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Realism/Logistics for GCIII

Realism/Logistics for GCIII

Having played Galactic Civilizations II: Twilight of the Arnor, I feel that one of the least developed aspects of the game is the logistics associated with star travel. Travel from one star to another is an extremely massive and difficult undertaking that cannot be easily conducted without help. Even with the aid of Alcubierre warp drives, it would take two weeks to move one parsec with the amount of energy (one-tenth of Earth's annual electricity generation) accessible even to one large ship. Larger amounts of energy to create massive warp bubbles are only accessible with the construction of starbases or similarly large constructions with the ability to house thousands of massive fusion plants.

To remedy this situation, ships should only be able to move a very slow speed (say 3 pc/week, maximum) when outside the range of a starbase. When within the range of a starbase (which should range from 0-5 parsecs in all directions from the base, depending on how much the modules have been upgraded), ships should be able to move much faster, technology and appropriate starbase modules permitting. By including this new feature, realism will be added to the game and new diplomatic avenues (such as shutting off access of certain empires to use of your starbases' speed-boosting ability, or taxing the use of your starbases by foreign freighters) can be opened. Furthermore, invasion of empires will be far more difficult, since one would have to lay down and defend a network of starbases in order to move large numbers of ships at any speed.

Another aspect of the game that I did not enjoy was the scale aspect. Planets are almost as close to each other as stars are to each other. Planets should be located in smaller system maps that may be accessed by moving a spaceship onto a star and then zooming in. In addition to being more realistic, the same mechanism could be used to produce a tactical map for fights that occur in deep space (for fights in stellar systems, the system map could be the tactical map as well). Furthermore, the propulsion technology line could be split into two: one (Impulse Drive, Ion Drive, etc.) dealing with intra-system and tactical-map travel, and another (Warp Drive, HyperWarp, etc.) dealing with travel outside a stellar system.

31,664 views 33 replies
Reply #26 Top

lol. I gave the DLs 200% range. I like carnage. :grin:

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 24
How about making it so, that this game-mechanic actually has a purpose after the early game? As you said yourself, range was only an issue during the early phase of GalCiv 2. What's the point of having it then, if it is entirely useless for most of the game?

I'm pretty sure that was the designed intent, to slow down the colony rush and then gradually phase out as a concern. It can still be a problem in very sparse or very clustered maps, but for the most part it should feel less relevant as your empire gets stronger. It's not quite as blatant a check-box as the Universal Translator tech, but pretty close.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 24
How is this not already the case with GalCiv 2?

They can only miss high. Adding the ability to miss low as well certainly won't help them.

Reply #28 Top

My own intent was to make starbase-anchored travel routes a central part of the game. Overall range would be the same as it is now (albeit slightly shorter), but outside of a very small radius from starbases or planets (5 pc radius, maximum) speed would be very low due to the lack of a large device to create massive warp bubbles. The effect would be more pronounced for fleets containing only small or tiny ships, and less so for fleets with large ships, but never outside a starbase trade region should ships be able to travel more than about 5 pc/month.

The idea with this is not just to introduce immersion and realism, but to add a strategic aspect of the game that is currently not present. Two civilizations, for their mutual benefit, may opt to build a series of jointly owned and controlled starbases between their local starbase-transport networks, allowing for improved trade and military cooperation. However, once the two civilizations have built up a dependence on the trade route, a third malicious civilization may declare war solely for the purpose of breaking the chain of starbases and slowing down travel, crippling the economy of the two participating players. Alternatively, a player may locate the fleets of another player it is at war with and note that they are near the edge of a hard range established by a starbase: knowing this, they may endeavor to strike at the starbase that is allowing the ships to travel as far as it is, causing the ships to wander in deep space until they either return to the player or (if evil) possibly join pirate bands in the galaxy.

