Yeah, all I remember is that it used to work that way when I first read about that ability in original Sins, I guess they changed it somewhere down the line.

Ok, I admit my understanding of Advent mechanics has just been revised somewhat. The SR+SP doesn't look as stronk as it used to. However, I still think it's better than you claim.

I will (try) not to produce another wall of text to justify everything because we've drifted as far away from the subject as we could, talking about Advent anti-aoe capability as if the thread was not about a heavily lacking vasari cap ship.

I will just comment one last thing about SR, because I just can't walk past that.

In my opinion, regardless of all drawbacks of SR, it is a major advantage that it can start healing earlier that hull repair effects. By the time RC starts healing, your ship is below 100% hull with 0% shields - it is weaker and can take a smaller damage spike before dying. The same ship after taking the same amount of damage could still have had 100% hull and 50% shields if SR was being used, because its shields were being restored ever since it started taking damage. It has more hit points left after the same amount of damage taken, so it can still take more damage before dying.

In this case, SR is moot significant if there is a question of survival.

Finally, remember what we're talking about. It's Advent. Is SR their ONLY method of preventing multi-target damage from wrecking havoc in an Advent's frigate/cruiser fleet? Hell no. Is RC the ONLY method of preventing multi-target damage from wrecking havoc in a Vasari frigate/cruiser fleet? Pretty much. Both races have other tools that can reduce damage taken or prevent it from being dealt to you, but if you start arguing about who has more and better - Advent will win, hands down, end of story.

With this kept in mind, SR is fine as it is and RC is still the most fucking important tool the vasari have to ensure their survival in major battles.

And none of this makes Rankulas look any less shit .

...I'll play your game, you rogue.

DISCLAIMER: The following list is primarily just me being pedantic; it is not designed to start a kerfuffle or flame war, nor is it designed as a serious argument. I should note that I don't have a particular favorite on this list -- I play both Vasari Rebels AND Advent Loyalists, and I enjoy both. Vasari just feels intuitive to me; by comparison, I happen to think Advent have dominant synergy between capital ships, but I also think their economy is WAY too slow and their tech WAY too late to compensate for this.

So: forthwith the list!

But first, a wild legend appears!

• Heal: Restores hull or shields or both
• Damage Mitigation: Makes a target more resistant to damage (by improving its armor, shield mitigation, etc.) or keeping the target out of harm's way
• Crowd Control: Reduces combat effectiveness of enemy forces:
• Reduces mobility
• Reduces weapon effectiveness
• Restricts ability use
• Prevents the enemy player from controlling their forces
• Force Multiplier: Increases the effectiveness of friendly forces:
• Increases mobility
• Increases weapon effectiveness
• Facilitates ability usage
• Maintains player control of forces

Note that some abilities double-dip by performing multiple functions. These I count more than once, because they can be used for more than one thing.

Also: passives, self-buffs and self-heals still count!

Though I have excluded Loyalist- or Rebel- specific global passives from the lists proper, I have included Titans in the list because Titans do not tend to overlap in combat role, whereas some global passives do. Example: the Coronata is primarily single-target DPS and AoE mitigation; the Eradica is mainly AoE DPS and passive mitigation (self); the two do not have significant overlap in battlefield role.

Advent Heals (Including Titans; Repair Bays excluded)

1. Perseverence (Domina Subjugator): Single target; heals hulls over time (prevents crowd control?)
2. Purification (Eradica Titan): Single target (self); kills a friendly ship in exchange for hull, shields, and antimatter
3. Shield Restore (Progenitor Mothership): Multiple targets; shields only

Advent Damage Mitigation (Including Titans; excluding generic armor and shield research; defensive structures excluded)

1. Culture (Global): Increases shield mitigation in culture
2. Energy-Absorptive Armor (Radiance Battleship): Single-target (self); passive; boosts armor and antimatter (if you ask me, this needs to boost damage output and shield mitigation, but that's another thread)
3. Shield Projection (Iconus Guardian): Multiple targets; redirects 30% of incoming damage from targets to Iconus Guardian
4. Unyielding Will (Eradica Titan): Single target (self); passive; Boosts Titan's damage and damage reduction as it takes hull damage

Advent Crowd Control (Including Titans)

1. Animosity (Radiance Battleship): Multiple targets; taunt
2. Detonate Antimatter (Radiance Battleship): Single target; disables abilities and removes antimatter
3. Domination (Rapture Battlecruiser): Permanently converts target frigate to your side
4. Lethargy (Discord Battlecruiser): Single target; reduces weapon and ability cooldowns
5. Psionic Scream (Discord Battleship): Multiple targets; disables abilities and does damage
   
6. Repulsion (Iconus Guardian): Multiple targets; knocks ships around
7. Reverie (Revelation Battlecruiser): Single target; Locks down target
8. Subjugation (Coronata Titan): Single target (self); multiple targets; increases weapon damage output; targets may be converted to your side
9. Suppression (Domina Subjugator): Single target; Locks down target frigate (disables weapons and engines?)
10. Suppression Aura (Coronata Titan): Multiple targets; passive; reduces damage output and movement speed
11. Steal Antimatter (Disciple): Single-target; removes antimatter from frigates
12. Vertigo (Rapture Battlecruiser): Multiple targets; reduces weapon accuracy and rate of fire

