Higher tax vs higher population (TA)

Making sense of it all

If you have any rules of thumb that apply to this stuff, please share them!

Increasing the population of a planet reduces morale and reduces the effect of morale boosting structures.

Increasing the tax rate reduces morale exponentially, noticeable especially beyond 30-40% tax. It gets worse fast.

So which is better when? High pop and lower tax, low pop with higher tax, or both at "medium", avoiding the extremes of both? Where is the sweet spot? (Obvously high population with high taxation is best but that simply annihilates morale, so we have to find a balance.)

Going with higher tax and lower population planets (opposed to lower tax and higher population planets) means you get more out of captured planets that are still building up their populations, populations that haven't maxed out yet. This seems important.

On the other hand, higher populations with lower taxation gets you more income from your biggest planets. Because you avoid the worst of the morale hit that comes with high taxation, you can increase population by more % than what you would be able to increase tax by. But apparently this is only true up to a point, see:

Example:
My 16 billion pop home planet has 37% approval at 59% taxation.
The population's effect on approval is -48%.
My morale planetary improvements happen to add 36%. (They add 70 -48%).

Going from 16 to 20 billion:
This makes the approval penalty -60% instead of -48%. A loss of 12.
Morale planetary improvements now 28% instead of 36%. (They add 70 -60%). Loss of 8.
That's -20 approval compared to the 16 billion population.
Lowering tax from 59 to 49 fully compensates for this approval drop.
We've increased population by 25% and reduced taxation by ~17%.
A profit!

Going from 20 to 25 billion: now this doesn't work anymore:
Effect of pop on morale and morale planetary improvements is now -80% not -60%.
The morale planetary improvements now 14% instead of 28% (70 -80%). Loss of 14.
We lose a total of 34 approval (20 + 14).
To get those 34 back, we have to lower tax further, from 49 to roughly 29. (!!)
We've increased population by 25% again, but this time reduced taxation by ~41%.
A loss!

Of course if I wasn't running this crazy high tax (59) to start with at 16 billion (if I wanted morale to sit around say 50% instead of 37%) then going to 20 billion already might have been a net loss because at lower tax levels, lowering tax further doesn't have as much of a positive effect on morale. Meaning, tax would've had to be reduced quite a lot to keep the morale unchanged.

This is all a bit much to think about ingame.
Any rules of thumb you'd like to share?

This comes to my mind:
When you have lots of smaller planets, set a high tax to benefit from them and don't build farms on your biggest planet(s) so those don't lose too much morale. When you have mostly big planets, make sure you get them to 20 billion pop and run a lower tax?

21,240 views 8 replies
Reply #1 Top

Some data:

fMorale = fCivABilityFactor + fBaseMorale * (1 + fImprovementFactor)
+ fPlanetMoraleBonusFactor - fNegativeTreasuryFactor + fPlanetQualityBonus - fTaxModifier


pop // fBasemorale (In-game "-??% From Population" in Approval's Tool Tip)

1 b. // 99 (-1%)
5 b. // 91 (-9%)
10 b. // 77 (-23%)
15 b. // 60 (-40%) (*1.5 for -17% compared to above)
20 b. // 40 (-60%) (*1.33 for -20% compared to above)
25+ b. // 20 (-80%) (*1.25 for -20% compared to above)


Tax Rate // fTaxModifier

1% // -1
10% // -10
20% // -21
30% // -33
40% // -48 (*1.33 for -15% compared to above)
50% // -68 (*1.25 for -20% compared to above)
60% // -90 (*1.20 for -22% compared to above)
70% // -163
80% // -192
90% // -347
100% // -398

Approval penalty from population also reduces the effect of planetary improvements that boost approval, so -20% penalty from pop is worse than -20% penalty from tax.

Reply #2 Top

You are right that if 16 billion pop. need 2 morale building 32 billion on the same planet will need way higher morale buildings. Also in almost every case build Banks instead of morale buildings.

Cases:

A ) 16 bill. 5 banks 1 morale building tax = 49%

B ) 16 bill. 5 morale building tax = 69%

C ) 20 bill. 2 banks 3 morale building tax = 49% 

D ) 26 bill. 5 morale building tax = 49%

 I wont go into the math but out of all these cases A is the best.

 

What I personally believe Morale Buildings serve the only purpose of LEVELLING MORALE across EVERY PLANET.

So 8 bill. pop. planets dont need any morale building if 16 bill. has 1-2 buidlings.

 

Also if you want to go into specialization instead of getting 2-3 planets into 24 bill. pop. try getting 1 high class planet to 16 bill pop. and then nonstop Banks.

 

Higher tax also has the added problem that if you colonize or conquer a planet you will need to build morale buildings to even grow pop beyond 1 bill. pop.

 

Reply #3 Top

Thanks, Vatsal.

 

As for A vs D:

5 stock exchanges = 5 x 25% = +125%. 16 bil +125% = 36.

Therefore, for D to beat A, it would need more than 36 billion pop.

Isn't it just that simple?

 

Leveling morale across every planet: interesting...that implies building banks on the smaller planets and morale improvements on the biggest ones. But why?

 

Is it a problem in a star federation if one planet has <50% approval, when you have other planets at high approval % to compensate for it so the civ wide approval rating is still over 70%? (My civs have always been dictatorships.)