I would also like to revamp the method of influence spread, particularly through the elimination of influence starbases and in light of multi-maps if they are implemented. Influence modules on starbases (and planets themselves, for that matter) should be unusable to claim territory, but should rather affect freighters that pass through the relevant starbase range and allow them to exert influence on the destination planets. This could of course be mixed with citizen races, cultures, and citizenships, which would make the game far more interesting and add other mechanics that will not be mentioned here. Deep space shouldn't be claimable, as it is impossible to maintain control over vast swathes of empty wastes, but planets should be.

Reply #29 Top

Another aspect of the game that I did not enjoy was the scale aspect. Planets are almost as close to each other as stars are to each other.

Yes it is explained in GC2 that the starmap is a flat and spacially distorted map showing travel time rather than spacial distance between objects. The explaination given that near large masses warp drives are less effective. This means the distances between stars can be traveled more quickly than distances in proximity to stars.

Hence the map shows stars seeming very close together.

 

As to real science of warped space well we would need either much larger amounts of energy than the game suggests or exotic matter with things like negative mass properties so none of these 4x space games are very realistic in that sense nor is star trek. But it's a game so I over look this :-)

 

Reply #30 Top

Quoting econundrum1, reply 29


As to real science of warped space well we would need either much larger amounts of energy than the game suggests or exotic matter with things like negative mass properties so none of these 4x space games are very realistic in that sense nor is star trek. But it's a game so I over look this

A bit off-topic, but

Quoting econundrum1, reply 29


Another aspect of the game that I did not enjoy was the scale aspect. Planets are almost as close to each other as stars are to each other.

Yes it is explained in GC2 that the starmap is a flat and spacially distorted map showing travel time rather than spacial distance between objects. The explaination given that near large masses warp drives are less effective. This means the distances between stars can be traveled more quickly than distances in proximity to stars.

Hence the map shows stars seeming very close together.

 

As to real science of warped space well we would need either much larger amounts of energy than the game suggests or exotic matter with things like negative mass properties so none of these 4x space games are very realistic in that sense nor is star trek. But it's a game so I over look this

 

I understand this. My vision of multiple maps is to make it fairly minimalistic, as in Spore: one could scroll over a star and see the planets, together with their TerraScores (poorly done analogue of Planet Quality). However, one could only travel from star to star in that game, or within a system from planet to planet: I would preserve hexes/triangles to allow for a greater range of movement.

Here are some illustrative photographs:

Reply #31 Top

Regarding full map + system maps... no thanks.  Being able to see everything without having to jump between maps is important.  Having to zoom into system maps would add little but cost time.  Hell if we could find a way to manage planetary improvements without having to change screens I'd be all for it.  I like in endless space and civ5 where you can see what each planet/city is building from the main map without having to zoom in and check.

 

But back to the OP, the OP basically wants space roads.  Forget all the lore and realism of hyperspace or whatever, realism isn't that important.

Space roads aren't a bad idea.  You don't need to make all ships move slower to have them be useful, ship speed seems pretty good where it is.

Perhaps not tied to starbases though, but some kind of slipstream you can set up which can be controlled via diplomacy (taxes, free access, no access).  Or maybe some kind of warpgate tech.  It would be helpful for defence purposes, possibly for trading purposes, or for income (x BC per turn for access to roads) if say the guy on your left is at war with the guy on your right. 

Reply #32 Top

Quoting Wer900, reply 30
I understand this. My vision of multiple maps is to make it fairly minimalistic, as in Spore: one could scroll over a star and see the planets, together with their TerraScores (poorly done analogue of Planet Quality). However, one could only travel from star to star in that game, or within a system from planet to planet: I would preserve hexes/triangles to allow for a greater range of movement.

 

I don't think this is unworkable but it is at odds with the current way the engine maps things so not at all a negligible change to make considering they aren’t far from beta changing how maps are held and presented and then changing all the other systems that use the map is actually a fair amount of work.

Add to that they have said they want to keep the feel of a GC game and the 2D distorted scale map is part of all the other GC games and I can’t see any hope of this system being implemented as you want.

Short version I think the map will stay broadly as is.

Reply #33 Top

If they allow for multiple map objects to be created in the game, it would be fine by me. Perhaps "system maps" could become another game setting like Mega Events for those who want to play with them.