Also:

• Coward's Submission (Loyalists, global): Enemy ships leaving friendly wells may be converted to your side

Advent Force Multipliers (Including Titans; excluding generic weapon research; defensive structures excluded)

1. Adept Drone Anima (Halcyon Carrier): Single target (self); passive; boosts number of squadrons
2. Amplify Energy Aura (Halcyon Carrier): Multiple targets; passive; boosts energy weapon RoF for nearby friendly units
3. Anima Tempest (Halcyon Carrier): Multiple targets (strike craft only); boosts strike craft numbers and performance
4. Concentration Aura (Rapture Battlecruiser): Multiple targets; passive; boosts damage of strike craft belonging to nearby hosts
5. Energy-Absorptive Armor (Radiance Battleship): Single-target (self); boosts armor and antimatter (if you ask me, this needs to boost damage output and shield mitigation, but that's another thread)
6. Fracture (Discord Battleship): Multiple targets; reduces armor of target ships; boosts Psionic Scream damage
7. Guidance (Revelation Battlecruiser): Reduces ability cooldowns (this ability REALLY needs to reduce ability costs, as well, but that's another thread)
8. Perseverence (Domina Subjugator): Single target; heals hulls over time (prevents crowd control?)
9. Subjugation (Coronata Titan): Single target (self); multiple targets; decreases weapon damage output; targets may be converted to your side
10. Strength of the Fallen (Eradica Titan): Single target (self); boosts damage output as friendly ships die
11. Transfer Antimatter (Disciple): Single target; provides antimatter
12. Unyielding Will (Eradica Titan): Single target (self); passive; Boosts Titan's damage and damage reduction as it takes hull damage

Also:

• Rebel research that respawns friendly ships
• Rebel research that temporarily respawns enemy ships as allies
• Fury of the Unity (Advent Loyalists, Global): Boosts damage by 20% in culture range

Advent Area-of-Effect Abilities (Including Titans)

1. Chastic Burst (Eradica Titan)
2. Cleansing Brilliance (Radiance Battleship)
3. Illuminator (basic attack)
4. Malice (Progenitor Mothership)
5. Psionic Scream (Discord Battlecruiser)
6. Revenge From the Beyond (Discord Battlecruiser); technically single target, but the effect is random and sporadic, occurring whenever a frigate dies, so it almost feels like a random chain lightning; ergo, AoE
7. Ruthlessness (Destra Crusader); note that it is countered by passive regeneration
8. Vengeance (Rapture Battlecruiser)
9. Wail of the Sacrificed (Rebel, Global)

Whew! Did I miss anything?

Now! On to the Vasari list!

Vasari Heals (Including Titans, excluding repair bays)

1. Nano Leech (Kultorask): Single-target (self); multiple targets (enemy); restores hull and antimatter based on number of enemies drained
2. Nano Remit (Kultorask): Multiple targets; heals friendly hulls and antimatter for a small amount instantly
3. Power Surge (Kortul Devastaror): Single-target (self): Restores shields and increases rate-of-fire
4. Reactive Nanite Armor (Serevun Overseer): Single-target; heals target hull instantly and grants bonus armor (can overcharge health?)
5. Repair Cloud (Skirantra Carrier): Multiple targets; heals all hulls over time
6. Reintegration (Ravastra Skirmisher; Skarovas Enforcer): Single-target (self); disables engines and weapons to heal hull over time
7. Support Swarm Heal (Rankulas): Single-target; heals target hull instantly and grants bonus armor

Also:

• Loyalist research (global): increase in hull regeneration rate

Vasari Damage Mitigation (including Titans, generic armor and shield research excluded)

1. Desperation (Vorastra Titan): Single-target (self); passive-stacking; increases rate of fire, provides area-of-effect damage, and passively reduces damage
2. Micro-Phasing Aura (Skirantra Carrier): Multiple targets (strike craft only); passive; OCCASIONALLY allows strike craft to dodge attacks
3. Phase-Out Hull (Antorak Marauder): Single-target; locks down target and renders it invulnerable, preventing it from being targeted
4. Phase Stabilizer Nodes (structure, Vorastra Titan, Antorak Marauder): Significantly increases Vasari fleet strategic mobility and reinforcement rate; decouples manufacturing from front lines, preventing them from being targeted
   
5. Reactive Nanite Armor (Serevun Overseer): Single-target; heals target instantly and grants bonus armor (can overcharge health?)
6. Support Swarm Heal (Rankulas): Single-target; heals target instantly and grants bonus armor

Also:

• Rebel Research (global): increases armor and shields

Vasari Crowd Control (including Titans; all three defensive structures excluded)

