Recent Game: Got my Butt Kicked!! (Newb)

Pretty normal for your first game, just don't give up.

Everything is more lethal in the hands of human players, because they know how to maximize their units effectiveness and can intelligently target your most vital units.

You do realize Corvettes counter LRF unit like Illuminators right? If he had corvettes you should have built defense vessels.

While you're learning multiplayer, always build colony capitalship first. Just try very hard not to lose it, and if you're in a helpless situation you can try to flee to the middle of the map and rebuild closer to your allies, so you're not a total dead weight.

Goafan, vettes dont counter illums. It is actually the other way around (especially with malice support). Your best bet to counter them is to just build your own lrm and form a huge blob so that the illum beams have trouble targeting more than one ship. Or you could just build fighters.

Oh not this debate again. I was ridiculed for saying Seleuceia might be right about that when he suggested it last year, but most of the ICO players at the time disagreed. Granted Illums are far better against vettes than other LRFs, andI don't really play Sins online anymore so things might have changed, but I somewhat doubt that everyone shares this opinion.

It is a pretty common occurence for skilled players to build their own lrms to counter illums. Given that you dont play multiplayer, you might not have seen this and thus are still stuck in an outdated mindset.

In small numbers, lums are quite vulnerable to corvettes, but when the numbers are sufficient the corvettes don't counter very well...what is best to use as your counter depends on your faction and on whether the limiting factor at the time is resources or construction time....if you are Vasari and it is construction time, you are better off with kanraks...if you are TEC and it is resources, you are better off with corvettes...that's at least in perfect fleet vs. fleet scenarios....

In reality, the Vasari player is probably coupling Orkies with light support (usually corvettes, flak, or fighters) and so you aren't going to get a true fleet battle...furthermore, Advent probably aren't going to build lums to deal with Vasari anyway since the Orkies force LF spam and carriers...for TEC, you will get a true fleet battle but by the time lums roll out, the limiting factor will likely be construction time, not resources so corvettes lose their advantage...unfortunately, the relatively long build time of LRMs puts them at a disadvantage as well...basically, no early game frigate is going to do well against lums once you get to decent fleet sizes (like 20+)...

If the lums are coupled with malice, there really is no frigate counter as pretty much any ship (even HCs) will lose without heavily outnumbering the lums...I've faced a mid level prog and ~60 lums with my ~50 HCs and still lost -- the raw DPS of lums is insane and with large fleets + malice the weaker focus firing of lums is totally irrelevant for winning fleet battles...even Advent and Vasari minelayer tactics just utterly fail as the lums can instantly shoot in almost any direction (including behind)...

Your only true "counter" is fighters, and you better hope that your opponent didn't build any flak...I have actually beaten a slightly larger fleet of lums that had more tech upgrades by coupling my own lums with 3 aerias fitted with fighters....the thing is though, you have to hope your opponent didn't get flak, and if they start building flak then you are out of options...

The only way you are beating a decent prog with lum spam is with massive numerical superiority and/or some way to prevent the prog from using malice...usually TEC players have to get feed to do that, and have to have more factories since LRMs build slower per fleet supply...the only alternative is to build corvettes or LF and run your fleet, but that has its own risks...Vasari usually don't have this issue since Orkies encourage more LF spamming and use of carriers...

In short, once lum spam gets rolling you are screwed unless you have some other advantage already...it's kind of like missile barrage, you can deal with it but the best way is to never let them get it in the first place, and that's easier said than done...

You are actually better off not building any vettes if you opponent starts building illums, because by that point it is highly likely he still possesses a sizable force of disciples. Since light frigate soft counters vettes, your corvette force will be utterly crushed by that and malice. As for Vasari, don't build kanraks. They are the worst lrm in the game and if your opponent even builds a handful of vettes you are screwed. Instead, building a starbase is superior because illums are terrible at focus firing, effectively cutting their dps by half. 

TEC LRM grouped together in a tight ball will actually counter illums, because then they can't use their side beams. Its basically an imitation orky. And what is this nonsense about build time? Javelis has one of the best build time/supply cost ratios in the game in the game. 

Again, if your squish all of your ships into a tight ball then the dps of advent is cut in half. People seem to think that you should spread your ships out when facing illums but that is a BAD idea. Also, illums dont have back beams. Are we playing the same game?

Seleuceia two weeks ago- flak are shit

Seleuceia today- flak are absolutely overpowered

Conclusion- trolls gotta troll

I ran the numbers and lrm has one of the fastest build times per fleet supply in the entire TEC arsenal. You also seem to forget what you wrote two paragraphs ago, when you stated that flak can counter illums. You are completely correct on this point, because the fact that flak can fire in all directions (unlike illuminators) means that with sufficient micro, illums will take heavy losses. Add in the fact that illums do only 75% damage against flak, while flak does 100% damage, points toward the conclusion that flak is the go-to counter against illuminator spam.

