I was thinking the same thing about making transports/colony ships/Freighters should all be limited to starports on planets. This would mean that the starport still has a need after the Starbase is built. 

I HAVE FOUND THE BETTER IDEA!!!

Make two queues and two civil and military production wouldn't work any more, it would mean restructuring the entire system. And one space shipyard linked to planets (that for some reason, are now incapable of making larger ships,) doesn't even make since as a solution for two queues.

So Max,  earlier I forgot the "lol" after I said are you out of your mind. To clarify, my problem was that with two queues and good colony production I could focus my military production and cut the time nearly in half for ships, then switch focus focus on social improvement and save time and turns. Now I cant do that. Ship building and improvements were two separate strategies and now they are one. Only being able to build (medium hulls for example) on starbases isn't any better. 

So I looked at galciv3 again and galciv2s UI, and again and again and also the game files, until I understood.

Change half, and have both!

In the game files there are five strategic resources that are new, and I imagine some will unlock late game weapons, hulls, and Starbases and thats what the Dev's were planning to do. To make starbases the primary source of ship building would require allot of re-coding. To make two queues again would also require remaking the system.

THE SOLUTION:

So... if the text was bigger to see, and the star port on the colony screen was separate from the improvement screen, and factories gave a set value of "star ship production" that would be used only for ship building, that would be like having two queues. we could make ships and improvments at the same time, and there could be factories that gave more or less social or military production. how about it?

If I could also build some ships in starbases that would be great, or even a super weapon or mega ship. But I don't want to have that as the only OPTION, since I love putting ship building roles for planets. Like alot of people who play.

I miss the old way and if going back is doable, please do SD. Also, nothing but love and Peace to you EvilMaxWar. lol.

DARCA

I forgot to add the a important part. ex: Basic Factory gives 10% production and 10 units so ship production. So this way the system doesn't have to be completely redone.

DARCA

DARCA, I do not mean to be rude but you make no sense. I just read your post twice and still cannot understand what your are trying to tell.

I just think that having dual queue without the ability to control the level of military production defeats the purpose of dual queue.

The way I see it, the biggest advantage of dual Queue is the flexibility it gives you to switch back and forth between social and military type of production. With in between levels for when you are not sure just how much you should focus. The system in GalCiv II was wonderful to balance both needs on the fly, it was more flexible than any other system I have seen In a 4X game.   Having the production sent to Shipyard depend on a fixed ratio makes it the opposite. It makes it rigid. 

If someone can find a way to make it flexible without using a slider, fine, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with that. I tried to think about alternatives but so far have not found anything anywhere as simple and effective as a good ol' slider.

It seems the main gripe about having a slider is that, well, it's a slider. It's like with GalCiv III came a new trend that sliders are not cool. We now have the Unified production wheel and it is supposed to be the thing that controls everything!  Hurray! No more need for sliders ever again!! 

Well, the wheel is limited to 3 settings.  In GalCiv 2 the Economy screen had 6 sliders. So 6 settings.

-Taxes

-Spending ratio

-Military

-social

-Research

-Espionnage

What happens if we ever want to add a new feature to the game and it requires a global adjustable control?  We make a new wheel?  The wheel is nice because it allows great control over 3 interrelated settings. In other words, I think the wheel was specially made to counter these 3 guys here. And I think it does a great job at it.

But other settings that are not placed in a interrelation context do not benefit from the wheel design. So.. well, personally my favourite option so far for those is still  a slider. Why could the wheel and sliders not coexist ?

Just imagine if we remade GalCiv 2 today, we could use the wheel along the sliders and have it look like that, wouldn't it be great? 

What didn't you understand. Read it again, I think you will be surprised. (I edited the post. I write in segments, and sometimes ideas get crossed.)

I like your idea. to put the sliders back in the game. The current wheel is to loose to use, the sliders were bigger and more precise. IMO

DARCA

A bit better but your text still barely make any sense to me. I will try to go through it and send you a PM of the result, I see no reason to post that in the thread.

I have to say I'm with EvilMaxWar here. He spelled it out well for how I'm feeling about the sliders being gone. At first I thought it was just the initial knee jerk reaction to something new being done to something I was used to and comfortable with but the more I've dabbled with it the more I feel the limitation that EvilMaxWar has pointed out. I don't think sliders are bad at all.

I miss duel cue very very much and hope that the devs reconsider going back to it.

Ok. Now the Max has edjamicated me a bit. I'll try again.