1. Disruptive Strikes (Kortul Devastator): Multiple targets (passive); weapon attacks remove antimatter and reduce cooldowns
2. Distortion Field (Stilakus Subverter): Multiple targets; locks down target
3. Gravity Pulse (Kultorask Titan): Multiple targets; either locks down targets or slows their movement and rate-of-fire
4. Gravity Warhead (Jarrasul Evacuator): Multiple targets; slows targets and prevents phase jumps
5. Inertial Field (Skarovas Enforcer): Multiple targets; Slows target frigate movement
6. Interference (Ravastra Skirmisher): Single-target; increases frigate ability antimatter costs and cooldowns
7. Jam Weapons (Kortul Devastator): Multiple targets (strike craft only); prevents strike craft from firing
8. Jump Degredation (Serevun Overseer): Single-target; slows phase jump speed fpr unit jumpin into the system
9. Nano Leech (Kultorask): Single-target (self); multiple targets (enemy); restores hull and antimatter based on number of enemies drained
10. Phase-Out Hull (Antorak Marauder): Single-target; locks down target and renders it invulnerable, preventing it from being targeted

Vasari Force Multipliers (including Titans; generic weapon research excluded)

1. Combat Swarm (Rankulas Battleship): spawns a temporary light frigate
2. Culture (global): bonus damage while in culture
3. Distort Gravity (Antorak Marauder): multiple targets; boosts fleet speed, acceleration, turn rate, and phase jump rate; protects against phase jump inhibitors (never leave home without it!)
4. Nano Leech (Kultorask): Single-target (self); multiple targets (enemy); restores hull and antimatter based on number of enemies drained
5. Nano Remit (Kultorask): Multiple targets; heals friendly hulls and antimatter for a small amount instantly
6. Phase Stabilizer Nodes (structure, Vorastra Titan, Antorak Marauder): Significantly increases Vasari fleet strategic mobility and reinforcement rate; decouples manufacturing from front lines, preventing them from being targeted
7. Power Surge (Kortul Devastator): Single-target (self): Restores shields and increases rate-of-fire
8. Replicate Forces (Skirantra Carrier): Single-target; temporarily produces functioning copies of target frigate
9. Scramble Bombers (Skirantra Carrier): Single-target (self); produces extra bomber squadrons on-demand
10. Shield Disruption (Stilakus Subverter): Single-target; reduces shield mitigation by 8% and increases phase missile penetration rate by 25%
11. Volatile Nanites (Kortul Devastator): Multiple targets; increases damage received by targets; causes splash damage when target explodes

Also:

• Loyalist research (global): plasma wave and pulse damage
• One for All (Rebels, Global): Provides a damage buff when allies are in the system
• Phasic Strike (Rebels, Global): Provides a temporary damage buff upon phase jumping into the system
• Rebel research (global): phase missile damage
• Solitary Path (Loyalists, Global): damage boost?

Vasari Area-of-Effect Abilities (including Titans)

1. Desperation (Vorastra Titan)
2. Dissever (Kultorask)
3. Nano Leech (Kultorask)
4. Phase Missile Swarm (Vulkoras Desolator) -- LOL
5. The Maw (Vorastra Titan)
6. Volatile Nanites (Kortul Devastator)

That should do it.

...in case you're wondering, this took two hours to write. >.<

Comments?

Vasari have no way to regenerate shields though...that is significant, if nothing else because once you hit 100% hull, no regeneration is going to make you better prepared for the next battle...not uncommon for Vasari titans to run around with few to no shields for significant portions of the game since Vasari can only repair the hull...

I think you also have neglected Desperation in your AoE list...you can play semantics all day, but that ability is better than most AoEs at dealing with large amounts of ships...the only real thing Vasari lack is an AoE that counters corvettes, they aren't at all lacking in AoEs to deal with other things...

Interesting. Mega offtopic, but still interesting. Since I'm at work right now, I can't plow through the list at this time, probably tomorrow.
Or maybe you would care to do what I intend?

Basically, your table is not classified in a matter meaningful to the topic. Poweful and reliable combat AOE effects, which is what I had in mind the whole time, are mixed with some that are completely unrelated to combat, extremely situational or single targeted.

Look at the Vasari force multipliers list, for instance. We have

> Volatile Nanites - hands down one of my favorite abilities of the Vasari. Sooooo fucking powerful. Lets you ravage frigate fleets or blow up starbases and caps. 60 seconds of 30% damage amplification on EVERYTHING in a large AOE. Useable at will on a ship you are bound to have. Marvelous ability. As Angry Joe would tag it, it's a "10 out of 10 ability with a Bad Ass seal of approval".

> Disrupt shields - can't ignore this one in a long game and live to talk about it. Wonderful ability, absolutely demolishes caps and starbases. Must have. Single target.

At the same time, the same list holds things like:

> One for all - so if you're in a 1v1, this is useless. Even if you're in a team game, it's up to your allies to make sure you have the buff, not you, unless you are helping them. Don't get me wrong, it is a strong ability, but it's super-situational and unreliable unless you're dictating when and where you're fighting, which is not always the case.

> Combat swarm - really? This piece of shit in the same bag as VN? I mean, it theoretically should belong here considering the classes you defined, it just isn't comparable AT ALL.

> Phasic Strike - Are you going to be jumping in and out of the gravwell during the battle to keep this bonus up? I don't think so. Situational, unreliable.