Illuminator spam is also extremely unlikely in an equally skilled matchup without a feeder, due to the very high crystal and metal cost. 

If you move your lums through the fleet, it doesn't matter...the LRMs will have to turn around to retarget while the lums' sidebeams will still be shooting (they can shoot behind fairly well, the side firing arcs seem to cover most of backside)....tightening up helps but it isn't going to prevent the inevitable unless the other player doesn't micro at all...

LRM -- 25 sec / 4 supply = 6.25

Illuminator -- 29 sec / 6 supply = 4.83

Kanrak -- 28 sec / 6 supply = 4.67

TEC LRFs are at a clear disadvantage....

But wait, you did say TEC arsenal....

Cobalt -- 24 sec / 5 supply = 4.75

TEC Corvette -- 15 sec / 3 supply = 5

Garda -- 35 sec / 4 supply = 8.75

So unless by "TEC arsenal" you really mean "garda flaks", well....

Seleuceia, you just dug a hole so deep with that post its likely Stardock will fix minidumps before you climb out of it. Your "logic" is filled with nothing but buckets upon buckets of hogwash. It is amazing that you seek to insult me at every opportunity, when I have done nothing but offer the hand of friendship. Allow me to refute your nonsense point by point:

NOWHERE in your post does it mention illum's inherent weakness in focus firing... in fact, it doesn't even mention whether or not illums are viable against starbases... Since the OP clearly indicates that he is a noob, don't you think that is relevant information? Don't you think he may not realize the finer details of the game? Don't you think that being an asshat is not going to help your argument? In your rather poor attempt to embarrass me, all you have done is embarrass yourself, and lose whatever little credibility that you had left...

This part makes me wonder if you ever played TEC...

You do realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the lums to move through the lrm fleet if they are packed close together, right? And I don't mean close together as in fleet formation close, I mean 100 ships mashed together in the size of a cobalt type of close. The illums cannot penetrate a ship ball of that depth, meaning only one of their beams can fire at a time, just like one illum can only fire one beam at a time against one particular ship. Numerous experiments conducted with all both LRMS and Kanraks confirm this. I will be happy to test this with you, but given your previous track record (dodging my requests for flak vs LF, cobalt vs orky, confused sperm bug) I doubt you will accept my offer...

Mock me all you want, but what you have failed to consider is the illuminator's abnormally high crystal cost... this makes it so that a frontline advent player can never produce illums continuously for even a short period of time (without an eco)... Barring a miraculous triple ice planet start, the correct values for the illuminator should be 41 sec/6 supply, which gives us a ratio of 6.8333333... considerably worse than the LRM ratio of 6.25...

And in typical Seleuceia fashion, he just inserted an irreleveant piece of information into our little debate... The kanrak is a crap ship, nobody builds it... this is like calculating the build time/supply ratios of scout ships and colony frigates... completely extraneous data that only muddles and confuses the true topic at hand...

Also, I find it amusing you only chose to refute half of my post... I guess when I exposed your little trolling with the viability of flak frigates, it was too hard to worm your way out of that one, right?

Frankly, Seleuceia's trolling is not the issue I have with him... In fact, I find it highly amusing how easily he deceives many regulars on these forums... What bothers me is his consistent lack of respect towards people who disagree with him... This would not be a problem in and of itself, as many people get defensive about their opinions, but Sel in particular takes it way too far... In truth, his mockery and disdain toward others should not be tolerated...

How many heads does a hydra have?

Pineapple?

Oh come on man, its ok for the 1st game

the issue with going illums is that they are expensive to research and build, and u really need to consider the situation before doing this

I personally prefer 2 starting harmony temples in agro spot as advent rather than hostility, as it gives u culture and ability to colo 3 new planet types. For those who go hostility i advice getting lums when they reach the third supply point (so its the third lab)

As far as lums +malice are concerned, have u ever heard about dunov battlecruiser ah?

P.s. there are no weakest or strongest races. AR might seem better than AL in midgame, but they are inferior to AL late game and they dont have mine control to counter vasari early game

Those who can't argue, dodge...

@hummer- when was the last time you've seen a dunov outside of late game mega fleets? A level 1-2 cannot even put a dent in the malice of a mid game prog.

What you really need sin is some alternate accounts made years ago...that would make you uber pro troll...like, Olympic level troll...

Like you and Ryat?

Also, I am not trolling. The only time i ever trolled was with the never quit post that got nuked.

Im still waiting for that rebuttal Seleuceia.

I'm not feeding the troll...

How convenient for you to label me a troll after I exposed your lies...

I wish these posts had anything to do with my original post.

Sorry knownalien, troll fighting is hard work and there is a high chance of collateral damage.

You are not alone, some people often derail most recent posts with their nonsense nowadays..

@Alien, if u manage to find a thread where comments have any correspondence with the topic i will be your game master for a year xD

Damn, this thread was entirely on topic until Seleuceia decided to show up...

adding to the topic, it is the newb's role to get his butt kicked and shot at