Here is my idea, I tried thinking of a neutral  solution since little is known about the programming.

What if there could be two queues, without changing anything major*. Each factory would have two types of production values in its code. One for making planetary improvements and one for building ships in the ship queue. Ships would require that production to be built.

THE RESULT:

1. Different factories could be made that give more or less of each production for specialization.

2. Two queues could be made without making sliders, which the devs don't seem to like and may or may not change it back. (but I hope they do.)

3. Ship building stays on colonies. And we don't have to comprise by making starbases the second queue.

If I can modd the Starbase thing I wouldn't care. But to much is uncertain right now for me not to care.

I think the production diamond sounds good if they bring back the two types of production and keep the a wheel for the visuals. IMHO.

DARCA

Production Diamond?  If you are thinking about using the production wheel idea and applying 4 settings to it instead of 3? Im sorry but it does not seem to be possible. I tried figuring how It could be done but I see no way to make it possible. That design seems to be genuinely hard limited to 3 settings.

All that matters is if its effective and wanted. That what SD should do. Cough cough...Two queues.

DARCA.

I propose a solution to marry the concept of the dual and single que. You can operate a dual que a la GalCiv2 but it comes with a production setback--say you can only use 90% of your production, split across both your ques. This allows you to build both ships and planetary improvements are once, but adds a cost to the multitasking.

This also opens up a possibility of having even more ques, but for each ques receiving an additional production penalty. This possibility I am not sure I recommend, but am putting it out there.

This isn't directed at you, I have said this for a while.

NO MORE @#$% PENALTIES AS SOLUTIONS!!!!! Less isn't more.

DARCA.

For once I agree with DARCA, Im not a fan of the penalties in this case :p

And you say nothing about how the production allocated to each queue would be determined. To me that is the central question if there is to be an eventual implementation of dual Queue in GalCiv III.

So far the only solutions have either been My proposition of a new slider, or fixed ratios that are determined by your current level of technology and planet infrastructure.

I like dual queues, but I admit, the single queue is growing a bit on me.

Maybe have a dual queue with a slider that allocates production on a percentage basis to one or the other (so 100 percent planet, 100 percent space, or a mix)

Not sure if this should be per planet, or per player.

For me, at the moment, the question of single or dual queues is the most important, so I'll add a few more pennies to the discussion . . .

FIRST -- if the new game programed mechanic means dual queues CANNOT be planet-side, then my strategy will likely always involve making one or more smaller planets exclusive factory worlds to produce capital ships for my empire.  No doubt these will be resource draining worlds subsidized by the empire for the sake of the ships they produce for the empire and their sister worlds.  Their individual planet wheel will always be set to total manufacturing, regardless of how the empire wheel will be set -- my "work around" the single queue condition.

NOW THEN -- based on this strategy, I will again support the idea of a "space-based capital ship construction platform," my version of EvilMaxWar's ship builder star base.  I like the sci-fi "quasi-realism" that avoids issues like escaping a planet's atmosphere and gravity, etc.

1.  This star base -- as I suggested in an earlier reply -- would be like the GC2 Terror Star, requiring a number of techs and specialized modules to be constructed before it could function as a ship building platform.  Regular constructor modules could add weapons and defenses and fleet capacity like other star bases.  In GC2, star bases are subsidized by the empire, so that would likely happen here.

2.  By the time this base could begin building capital ships, it would achieve the status of an "artificial planet."  Thus, it would have its own production wheel as any regular planet which could be set as if it was a planet.

3.  As I said about the single queue mechanic with small planets only producing ships, these ship builder star bases would be subsidized by their empire.  Thus, there is no need to have an extra production slider on the empire-wide resource allocation wheel.  Remember, new colonies need to be subsidized until they produce economically for the empire, and there are no management issues there.  These artificial planets will simply be permanently subsidized.  They will grow in population as other colonies grow; they will receive resources from the entire empire; etc.

Conclusion:

1.  Planets keep one queue, and build whatever the leader wants, social projects or ships.

2.  Artificial planets (ship builder star bases) will also have only one queue -- to build capital ships.

3.  Still one empire-wide wheel to control how resources are directed, and still individual wheels for planets and these artificial planets, so no need for special sliders.

4.  In times of war, leaders can quick-build more artificial planets to produce more war ships more quickly.

Again, others may have better ideas, but this is what fermented in my brain.