> Solitary path - No comment

> Distort Gravity - wonderful for moving around quickly and phase jumping when you normally could not; zero influence on actual combat unless you wanna do matrix-style dodges against chastic bursts.

In addition:

> some effects are exclusive (good luck using Solitary Path and Phasic Strike in one game...)

> some effects are mentioned multiple times (Phase Stabilizer nodes, Volatile nanites and Nano leech are all mentioned twice, for example); I'm not saying that those abilities do not belong to each of the classes, but...

Considering the above, any claims based on the number of abilities/effects mentioned are worthless.

In order to make the list useful, it needs to be properly classified. Every ability needs to be tagged with
- AOE/Target capped/Single target
- Damaging/Healing/Buffing/Debuffing (Nano leech may cause problems here cause it does all, lol)
- General/Rebel/Loyalist
- Always available / situational (e.g. Volatile nanites is always available, providing you have the cap at lvl 6; Solitary path is a big IF, and whether you can use it or not is pretty much out of your hands most of the time)
- PERHAPS: General availability (e.g. Disrupt Shields, Subverter's ability, is available at will at any time since it's a basic ship with no special requirements, so if you want it just build 6 labs, research it, build it and use it; then we have ultimate abilities on caps that are standard issue, like Volatile Nanites on Kortul, which you are bound to get sooner or later; lastly, some abilities require you to have a specific level 6 capital ship that is generally far down on your priority list for a thousand possible reasons, for instance Marauder's phase stabilizers - in a chillout game vs AI I might get the marauder early, but if I faced a serious foe, Skirantras, Kortuls, Eggs and Titan will take precedence in nearly every situation)
- ... other I'm yet to think of when I'm out of work

Once that is done, we can start analyzing the list.

PS. Where the hell is cleansing brilliance? ?

PPS. Really good job on the list though! It can't be used to count stuff sensibly, but it does mention almost everything there is. I believe I will visit your post long after this discussion is over for other purposes.

@n3rull:

I'm aware that, of the abilities I listed, not all of them counter AoE effects. I was trying to cast a wide net and demonstrate that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. For example: technically, Guidance counters AoE if it allows the Progenitor Mothership to cast Shield Restore more often! I wouldn't recommend it, but as a force multiplier, it helps the Advent cope with AoE if used in this way.

Ultimately, there are only four ways to counter AoE damage:

1. Disabling or slowing area-of-effect abilities (which are available primarily from capital ships)
2. Removing antimatter from units with area-of-effect abilities (which are available primarily from capital ships)
3. Area-of-effect healing
4. Improving damage mitigation or overall unit health (area-of-effect damage tends to be low overall, but everywhere, which makes it overwhelming)

Selecting from the list I provided, Advent have the following abilities which meet the above criteria:

• Shield Restore (Progenitor Mothership): Multiple targets; shields only
• Culture (Global): Increases shield mitigation in culture
• Shield Projection (Iconus Guardian): Multiple targets; redirects 30% of incoming damage from targets to Iconus Guardian
• Detonate Antimatter (Radiance Battleship): Single target; disables abilities and removes antimatter
• Lethargy (Discord Battlecruiser): Single target; reduces weapon and ability cooldowns
• Psionic Scream (Discord Battleship): Multiple targets; disables abilities and does damage
• Reverie (Revelation Battlecruiser): Single target; Locks down target

Likewise, the Vasari have the following abilities that meet the above criteria:

• Loyalist and Rebel research that increases hull/shield strength or regeneration
• Nano Remit (Kultorask): Multiple targets; heals friendly hulls and antimatter for a small amount instantly
• Repair Cloud (Skirantra Carrier): Multiple targets; heals all hulls over time
• Phase-Out Hull (Antorak Marauder): Single-target; locks down target and renders it invulnerable, preventing it from being targeted
• Disruptive Strikes (Kortul Devastator): Multiple targets (passive); weapon attacks remove antimatter and reduce cooldowns

So, the Vasari do, in fact, have slightly less stuff to counter AoE damage. But, once again: Vasari tend to come out on top. This suggests to me that it isn't all about AoE -- the whole is, once again, more than the sum of its parts.

On the subject of the list itself:

• I will make changes to the list whereby Rebel/Loyalist bonuses are added as footnotes rather than list items. You're right: if you can't get them both in the same game, they shouldn't count as list items.
• I didn't include Cleansing Brilliance because... I've never used it, so I don't know how it works. I avoid the Radiance like the plague because I don't like a capital ship that is capable of doing nothing more than locking down a single target at a time; I tend to favor more versatile capital ships.
• Sorry, I forgot to add Desperation under Vasari AoE; will-do

It sounds to me like this list needs to be in a Google spreadsheet. Fields I envision:

• Ability name
• Description
• Owner (multiple values): Advent (Rebel or Loyalist)
• Type: Capital Ship, Frigate, or Global
• Usage (multiple values): Active, Passive, Stacking
• Target (multiple values): Single; Multiple; Self
• Effect (multiple values): Force Multiplier, Heal, Damage Mitigation, Crowd Control

Any volunteers to create the Google spreadsheet?

Thank you for the karma!

You never used radiance?

You realize that doesn't make you too credible as an Advent player? ;p And it also explains why you claim to pick marauder so often.

