Tech Tree Design - An Example and Proposal

                I've played a lot of Galactic Civilizations II.  At this point, I can launch a game on Suicidal difficulty, and before the year is out, have the AI's all eating out of the palm of my hand from the three planets I haven't swindled them out of.  Now that we're looking at a sequel, there are several areas where the game could use a boost, and one of them, as has been said before, is the tech tree.

                This is quite the interesting topic for me, and there's a lot to demonstrate.  Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I decided to go one step beyond that and make a full on example program (written in Java) demonstrating the concepts I feel are important (I have a lot of free time).  You can download it here.
The remainder of this post will be dedicated to explaining the principles that went into my little example.

How requirements work

Features: An Overview

There's something in the example that might be worth explaining off the bat.  First, you might notice how some techs are connected with straight lines and others with dashed lines.  This is because my example employs both standard tech prerequisites (shown with straight lines) and "optional prerequisites" (shown with dashed lines).  The idea is, that to research a tech, you must have all of the standard prerequisites, but only need one of the optional prerequisites.  As a result, a player has much more flexibility in how the progress through the tech tree.  There are several reasons for this, which I'll elaborate on below.

One option for better engines

Better Engines

When thinking about how the technology system could be improved, I kept in mind a principle once stated by Sid Meier: a game should be about making interesting choices.  So, if you think your ships are going too slow, you should have many interesting alternatives.  In GalCiv2, if you wanted faster ships, you could either redesign your ships to make sacrifices for more speed, then pay to upgrade them (usually not an efficient option), or you could research the next tech on the "Engines" tech path and keep researching down that path until you're satisfied with your speed.  In other words, the GalCiv2 tree generally left you with only one viable option when you wanted faster engines.  It would be nice for GalCiv3 to give you a better selection - and my example aims to demonstrate how.

So, let's look at the tech tree with the eye of someone who's wanting faster ships.  You've got a whole host of techs across the tree that provide engine speed bonuses.  Some techs provide larger bonuses than others, and some might be more accessible than others depending on what has already been researched.  There are also techs offering engine modules - you've got the Organic Engine, which combines a regular speed boost with a repair functionality, the Subspace Drive which boosts warp speed but not combat speed, and the Warp Bubble, which is similar to the GalCiv2 version.  In short, a person wanting better engines has a multitude of options, and when deciding, they can consider the other bonuses that they would get for choosing different paths.

One side-bonus of getting Antimatter Synthesis

Improving Replayability

That is another benefit of my approach to tech tree design - in the course of trying to advance their current goal, the player must weigh a host of other bonuses which aren't directly related to their goal, but which they might obtain depending on which path they chose.  Hence, if a player chose to get Antimatter Missiles to arm their ships, they would then have the option of building Linked Resonance Observatories on a dense cluster of planets to boost their research.  Thus, the decision of which weapon they want now involves a detailed value judgment, which in my opinion is more interesting than just comparing weapon stats like DPS and range.  Furthermore, after picking a path, the player might wonder where the other path would have led - and play another game to find out.

This should be interesting to try...

Making Techs "Cool"

One last thing I hoped to show was some ways to make a player want a tech.  Admittedly, many of the techs in my examples are mostly flat bonuses, but I always tried to have at least one thing in each that was more interesting than +10% research or an upgrade from "Missile Mk II" to "Missile Mk III".  Hence, there are things like a building that can damage nearby enemy fleets, an organic factory that boosts production of similar factories, and a reduction in ship cost - all things that can significantly alter how you play the game, if you choose to go for them.  Perhaps that indicates a question to ask yourself, whenever you're designing a tech: "How would I play the game differently, if I had this tech?"  Hopefully, the answer will be interesting.

 

Well, that's about it for what I have to say.  Hope you liked the example and the writeup.  Be sure to post your thoughts in the comments!  Thanks for reading!

35,196 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

I'd like to let you know that your download is only a black code box, there's nothing in it. All the files are there though; did I do something wrong?