My initial thoughts, before the alpha, were that I did want the dual queue.  But now that I've seen the way it works in the alpha, as another poster said, it's growing on me.  I can get used to it, and it presents new challenges, which I welcome.

I am tending to agree with you although I am also thinking with some of Max's and One-Eye's suggestions we could have the best of both worlds, a single queue for much of the early-mid game with a dual-queue in the mid-late game depending on what platform (e.g. terror-star concept) was chosen to build an advanced orbital shipyard. 

My original post earlier on was around simply having an orbital shipyard (aka Star Trek or Starship Troopers) that might use a starbase in a neighbouring hex as a platform for all military starcraft (barring colony ships and constructors - not sure about troop transports - probably lumped in with military), as this fits with my concept of building in zero-gravity as others have already highlighted. Perhaps the aesthetic of an orbital shipyard could be combined with the GCIII equivalent of the Hyperion Shipyard project (for example) but available for anybody pursuing a military/conquest strategy irregardless of single or dual build queues.

Overall I am looking forward to the next alpha iteration (with more bells and whistles) to see if the single queue grows on me and how it affects play in a more expanded GCIII environment... are we there yet... are we there yet... are we there yet?! 

I'm intrigued by such an option, and am patiently waiting for what Stardock has plans for.

I know I can "Get Used" to single queue.  After all I played and enjoyed Civ IV a ton and it had only 1 queue per city.  So I am already used to it in fact. I know how to play a 4x with a single queue. 

That is why I have been pushing the dual queue question forward, I have experimented both and feel that dual queue ( a la GalCiv ) does bring increased flexibility compared to the single queue in other 4x games.  This flexibility results in less hassle and less micromanagement when you need to switch your economy to military mode. Or back to Peace time mode ( or yellow alert - in between - mode )

 I think it plays a role in why I like GalCiv so much, it is a game I always associated with smooth gameplay. I sure believe that dual queue, with the obligatory GlobaI control ( slider ) makes the economic management smoother. 

I never liked the "single queue", in 4X, it always was an obviously simplified game mechanic for me. 

In that light "dual queue" was a nice change - but in the end not muhc of a good one. It added some awkward complexity in the UI. 

----

As for semi-dual queues, I could imagine that starbases get a "shipyard" module, and can "tax" the planets in its area of influence a certain amount of their production.  Forward starbases could be supplied by constructors. (The latter would favor spamming constructors like crazy, so maybe at a 50% penalty, and you still have to run a safe suppy line). 

----

Generally, In 4X I'd love to have as many buildings run in parallel as I want. Buildings would require different ressources (like labor, money, material) produced by the cities, With different ratios (one might need significantly more labor, one significantly more stone), you have the choice between having one building early vs. completing both buildings sooner. 

But that would certainly heavily shift the focus of GalCiv. A simple mechanism like single/semi-dual queue would work well here. 

Ill ask again. What decides how much it can tax?   Ill say it bluntly, I think that if this tax is not a user modulable setting ( a slider or something), then it's not worth it. The dual queue ( or semi dual queue ) stops being a useful feature and becomes a gimmick.

Why have the past few post asked for two queues, and all have a different way of bringing back the original idea? Maybe the need to control is coming into play? We are human after all, and this is a opportunity to make others see what you want, and like play it. Just know Implementation DOESN'T have to be fancy, just effective.

When two parties disagree. The issue in question, must be forgotten and a alternative should be given.

For one to to chase a vision without hearing the outcry behind, will often be hit by falling rocks.

Some of the best ideas, come from many different persons.

To make Sovereign decisions, one must consider everything, be attached to nothing, have no regrets, and learn from mistakes.

I hope that helps someone think clearer.

DARCA.

All I can say is that

- economy system is overly simplified, as some1 said, we used to have six sliders and now we have ONLY THREE (prod. wheel)

- I do not mind single queue that much, but I severely miss taxes and approval system

- separate space-based starports would be nice solution (to get 2nd queue)

- while I loved moving sliders, I feel very reserved to the production wheel...and I think that sliders were also more understandable for beginners

P.S.: I have only put several hours into alpha, so these are more of a working conclusions.

P.P.S.: LIke the other changes in the game, though.

On a side note. I want to see improvements give bonuses to ship building. I don't really know what the military point thing does in the game, but I want to see factory improvements that give bonuses for that.

remember my initial idea about different types of production that I wrote three time before it was readable. Does anyone think that is a good fallback? Just wondering.

DARCA