Truth is: you will not win any reasonable amount of multiplayer games as Advent without regularly picking the Radiance and you will not win any reasonable amount of multiplayer games as Vasari without regularly NOT picking the Marauder in favor of other, better caps.

In the context of our current discussion and considering your recent confession:

> Cleansing Brilliance is a super strong "tube shaped" AOE damager. When coupled with Malice it's a well-known fleet wiper.

> Animosity + perseverance + energy absorbtive armor = detonate antimatter spam = strong anti-cap/titan/sb CC potential

> Animosity + perseverance + energy absorbtive armor = a lot of damage taken off your weaker ships and transferred to your arguably toughest ship in the fleet = huge damage mitigation potential

> Animosity + Vengeance = DEAR ENEMY FLEET, PLEASE KICK YOUR OWN ASSES... THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION

Now, the reason animosity is a factor in our Anti-AOE discussion is this: AOE effects rarely kill you outright. There are some such effects of course (you're not going to save a bunch of cobalts against a level 10 kultorask that just goes QR), but most of the time your ships are going to be left crippled and will die soon - not to AOE though, but to regular attacks.

In such a situation (fleet weakened after AOE), you can do two things to prevent them from getting killed: 
- heal them (which is why SR and RC are so key to survival against AOE) and/or
- prevent them from taking any more damage (and this is where animosity is king by taking most of the heat off your weakened ships and letting SR get the job done on the healing; yeah it's not uncapped AOE, but it's close enough)

My point:

- Radiance is a powerful warship that does a lot more than locking down a single enemy ship. It focuses on tanking and dealing damage, true, but it definitely ain't as dumb as you seem to think and it synergizes very well with the rest of your fleet in a number of ways; start using it for your own good or start increasing AI level until you have to pick a radiance sometimes, cause you clearly aren't having much of a challenge if you're doing just fine without even touching it.

- Radiance should be seriously taken as yet another factor in our little who-has-more-aoe-and-who-can-deal-with-it-better discussion; should be treated on par with Distortion Field IMO. 

PS. Please don't get offended by me picking the "ok sry but that's noob" card. That may not have been the most gentle way of explaining why Radiance is good and should be treated seriously, but really... you can't claim to be a good driver if you've never touched the wheel. You're just going to make yourself sound silly.

I just saw a post advocating multiple killer strategies involving animosity, and I stopped reading....I believe we have an example of the pot calling the kettle black...

As a complete aside, I don't know how exactly what you want to distinguish between different types of AoEs but there are 4 types:

1. Classic AoE -- Centered around the original spawner (shield regeneration, missile barrage, etc)
2. Targeted AoE -- Centered around a selected target, not the original spawner (malice, chastic burst, vertigo, etc)
3. Column AoE -- Damages units in a column connecting the spawner and the target (cleansing brilliance)
4. Frontal Cone -- Damages units in a cone shaped area (the maw, scattershot)

Whether it is worth mentioning the differences is up to you, but there are huge tactical differences so I thought I'd bring it up...scattershot and maw can be avoided by going behind the ship while missile barrage cannot...chastic burst and meteor storm can be somewhat countered by spreading your forces out since those AoEs require a target to be selected and then spawn from that target...

In fact, once we talk about tactical details of things like the Maw, we would have to bring other aspects into the discussion (e.g. good luck circling a Vorastra when it can just teleport two lengths of itself back and voila - you are still in front of it :P). 

The maximum durability of the Radiance is about 15600 at L10 with L4 Absorptive Armor and all toughness research (5408 Shield, 4836 Hull, 22.2 Armor, Max mitigation 80%). Against 37 unupgraded Kodiaks (DPS 18, composite), said Radiance will only last about 156 seconds (223s in AR max culture and 260s in AL max culture) without a heal. I imagine this situation is quite unrealistic in most MP games for a number of reasons, so the average Radiance will probably not last quite as long as that.

As far as I understand it, the Radiance tanking like this will reduce fleet damage to some degree, but it won't last very long under sustained assault (a similar problem to the Iconus if you lose it), particularly against upgraded PMs or a Dunov (reduced AM for heal) and you use up ability points that could be invested in Detonate AM.

Animosity + Vengeance doesn't really work on large fleets because you need to time the cast properly, and 15611*2.3 is just not enough total durability to destroy enough ships to make the exchange of your Radiance for them worthwhile.

You could still space your units out so no matter where the Vorastra jumps to, it can't attract all of your units.

Resurrection anyone?

You are going to have a level 6 progenitor sooner than later if you're serious about it.