That being said, this is a wonderful idea and it is very well-made! I do take issue with one thing however; you should be rewarded in some way for having multiple "optional" prerequisites and not just have them as "fluff" more-or-less. This I fear would make it boring in much the same way "Laser 1,2,3..." was boring. 

All of that aside (I can't see if you're a founder or not) the founder's vault has a few preliminary pictures of the tech tree, specifically the weapons. They show nothing like this, only showing single-line prerequisites :c

Good idea regardless.

Reply #2 Top

I quite like the optional prerequisites idea and especially the other 'vague' options that might nudge you to choose some technology over another. Perhaps these can be linked to ideologies and be unlockable as well. The only problem I can see for now is if it gets too complicated in the end! Well done, nice post!

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Reply #3 Top

Quoting ParagonRenegade, reply 1

I'd like to let you know that your download is only a black code box, there's nothing in it. All the files are there though; did I do something wrong?

That being said, this is a wonderful idea and it is very well-made! I do take issue with one thing however; you should be rewarded in some way for having multiple "optional" prerequisites and not just have them as "fluff" more-or-less. This I fear would make it boring in much the same way "Laser 1,2,3..." was boring. 

All of that aside (I can't see if you're a founder or not) the founder's vault has a few preliminary pictures of the tech tree, specifically the weapons. They show nothing like this, only showing single-line prerequisites :c

Good idea regardless.

 

To make it work, first make sure you've extracted it from the zip file and that the "source" folder is in the same folder as the JAR file.  If that's not enough, you should get the latest version of Java here (don't forget to opt out of the Ask toolbar when installing).  It should be able to run fine after that.

Reply #4 Top

Remember its not necessarily just making the players interest more enjoyable.  The AI has to be able to understand and use the tech tree to.  The more complicated it gets the more Computing power needed put into make it think and more likely to error or make bad choices.  All in all its not a bad idea and its one approach to the tech tree. 

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Reply #5 Top

well I've been asking for multiple pre-requisites for techs for a while the idea of an optional required tech never crossed my mind but i like it

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Darvist, reply 4

Remember its not necessarily just making the players interest more enjoyable.  The AI has to be able to understand and use the tech tree to.  The more complicated it gets the more Computing power needed put into make it think and more likely to error or make bad choices.  All in all its not a bad idea and its one approach to the tech tree. 

Well they keep bragging about all the cool things their multi core internet connected AI can do, so I think it can handle it. (I hope they aren't puffing up the AI too much. Over promising that would be lethal.)

Reply #7 Top

Actually the AI could make the right decisions...based on a value number...similar to the system in Gal Civ 2...

The higher the value the more desirable...adding in a "type" like if players or you get in a fight with x type weapon...research y type defences...

My only problem from what I gather is that you couldn't research all the tech...I like to play a custom race that allows me to research everything...outside of "racial specific tech's" which I can conquer or trade (usually I have tech trading disabled...the AI goes nuts trading tech)... It's like they don't understand that giving a race with high populations the Troop transit, or population cap techs should be avoided..instead it's a basic value not taking into account their Faction/Racial/Species differences... Say it's early in the game and an AI has Medium Grade Shields and Energy weapons and they trade with a neutral AI their shield tech thus rendering their energy weapons less effective...to gain something of similar value...like Armor, or Chaff defense...Would any reasonable nation trade a defense for their primary offensive tech to a "neutral larger faction/race/species? Honestly  I don't believe they would. However in many Gal Civ 2 games I'll see that happen often when "tech Trading is enabled"... Also, if someone's military might is bigger but they don't have troop transport tech I've seen tech traded on threats...which doesn't make sense to me...especially when the AI threatens my civilization...trying to get tech from me when I've got some serious research going on...I just switch over to war tech trees and pound them out of my territories then go back to real research (cultural, industrial, and propulsion) one of the tech's that annoyed me was how population with a xeno farm putting it on a bonus tile was almost always unnecessary for most civilizations you'd run into the unhappy civilian issues, due to overpopulation...strange that miniturization didn't mitigate this...phenominum.

Also I wanted to create a "Fun Planet that would affect happiness in my galactic empire...didn't work sure the planet was happy but it never affected others..."