 

I posted the same thread on the Steam forums: click , some very helpful replies there too.

After which I posted my conclusion regarding the thread title "higher tax vs higher population":

 

Quoting Roenie82,

70% is the absolute lower approval limit if you don't want to risk losing the elections.

70% approval means you cannot usually run high tax. Just how badly (exponentially) approval drops with tax increases I've shown in an earlier post to this thread.

That leaves higher population as the only remaining option in "higher tax vs higher population".

Unless running a dictatorship, but because there's risk involved in running a star federation, there will be a reward in that, meaning, a star federation (with lower taxation as required to stay >70% approval) should be more profitable than a dictatorship with high taxation, assuming good game design.

Hence, higher population is the way to go, not higher taxation. Up to a point of course, as planets that are too overpopulated become too unhappy to try and keep >70%.

And that makes getting more planets the best way to increase civ wide population and as a result, income.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Roenie82, reply 3
Is it a problem in a star federation if one planet has <50% approval, when ...

  Problem with any government:  unhappy planets easily join/create breakaway races such as The Jagged Knife (which none of my planets do since I noticed that).

  I agree with Vatsal93's post;  I aim for 16bill pops (home colony or 2 x Xeno farms) unless a planet has a moral bonus tile.  Good moral buildings take too long to build.

Reply #5 Top

Star Fed. sees approval as a whole. So <50 % morale is still fine for some planets if other planets have >70 %. But keep in mind <50% planets will never grow in pop. so must be rectified immediately. 

Also Star Fed. gives a direct boost to economy of all the planets without constructing banks. Also if you choose Economists political party you get +20% boost from them. So even though your tax rate can be 10-20 % lower than expected Star Fed. is still far far better than Dictatorship.

 

Regarding planet specialization here is my general strategy

1 Manufacturing Capital

1 Economic Capital ( On higher difficulties this generally is the home planet)

1 Technology Capital

<9 planet class ALL Manufacturing planets (with maybe 1-2 labs if research bonus tile is available)

>9 to <15 Hybrid manufacturing + research

> 15 All Money + manufacturing.

 

Also you might notice that there are in fact so less Money generating planets. Because when I play I never research better than Research Centers or Advanced Factories and neither should you. There is no point Building Industrial Sectors in all planets and then keeping production slider at 50 %.

 

If you want more money conquer more planets but higher taxation is not the answer.

Reply #6 Top

Some of your values are off.

Base Approval

10b = 75% (-25%)
15b = 56% (-44%)
20b = 34% (-66%)
25b+ = 10% (-90%)

Tax Rate Morale Penalty

30% = -32%
40% = -46%
50% = -65%
60% = -83%
70% = -107%
80% = -123%
90% = -176%
100% = -199%

I have taken those numbers straight from the game. If you did too, then please make sure, that you are running the latest version (v2.04).

Quoting Roenie82, reply 3
5 stock exchanges = 5 x 25% = +125%. 16 bil +125% = 36.


Therefore, for D to beat A, it would need more than 36 billion pop.

Your conclusion is indeed correct. However, your calculation is not quite accurate. The tax income of your planets increases by the square root of the population. So, in order to gain 2.25 as much money, you need to increase the population by a factor of 5.0625 (the square root of 5.0625 is 2.25). In other words, you would need a population of 81b in order to make as much money as with a population of 16b and 5 stock markets.

Quoting Roenie82, reply 3
70% is the absolute lower approval limit if you don't want to risk losing the elections.

You only need an approval rating of 70% or higher during election week. The rest of the year, you can run your tax rate as high as you want. However, I'd try to keep the approval rating in the yellows. Otherwise, you risk loosing some planets to revolt (they form their own little empire). I had that only happen in one of my games in all the years of playing, but it is a possibility. Even so, it didn't even happen to me, but the Iconians, who were running their economy to the ground.

Quoting Zarnick, reply 4
Problem with any government:  unhappy planets easily join/create breakaway races such as The Jagged Knife (which none of my planets do since I noticed that).

Not necessarily. I lost planets with an approval rating of 90%+ to the Jagged Knife before.

Reply #7 Top

Thanks guys, for your helpful responses, will help my game. Not much to say in response to most of that, except:

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 6

Some of your values are off.

Yea thanks for correcting. I used those from the wiki @ https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Approval , the only data I could find and it's outdated for TA. I expect you got your numbers from the game files rather than looking in-game? If so, would you mind sharing where you found them? I went through the game's directory structure and did not manage to find them. I've done some modding on other games myself, would be nice to know my way around galciv a bit too, in that regard.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 6

The tax income of your planets increases by the square root of the population.

Ouch, I didn't know.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 6

You only need an approval rating of 70% or higher during election week.

I've read that before, feels like an exploit because I'd be surprised if Stardock designed it like that on purpose. You'd think people would catch on if taxes were up at 59%+ except for one week leading up to the elections, before getting raised again, every time. Wouldn't go over well in real life. Don't really want to exploit this, thanks for the hint though.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Roenie82, reply 7
I used those from the wiki @ https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Approval , the only data I could find and it's outdated for TA.

The whole wiki is outdated as far as TotA is concerned.

Quoting Roenie82, reply 7
I expect you got your numbers from the game files rather than looking in-game?

No, I've got them from in-game. The formulas to calculate those values are hardcoded in the game-files. We don't have access to them.

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