By the way, please tell me which of the below does your 15611 include and how would those affect the number:
- Shield mitigation (including Advent-specific gadgets?)
- Armor (including boosts from other sources?)
- Passive regeneration?
- Heals? (you said that's not included)
- SP? (should work very well on the toughest cap in your fleet; I'm pretty sure iconus would be soaking damage after mitigation and armor; e.g. much less than the raw dps of guns shooting) 

Oh and all the information about "10 second channelling time" that supposedly gives you time to interrupt the ability is plain bullshit. The Maw works like this:
- first the titan needs to face the target (takes the most time)
- when the ability actually fires, it almost instantly destroys every frigate and corvette in the huge cone in front of it (it's literally something like 1 or maybe 2 seconds MAX and it's all over)
- the Vorastra then channels the ability for the remainder of its duration, sucking in the debris and turning them into resources (I admit I didn't pay attention to my resource counters when I did that, but the Vorastra does channel for the full 10 seconds despite everything being long dead)

Good luck interrupting this ability if the Vorastra teleports itself while already being turned in the right direction (not hard, done that myself a couple of times today). The whole party will be over within 2 seconds if the Vasari does it all properly.

So... no, you can't really counter this by spreading your fleet or going behind the vorastra. First you lose all cohesion and all your AOE heals and protects cease working; Second, Vorastra will still be able to kill half of your fleet at least.
The only counter to this ability that I can see is
1) spread your ships all over everywhere as soon as you see a Vorastra in the gravwell
2) use AM drains and strong CC to prevent the Vorastra from using any ability
3) Regroup your fleet and engage the vasari fleet once you are certain that the Vorastra will never again manage to accumulate 130 antimatter until it's dead or runs away (and if you let it hit 190+ AM for Jump & MAW, you can pretty much start running already). Always remember about the Kortuls, their cooldown nerfs can really fuck up your DA chains even if they don't manage to drain you fast enough.

True, but in competitive MP, losing said cap ship could mean the difference between you (or your team) winning and losing.

I thought I was being reasonably clear? Maybe it's TL;DR. But I said:

That rounds to 15612, actually. Shield mitigation is part of the survival time calculation. Okay, I agree passive regeneration will add some seconds to survival time, but then the HCs are likely to have upgrades too.

As for Vengeance, yes, at maximum mitigation with all research, you can get a 100% advantage over your opponents (or 33% without research), but the penalty is not just 3000c +400m +250d, it's also 54s rebuild time, travel time to your battlezone and potentially damage caused to your fleet by abilities because you didn't have Detonate AM. The Iconus absorbs 33% raw incoming damage before all modifiers (including weapon type to armor type adjustments), not 33% of the caused damage, so you still have the problem that the weapon damage must go somewhere.

As for healing, if you've got the ships, yes, it will have an effect which isn't in the calculation. But then, your opponent may also have healing too, which will balance that out.

I guess you didn't read the infocard. The Maw once worked the way you imply, but it has been nerfed to have a max target number of 15/30, so you can't now lose your whole fleet to it (although you're right that it isn't channelling anymore), and it no longer affects corvettes, only frigates. Also, against a Vorastra, I would have thought it is a good idea at least to spread your carriers out (if not your main fleet) so you can't lose them all at once to its attacks and attending fleet.

Hm. I have seen a massive fleet (>300) of corvettes do the job with Iconus repulsion being artfully microed, so I guess you could add that to your list too.

Animosity is rubbish for several reasons:

1. The range is pathetic...at lvl 1 LFs can actually outrange it, and even at lvl 4 LRFs, caps, titans, SBs, and turrets will outrange it too...this means that in order to use the ability effectively, you have to charge right into the enemy fleet and stay there...in all but the early game, that makes your radiance extremely vulnerable and will likely be suicidal...
2. The cooldown is 35 while the duration is 20...even if you affect the enemy fleet, you won't be able to do so continuously...
3. It doesn't affect SC, the biggest source of firepower in late game fleets (and sometimes even mid game fleets)...
4. Even if the radiance could guarantee that ALL enemies in the ENTIRE gravity well would attack it INDEFINITELY (ie no AM or cooldown considerations), the Radiance sucks at tanking...even in the early game, fleets of 50+ LFs are going to be driving this ship off fairly quickly...about the only time this would be useful is in the very early game when you have about 10-20 LFs and it is better to target frigates than caps...but in that early game scenario, you won't be synergizing with any other cap abilities...
5. The radiance is probably going to be one of the first ships targeted anyway by your enemy....they are going to want to be able to use cap/SB abilities with impunity, and if they have a low level titan then they'll still want the radiance dead simply because of its AM draining...again, unless it is the very early game (where you don't want to target caps), this ability is not gaining you much...

I suppose you could make the case that if there were multiple radiances with animosity, you could cause the enemy to waste time retargeting and what not....that's moot though because by the time you have multiple radiances there will be a lot of SC (see point 3 above) and you'll be going through capital ships like toilet paper...

I wouldn't get on your case about this if it weren't for the fact that you accused someone else of being noobish for not even using the ship...as far as I'm concerned, not using a ship and using a ship noobishly are equally noobish...

As for maw...

Biggest weakness of Maw is that it is targeted...even if the VL titan micro jumps right in front of a fleet, it still has to focus on a target...that actually can be a real pain for the VL player as facing directly at a ship moving sideways or towards you can be rather tricky...in short, it is not uncommon for Maw to fail simply because it takes too long for the VL player to actually lock onto a single ship that is positioned to suck in many others....spreading out your ships even a little severely limits maw, and besides you'll want them spread out (or protected by repulsion) anyway to avoid the effects of desperation...even when Maw could affect infinite targets, players were successfully countering it with repulsion or with spreading out there fleet...