However I do like some of these ideas particularly how it wasn't just a direct line (sure that's easy to understand but this method mentioned would definitely make me play different ways with different races...I really do like Direct bonuses adding in some indirect ones would make it a bit more interesting...maybe even "unlocking different combos after playing a few times could be really cool" (the secondary combos being something we discovered after learning the tech...)

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Darvist, reply 4

Remember its not necessarily just making the players interest more enjoyable.  The AI has to be able to understand and use the tech tree to.  The more complicated it gets the more Computing power needed put into make it think and more likely to error or make bad choices.  All in all its not a bad idea and its one approach to the tech tree. 

To me, it seems that in order to use a tech tree like what I'm proposing, all the AI needs is the ability to make long term plans.  For instance, if the AI chooses to concentrate on invading a lightly defended neighbor, it'll place a very high value on techs that increase soldier strength, medium value on things like miniaturization and engine speed that let it deploy soldiers more quickly and in greater numbers, and modest value on things like ship weapons & defenses that help it fight whatever weak defenders its opponent has.

Once the AI has figured out what it wants, it can then evaluate the tech options it can research accordingly.  Each option is valued based on the bonuses & modules it unlocks, and also based on the future techs it will unlock.  An option is much more valuable if it an optional prerequisite (or the only standard prerequisite) to a tech the AI values highly, and is somewhat more valuable if it is one of several standard prerequisites.  Add weights to the tech values based on how long they take to research, and you've got a pretty reliable system for letting the AI choose techs based on its long-term goals.  The only real hurtle is programming the AI to decide how it values each bonus with respect to whatever goal it chooses.

Quoting Indomidable, reply 7

My only problem from what I gather is that you couldn't research all the tech...I like to play a custom race that allows me to research everything...outside of "racial specific tech's" which I can conquer or trade (usually I have tech trading disabled...the AI goes nuts trading tech)... It's like they don't understand that giving a race with high populations the Troop transit, or population cap techs should be avoided..instead it's a basic value not taking into account their Faction/Racial/Species differences... Say it's early in the game and an AI has Medium Grade Shields and Energy weapons and they trade with a neutral AI their shield tech thus rendering their energy weapons less effective...to gain something of similar value...like Armor, or Chaff defense...Would any reasonable nation trade a defense for their primary offensive tech to a "neutral larger faction/race/species? Honestly  I don't believe they would. However in many Gal Civ 2 games I'll see that happen often when "tech Trading is enabled"... Also, if someone's military might is bigger but they don't have troop transport tech I've seen tech traded on threats...which doesn't make sense to me...especially when the AI threatens my civilization...trying to get tech from me when I've got some serious research going on...I just switch over to war tech trees and pound them out of my territories then go back to real research (cultural, industrial, and propulsion) one of the tech's that annoyed me was how population with a xeno farm putting it on a bonus tile was almost always unnecessary for most civilizations you'd run into the unhappy civilian issues, due to overpopulation...strange that miniturization didn't mitigate this...phenominum.

Tech trading is probably one of the main issues with diplomacy in any games that allow it.  Partly that's just due to how it lets a faction give someone else a bonus at no cost to themselves, but, as you mention, the AI is rather poor at evaluating how valuable a tech is to the other party.  If the game does use a system with the AI pursuing long term goals, a possible countermeasure would be letting the AI's have some knowledge of each other's long term goals (including some guesses as to the player's goals), and use this knowledge in determining how much to demand for a given technology (by calculating tech values from their guesses at long-term goals).  Hopefully that would help the issue.

Reply #9 Top

The biggest problems I noticed with the AI in tech trading was that they couldn't appreciate the strategic value of tech, only the technical value.  Not being willing to trade impulse drive for equally groundbreaking tech like Harpoon I never made sense for a technologically-inferior race.  The technical value of Xeno Biology was worth enough that the AI considered it valuable, even if they already had the subsequent tech (rendering Xeno Biology completely worthless).  At the same time, Impulse I couldn't be traded with Impulse II or II when the basic tech actually was more-valuable than the upgraded tech (passive speed bonus versus module).  Hostile AI would be willing to trade their military technology to you when their main diplomatic complaint...was your military weakness (while you were an industrial and tech powerhouse).

