every city they have, which both remove the local production penalty due to unrest and improve local production. As a result, I would suggest that the Gallows be changed to some other means of improving local production, such as a local production bonus (e.g. the +1 local production per material suggested for the Governor's Office).

Recommended Changes for Town level up improvements:

• Move Guild Grocer to level 4 Town upgrade
• Increase the Slums Unrest penalty from +5% up to +10%.
• Move Almshouse to level 3 Town upgrade
• Increase Almshouse Fame bonus from +1 per Season up to +3 per Season
• Decrease the Almshouse upgrade by adding the penalty "-1 Gildar per Season"
• Decrease the Governor Office upgrade to just "+1 Production per Material", ie remove the global effect.
• Change the Guild Tribunal to be "+1 Gildar per Material in all your cities"

The changes to the Almshouse do not seem worthwhile to me. Yes, 3 fame per season is better than 1 fame per season, and having it at level 3 rather than level 4 makes it more accessible, but, as with the suggested change to the Tenfell University, fame just isn't something I care about after I've obtained the first couple of champions, unless I'm playing with Henchmen or Sions. Fame is only useful for obtaining champions, but champions just aren't something I need, or even want, after I get a few of them to lead my armies. Worse, you've added an upkeep cost to the Almshouse, meaning that you have to pay for a low income of an already relatively low-value resource. This change also means that level 3 Towns now have 3 upgrades that are very situational and not very appealing instead of two situational upgrades and one that is always useful. This is only an improvement over the current system in that there would then be no obvious choice (because none of the options are good) rather than having one obvious choice because one of the three improvements is actually worth having.

I feel that the change suggested for the Governor's Office is basically useless; as with Conclaves and the Tower of the Magi, Towns are not cities that I actually want to build anything other than infrastructure in, though local production is more worthwhile than spell resistance on trained units. Beyond that, if you move the Guild Grocer to level 4 and change the Governor's Office to a local effect, you've removed the only feature of the Governor's Office which would allow it to compete with the Guild Grocer. Stacking +5% health on all your units is far better than +1 local production per material in a city I don't really want to be building stuff in anyways. I am also somewhat surprised you have no suggestions for the Embassy, which is an almost useless structure as the main purpose of Towns is the production of food and gold for the empire, neither of which are affected by unrest.

The Guild Tribunal change seems reasonable to me, as it was already more or less a better version of the Governor's Office, though perhaps the Governor's Office should be the structure with the gold bonus (to indicate more efficient taxation) while the Guild Tribunal keeps its production bonus (to indicate a certain standard of craftsmanship).

I would also tend to suggest that the Guild Lending House should perhaps be changed to generate treasury interest like the Treasury Vault does (and why is the Treasury Vault a world wonder rather than a one-per-faction structure, anyways?), increase the city's base income by some small amount, or grant an ability to obtain a lump sum of gold in exchange for an income penalty for X turns, rather than having a one-time 2000 gold bonus. 2000 gold barely covers mid-game champion equipment for a single champion, let alone high-end equipment for several, and it's also easily blown rushing a couple low-level city improvements or small, ill-equipped troops.

A further change that I would suggest is that both the Guild Warehouse and the Archivist should have some kind of ongoing bonus rather than having a bonus which is only in effect while producing Wealth or Research. The main reason why the Archivist is less appealing than the Scroll Scribe is that the Conclave has so much infrastructure to build even if you're only building research improvements that 'Produce Research' is too far off to worry much about; the Scroll Scribe, on the other hand, gives you an ongoing +20% research and access to several useful shop items. Even if the only ongoing bonus the Archivist received was the same set of scrolls available from the Scroll Scribe, it'd be more competitive, though I'd sooner see something like +1 research for the ongoing bonus. The Guild Warehouse has a similar issue, though Towns require much less infrastructure to maximize gold production than Conclaves do to maximize research production (for starters, you can skip the majority of the unrest reduction structures as gold production is unaffected by unrest levels, and then there's also only about 4 gold structures compared to 6 or so research structures), but the main issue for the Guild Warehouse is that most sites have a rather low basic gold income, once you get down to it. A Town with all the gold bonus structures in it might have perhaps 10 gold income per turn before bonuses from Produce Wealth; with Produce Wealth and a Guild Warehouse, this is something like 20 gold income per turn. Then you apply the tax rate, and you're only getting 4 gold per turn (on low taxes because we don't want to cripple our other cities with unrest) out of that 20 potential income from the Town. This in a game where low-cost champion trinkets typically cost over 100 gold, where rush-buying early game units easily tops 100 gold per unit, and where rush-buying structures is similarly expensive. If you find an exceptional site, then it can be worthwhile; otherwise, I don't feel that it's worth bothering with. All you need is enough gold to cover unit maintenance; using loot to equip (or pay for the equipment for) your two or three active champions and sovereign is sufficient and in fact typically better unless you're just really unlucky with loot drops, and you don't need to rush buy much in most circumstances anyways (about the only exception is when you need to do something in a high-unrest location, and even so, as long as the unrest is less than about 50% it's not really worth rushing anything).