@N3rull:

The above posts describe the extent of my experience with the Radiance, which is why I have never used it often enough to utilize Cleansing Brilliance. Indeed, one of the first strats I ever tried when playing Advent for the first time was Taunt+Vengeance. My response? "WTF? The Radiance is made of tissue paper with no end in sight!"

This is one of the many reasons I would buff the Radiance, specifically Energy-Absorptive Armor:

• Maximum Shield Mitigation is increased by 2->4->6->8%, allowing the Radiance to endure much more damage when under fire (though it remains vulnerable to phase missiles, although the armor buff from Energy Absorptive Armor helps a lot against that)
• Damage output increases by 5% per incoming enemy attack received (does not respond to friendly fire), up to a maximum of 100-200-300-400% bonus damage output; lasts for 1 minute; each incoming attack refreshes the cooldown

But that's another thread (quite literally: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/448817/page/1/)

These days, I tend to favor either the Progenitor or the Discord as my starting capital ship; either way, the Rapture is always my second capital ship, for Vertigo and Concentration Aura.

I'll be honest: I WASN'T offended by your playing the noob card. In many ways, I AM a noob. Is it mean to call a spade a spade?

Resurrection, the clear winner of the "Worst Cap Ability" award.... ?

This is the one cap ability that I have never once had the opportunity to use, even once. Anyone else?

I am actually not sure how to use it. Do I have to have the progenitor and new cap in the same well? In the well the original cap was destroyed?

In theory it is an extremely useful and unique thing, gives you back your lost high level capital ship. But in practice..

There are 4 main reasons for me I never use this ability.

1. I don't like to lose high level capital ships, it is a rare event if I lose one, and using it to resurrect a level3 capital ship is a bit unnecessary. In singleplayer it is easy to keep your capital ships safe, only if the AI has multiple PJI's and focuses fire on a capital ship there is a chance to lose an even high level ship. But it's rare.

2. The other abilities of the Progenitor are good enough I won't choose the resurrection, that I will never even use.. I've used it less than 5 times in my life.. And only in singleplayer games, online I never even thought about it.

3. Rebellion and the introduction of titans. I like titans, and after my first capital ship I will build a titan.. And until the titan is around level8-9, I don't really feel it necessary to have more capital ships than one, maybe two (I really like the Halcyon).

4. I don't always start with a Progenitor, many times I choose the Halcyon, early SC armada has some benefits. This way having a level6 Progenitor is a bit..delayed, and I will want every point in Malice and Shield Restore or how is that called.

If I understand the ability correctly. Your higher level capital ship can die anywhere in the material universe. If you had it in the game you want to use Resurrection in, and lost the ship, you can use resurrection. You need to have the same type and lower level capital ship to use this ability on, and ONLY ONCE per lost capital ship.

Itdoesn't matter where the ship was destroyed I think, and you need to move the new ship close to the progenitor, I think Resurrection has a range, though I may be wrong, I am not an expert in this

All of the above is correct. Just to be clear, you can only resurrect one of each type of cap ship; this will be the one with the highest level that was lost.

This means if you lose two of the same type of cap ship, you can only resurrect one of them, but if you two different cap ships (e.g. a Halcyon and Progenitor) you can resurrect both of them. When resurrected, the ship has just enough XP for that level.

Yay I roused the crowds.

Too many posts to respond individually I am afraid and I'm at work, so in short:

@ why animosity is bad and useless and radiance is weak and can't tank it forever and it doesn't deal enough damage with vengeance and ...

You guys really all sound as if you expected Animosty + Vengeance to be about as strong as The Maw; as if you expected the Radiance should be able to wipe the whole enemy fleet alone with animosity and vengeance, tank them all forever until they're dead, with the rest of your fleet being completely unnecessary other than to use Perseverance and/or SR and/or SP. If that was the case, this shit would be retardedly overpowered, don't you think?

I promise I will give Advent a thorough look again soon enough - I haven't played it for a some time, so my knowledge may be a little eroded. But this ability does redirect all damage from a high number of enemy ships to your toughest ship in the fleet. Yes, radiance is your toughest ship; it's not a Kol, it's not a Kortul, but it's still your toughest ship. In my opinion, forcefully redirecting all guns to the tank from your other crucial units has its merits, it HAS TO have its merits. Maybe it should not be used all the time, in every fight and immediately, maybe it should not even be expected to; maybe it should instead be used at crucial moments, to save another key ship like another cap ship or your important frigates and let SR patch them up a little bit.

Or maybe one should even consider getting one Radiance purely to act as a Taunt Tank? Radiances have the super strong DA and everybody thinks they're made for this ability, but you pick various caps for various purposes... maybe one should consider getting a second radiance not for DA (1 points or even none at all), but solely for Animosity taunting? It would serve a whole new purpose of taking most enemy guns off your fleet, as if you actually had a seventh cap ship to choose from. It would be a ship nobody would actually want to shoot cause there wouldn't be a reason for it, but one they would have to shoot because you said so.