I think a few improvements the AI needs would be an understanding of the importance of guarding advanced weaponry, industrial tech, counter defenses to their weapons, and other high-value improvements and modules.  At the same time it needs to understand that losing its valuable tech isn't a problem if it is gaining a noticeable edge with your tech, and finally that certain less-advanced tech upgrades are actually as valuable or more than the subsequent upgrades and should be treated as such.  Trading massive amounts of tech for small cash grabs... is also a very very bad idea.  The AI was okay at tech trading from a position of power but not from an even or lower level.

 

And for the optional tech tree idea, I feel that the more options you have for research the better.  Deciding between different weapons, engines, industrial improvements, etc is always better in my opinion than getting a single choice per tier.  Also, addressing the inefficient upgrade of ship engines, perhaps upgrades might be doable at shipyards so you could spend a certain amount (less than the value of the ship but slightly more than the actual module cost) of industry building new upgrades rather than buying them.

I'm getting really off-topic here...

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Suomi, reply 9
And for the optional tech tree idea, I feel that the more options you have for research the better.

 

Since I already know you like Paradox's games...

Part of me wants that, similar to Jagged Alliance 2 "tonnes of guns" (in this case - tech), but how difficult it would be to develop that for Stardock? Another 20 millions? :D And most importantly - how interesting it would be to play this game.

Yes, I support "the more the merrier" approach, but only when it is an improvement of gameplay, and not overcomplicating. I do trust Stardock to deliver interesting game, even if we won't get a chance to yell something like AK-47 FOR EVERYONE MORE UPGRADES FOR UPGRADES THRONE!

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Rudy_102, reply 10


Part of me wants that, similar to Jagged Alliance 2 "tonnes of guns" (in this case - tech), but how difficult it would be to develop that for Stardock? Another 20 millions? And most importantly - how interesting it would be to play this game.

I doubt it would cost even 50k just to expand the tech tree - and if Stardock is in need of tech ideas - I'm happy to provide (I can throw in modules models and building images too!) :)  And my proposal certainly doesn't involve adding more techs for their own sake - the goal is to ensure that the player always has many ways to pursue a goal, each with their own long-term consequences.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Tohron, reply 11

I doubt it would cost even 50k just to expand the tech tree - and if Stardock is in need of tech ideas - I'm happy to provide (I can throw in modules models and building images too!)  And my proposal certainly doesn't involve adding more techs for their own sake - the goal is to ensure that the player always has many ways to pursue a goal, each with their own long-term consequences.

 

I was just quoting Frogboy's words about 20 mln for nonSteam version. Strange, if I'm not mistaken, SoaSE was made for 750K...

Regardless, user-generated content could be viable addition to the game, maybe even certain boost (remember effect of DayZ mod on ArmA 2 sales, which were popular only among 3 war junkies in each town), or as addition to game later (again, OFP/ArmA series, if I'm not mistaken, Bohemia incorporated some UGS as official content).

As for sheer amount of tech/upgrades, I think we still need balance between quantity, clarity, and enjoyability, and prevent redundancy. I'm not sure changing "rock, paper, scissors" into "granite/clay, kevlar/tissue paper, damascus scissors/scissors made of foil, cardboard and superglue" would drastically change old rules. Especially if we would have too many variables, with too little differences.

But if you can provide interesting system, I guess people will support you.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Rudy_102, reply 12
I was just quoting Frogboy's words about 20 mln for nonSteam version. Strange, if I'm not mistaken, SoaSE was made for 750K...

Frogboy wasn't saying that it would literally cost $20 million to make a non-Steam version. It was a reference to Star Citizen, which had accumulated that much money at the time.

Edit: In case the link doesn't work correctly, it's Reply #59.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 13
Frogboy wasn't saying that it would literally cost $20 million to make a non-Steam version. It was a reference to Star Citizen, which had accumulated that much money at the time.

He could throw me an estimate then.