What heroic bonus should Heroic trait give?

I'd really like such a racial trait. But what will you call it? Advanced Traitor?

Why traitor? - "Herioc" be its name! Imagine Heroic Altarians with 4 tratits, while others have just 3. There was a perk in Fallout 1 and 2 which gave additional parameters. It inspired me with idea to modify Heroic trait in such way.

I don't know that adding a new slot for a trait would fit the description of "heroic" i mean thinking of the definition of the word "having the characteristics of a hero or heroine; very brave" There really isn't any direct relation to the game since we can't add personality and such. Just giving my troops an additional trait that increases my attack doesn't make me heroic in anyway.

So with that in mind what effects would a heroic trait have in FE? The only things i can think of is maybe reducing the unrest since the population is more content with the faction as they are more heroic (noblish mentality)? Maybe give them a small xp bonus for all combat over just the quests? i don't really know. but i don't think that adding a 4th trait to the troops fits the heroic title, even the xp bonus doesn't really fit other than making them stronger but again strong doesn't mean heroic at all.

As far as wonderlust i don't think i'd change that one at all. It gives pretty good bonuses the way it is. But again the idea behind the modability of FE is that you can make the game whatever you want. If you like the idea of the changes you've suggested than they are the best changes for you to make. 

Agree with you. But now being Heroic means just more exp on completing quests which doesn't seems to fit the name. And more - this trait is almost useless.

Being Heroic could mean that a unit is like Hero. Allowing units to become commanders or defenders is too much. Allowing units to cast spells is also too much. Allowing to recruit sion like units? But Altarians already have henchmen.

Just remove it or rename it to "skilled" or something that fits your overall mod design. Then you aren't confined to trying to find something that fits the term heroic. 

It is a pretty powerful thing to be able to double your exp from quests, especially if you can also buy quest maps and do infinite quests.

Even standing alone, the ability to double you exp from quests provides a pretty good levelling advantage.

I don't think it is worth 2, but I also don't think it is worth 1.  I would say it is worth about 1.5 traits, but the only thing to do then is round it up to 2.  Better it be too weak than too strong.

I would say the Altairs are one of if not the strongest default races anyway, so it can't be that horrible.

There are two questions I see unresolved:

1. Why two features (quest maps and double experience from quests) are separated?

2. What is relation between two Atican swords, armor and Wanderlust?

What if logically unite both quest featires in one trait - Wanderlust, then move Athican armor and swords to Heroic trait (or rename it to Great Swords or somehow else? Perhaps add Athican dagger  as a replacement of common dagger. Totally there will be no change, but logically and separately both these traits will have sense. Isn't present Wanderlust has too many features? 

Yes player will have harder time to decide either more quests and experience from them, either better swords and armor. To make choice easier may Heroic (or Great Swords) cost 1 point instead of 2. There is a swordsman on the Heroic icon, right?

To answer your second question: Since you are on this forum, I assume you have read 1 or 2 fantasy novels? Or played an RPG? Quests...swords...armor...the correlation is strong in this one 

Your suggestion makes perfect sense, Webusver. But I am afraid it makes too much sense to combine quest xp bonus and quest maps in one trait. It will be way too powerful for 1 point. In general, I do not like traits that cost 2 points, so that's not an option for me. I like to pick and choose as many traits as possible

The point is that breaking the exp system in half is meant to require more than an investment of 2 trait picks.  It is meant to take the whole race worth of picks that's why it costs 3.

Altair gets only those 2 abilities and it is one of the strongest default races as a result.

I could see making swords have its own trait, but then wanderlust wouldn't be that great.  Better to just leave it like it is and let Altair have swords for free.

If I were going to give swords its own trait, I definitely wouldn't call it "Great Swords" that has a historical meaning which is vastly different than the way swords are presented in FE.

Wanderlust doesn't have too much going on for 1 point as it is, it is pretty good for 1 point as it is now.

Yes I have... Wanderlust! What for all players play and replay? What do they hunter and lust for? EXPERIENCE and LOOT!!! Wanderlust means Experiencelust and Lootlust. I pay for a map and lust for more experience and loot! My crazy greed is all about my treasure! This is experience and loot! These two things are unbreakable unity! 

Will combining of two traits into one make a supertrait? You need 100 gold btw for each map. You need to waste some turns to complete a quest. And the most interesting thing - experience from quests goes only to the leader of the army! So you may count how many quests you should complete to level up several heroes and sovereign. Even combined, these two traits are less helpful than Enchanters or Lucky or Quick etc. When I take general Trait I gain 25% exp for every battle for every unit. If I gather 9 commanders in an army, what amount of experience can I get? Compare their real power and you realize that only 50% only from quests only to the leader is almost worthless.

I think that value of combo Quest maps and exp bonus is in additional loot rather than in experience.

So we return to the second question. What is Heroic? With two traits gone to wanderlust we have unique swords. This set really lack heroic element. What is heroism? Bonus to Attack when battling in your homeland zone of control? Special battle trait? Rescue? What if a heroic race may have Rescue trait, +1 Att in home zone of control and Altarian swords?

Agree. Then how do we call a trait that gives good swords and icon showing a man with a sword?

Wanderlust provides:

• (Much) better leather armor 
• Better swords
• Quest maps

Generally speaking, I want the armor or the quest maps, the swords are a minor perk because they only slightly improve what regular swords do (vs. the armor, which gives an extra resistance slot and better base armor for units that don't spend a trait on it.)

If you want a name for the swords with better counterattacks (which is pretty much what they are) then "Swashbucklers" comes to mind, or perhaps "Duelists".  Doesn't really cover the armor though.

As for heroic, doesn't it also give bonus fame from quests?  I think that this effect (which feeds into henchmen/sion training) was considered the bigger benefit by the designers, though a lot of people don't value fame very much.

Heroic could potentially do some of the following:

• Provide the benefits of the "Underdog" trait or similar - either by making the trait cheaper (though it's pretty cheap already) or by adding it to the race directly (which would mean you could take it in addition to Underdog, which may be OP.)
• Provide some bonus resistance vs. Fear effects
• Provide reduced training costs (people are just queuing up to enlist in the army)

Finally - as far as experience from quests goes, sure the double quest experience only applies to the leader, but just taking along those other units on the quest means they get experience from fighting whatever monsters might have popped up along the way (which happens most of the time.)  Monster experience is a much much quicker way to level than fighting AI military units (which is its own design conundrum.)

Great! I like you idea. There is a trait like Coward which gives -30 Accuracy vs units of higher level. So Heroic could give some bonus to Accuracy. Sadly Tarthans already have one version of Heroic trait. I think that units with heroic trait should fight better when they fight in small groups or badly wounded.

Thanks to everybody for suggestions!

I've added this feature to Patchwork mod https://forums.elementalgame.com/450250/page/2/#3427839