So I will look at it again, but I'm pretty sure, confident, that it has its uses... if only you stop expecting it to be an "I win button". I know that I'm always pretty pissed off when I tell my Kortuls to shoot a SB or a Titan or anything else that I really want dead, but my Kortuls instead decide to shoot the Radiance... and so the SB get's to put another meteor shower in, or the enemy eradica gets another CB in, etc.

@ The Maw

Indeed, the ability was changed to work only vs frigs and has a target cap on the convert (kill), but no cap on the pull; I recently saw the ability fling a large number of enemy ships behind itself without killing them, but I thought it was a bug like a couple others I found recently.

I admit the ability doesn't look as good as it used to, but

Either way, the ability is no longer as strong as I thought indeed.

Regarding the aiming difficulties, however, I still believe it can easily catch its target cap unless you are facing all carriers (which don't really need to be in any sensible formation to be effective). I repeatedly managed to catch desired enemy targets (moving or not) with this ability almost instantaneously, by turning the vorastra in advance and teleporting to a place where it would end up facing the enemy target exactly. Usually the vorastra aims less than one second after the jump unless I fuck it up (agreed, it does happen sometimes). It takes some skill and expertise to do properly and is probably harder in multiplayer than it is against AI, but if I manage to do it almost every time after ~5 tries of practice (whether the AI is charging at me or trying to retreat or stationary, all the same), then multiplayer pros should be able to do it every time no problem.
It's all about the jump; every second of aiming the vorastra has to do comes from you doing the jump poorly.

Just plain DPS-wise, it's impossible that you have the DPS and survivability to kill every enemy ship, while he hasn't even got the dps to kill a single cap. It's like playing chess and never losing as single piece that's not a pawn. You can achieve it against your 5 year old sister who's just now learning how pieces move, but any respectable opponent is bound to force at least several exchanges between the high-value pieces.

Thank you for my daily mirth.

OK you are right, I forgot to mention I haven't played skilled games in a long time and based my statement on more recent AI games where I never lose a capital ship. And I rarely play Advent online, and don't really track my losses, only thing matter it was a fun game or not, and Resurrection has not much connection to it And after the release of Rebellion losing a capital ship lost it's importance after your titan is out (maybe many others won't agree with me on this but I liketo center my playstyle around the faction's titans), and anyways you are used to losing capships mainly against Vasari and their PM's, so you won't really have that much high level capital ships.

AND one big problem with Resurrection is.. what happens if you lose the Progenitor? There is no garantee your Prog will reach immortality before using the ability, and it can even be your first loss, this way making resurrection useless lol.

Tell me, why would you lose the Progenitor first?
To enemy guns shooting it, perhaps?

Guns that you can tell to do otherwise?

Of course there are strikecraft to be taken into account, which you should deal with by other means (fighters, flaks, tele push, perseverance, SP, SR... some of that should do. Or just cast vengeance on their target as they make their pass, that's the most trollish way to do it imo).

Oh and for the record, since it's my own thread I don't mind the topic shifting. As long as the discussion is educative and compelling, I'm fine with letting it go its own way.

It's not like there's anything more to say about the Rankulas, everybody agrees that it's lacking (some of whom being in agreement that it's plain bad; and some of whom being outright disgusted at how shitty it is *raises his hand*).

Exactly, strike craft, or a titan, you cannot make your ship immortal forever with any method mentioned.. Or I lose my Radiance if I start the animosity. I guess having the DA is a must against titans though, so not really a good change. If Radiance was much stronger, Animosity wouldn't be just point lost on a useless ability..

Oh, I don't really like Vengeance because of the Rapture, it is a really weak ship, like made of glass., even against AI it is weak, and I don't feel the other abilities good enough.

It's time for the thread to die, I am afraid. It's a good indicator when one has to start repeating himself, because the other partcipants of the discussion  begin to forget what has been said.

1. I never once suggested to forget about DA. It's still a key ability in your roster. But I believe people should stop treating the Radiance as a DA spam generator. You CAN get an extra radiance for its other potential application: poweful crowd control. Think of it as a seventh cap to choose from. NOT a substitute for DA, but a unique tool for unique purpose.  

2. You say you can't make it immortal. You obviously can't, it would be fucking OP otherwise. As i said before, it's a tactical tool that lets you achieve a whole load of effects, from forcing vengeance to its max potential, through removing threat from your other key ships to many other applications, e.g. you can potentially prevent overseers from healing things by forcing them to shoot the radiance instead. You can prevent dozens of enemies from escaping the gravwell, including caps. Maybe you can even break subverter's channeling with it, i dunno. Don't treat it as an I win button. Treat it as another tool at your disposal. A simple tool with a lot of potential, but a price to pay.

Speaking of which, of all the races, advent are the only ones that can ignore a huge part of that price. Think about it, maybe it is a worthwhile tactic in tough battles. Maybe Resurrection should not be treated as a last resort, but as a regular tool of the trade.

Also, don't think about losing the Animosity Radiance as losing a regular cap ship (if you have Resurrection available that is). Regular caps are meant to stay alive. Think of it more as a long cooldown that (may) come with what would otherwise be an OP ability.

CAN WE MAKE IT TO THREE PAGES????