Phase Missiles

The basic question that should be asked is whether phase missiles in general are overpowered, or just the PM-equipped bombers. I think we can all agree that kanraks/sentinels aren't causing any balance issues, so the solution seems to lie in nerfing only the vasari bomber. Zombie's idea of reducing the base damage of it to between Advent and Tec seems very elegant. Although Vasari fans may cry foul, keep in mind the "damage gap" would quickly be closed by upgrades, allowing vasari to continue their bomber superiority, just significantly less than before. 

I don't really like Greg's suggestion of replacing the weapon type to Wave damage, as it would make the entire upgrade path of phase missiles worthless. Kanraks just aren't that good enough to begin with, and as such are rarely used in multiplayer. Same goes for sentinels. Also, keep it mind Wave damage can only be upgraded at TIER 5, while missiles (TEC) and beams (advent) can be upgraded at 2 and 3, respectively. It is absurd for Vasari to have to wait until titans are out to upgrade their bomber damage. Vasari HCs are also the worst in the game, so you don't really get any bang for you buck with those upgrades. 

As for the people blubbering over the fact that this won't reduce Advent's vulnerability to PMs in comparison to TEC, Ironclad can just fix the bug affecting the PM block research and move it to a lower tier. This would probably stop about 90% of the "waaa PM OP plox!" posts.

Vasari Early Game (Skirmishers, Orky)

Most people don't seem to realize that the reason Vasari LFs, Lrms, and vettes are so weak is because they are meant to compensate for the power of the orkulus. Thus, you cannot nerf/buff them without doing the opposite to the other. In the present game, a vasari player can hold out indefinitely in their hw and asteroids with a sb, phase jump inhibitors, and a couple repair bays. This in no way takes any sort of skill and even random noobs can do it.

The problem seems to lie in the fact that PJIs are available very early for vasari (tier 2) as opposed to tier 4 for the other races. An orky combined with pji means you can basically never attack or go through that planet again (until you get bombers). Moving PJI research from tier 2 to tier 3 would be a step in the right direction, as well as buffing skirmishers and vettes by 5% to compensate. 

Disruptive Nanites and Phasic Traps

PT are part of the "unholy trinity" that makes the vasari defense very difficult to break. Giving phasic traps a cap on the number of strikecraft it can trap would go a long way in reducing this inbalance. 8 seems like a good number. That way if you have a 100+ strikecraft fleet they won't be made useless by a couple of cheap defenses.

As for DN, I see two ways you can deal it:

Keep the 5 min duration but make caps and titan immune from the debuff, 

OR

Tie the duration to the rate of fire (7.5 seconds). That way as long as it keeps on shooting regen is disabled.

Either solution is better than the holy op ability it is right now. 

Ankylon

Instead of changing its damage from 40/50/60/70 to a flat 70 for all levels (thereby making it questionable to invest more than one point into it), how about just increasing it to 55/65/75/85? That way the titan gets a nice damage boost early on that increases incrementally till late game. I also think increasing the firing arcs would be good in helping its sub-par damage output.

Ragnorav

If I remember correctly, the VL titan was universally regarded as the worst titan when the game first launched. One year later, it's now considered the best, bar none. Funny how fast the metagame can shift.

I am also very tired of people claiming Ragnarov is weak... I have a replay of a highly skilled player (Grimm), using it against another highly skilled player (Doci) very effectively. If you guys want, I can post it... Still not sure it would persuade the more stubborn players on this forum...

Pre-Rebellion Issues

Stuff that needs buffing:

Kol- make Adaptive Forcefield a passive, reduce GRG's antimatter cost

Radiance- fix Animosity (ways listed above)

Marauder- Buff subversion

Enforcers- Worst HCs in the game, I believe ARESIV did a test on this. Simple, just reduce the cost of the wave upgrades

Rapture- underrated unit. Concentration + Vertigo is like Suppression Aura except it even affects STRIKECRAFT!!!!

Skirantra- fix microphasing aura, at present it doesnt do anything

Starfish- Decrease its cost and make its dps significantly higher than ogrovs, at present it is complete trash unit.

Wishlist

1. Superweapon toggle on/off- Will stop the whining about novas/kosturas being OP

2. Fix Minidumps and Disconnects- only 10% of multiplayer games nowadays have no technical issues

3. Increase value of credits you give to your ally from 100/250 to 500/1000 (you can keep present values for resources)

This will make it so that Eco-players don't have to go through a clickfest marathon every time they want to feed... 

4. In-Game Clock- I don't understand how this basic feature was never implemented...

5. Fix Competitive Random maps- I still frequently get one phase lane starts...

6. Rudimentary Matchmaking system- One can only hope...

Replies

Funny, half the stuff in your first post I had already listed in my first post, so maybe you just need to work on your reading comprehension...

If by trolling you mean suggesting ways to buff units universally regarded as being weak (kol, marauder, etc), then yes, I am trolling.

P.S. Aresiv that dark green lettering is very hard to read. Maybe switch to a more lighter color?

Again, it's an overtime action that does damage based on how long the buff is active.

The current damage table is: 200/400/660/1050 (based on 40/50/60/70 overtime action)

The proposed damage table would be: 350/560/770/1050 (based on 70/70/70/70 overtime action)

The buff lasts 5/8/11/15 seconds.

Also, bear in mind overtime actions generally aren't as good as they allow shield mitigation to ramp up between shots.

This is why I proposed NO changes. I'm primarily concerned with how highly skilled players perform. I've seen the Ragnarov used exceptionally well in these cases.

Unfortunately many not so skilled players feel it's a one man army due to it's AOE potential.

I'm not sure I necessarily buy this comment as LF were always dominated pre-rebellion by LRF of all factions. I don't think anyone cared that Skirmishers were so underpowered. I get that units with Phase missiles are supposed to be underpowered though starting off because their ramp up is so high (excluding bombers which were left out of the equation).

I'm leaning towards a slight damage buff for the Skirmisher at this point because it so severely underperforms the other factions light frigates and no amount of research will bring it inline.

BTW, the Enforcer is only slightly behind the Kodiak and ahead of the Destra in starting Durability/DPS/Cost per fleet supply. Considering the Skirmisher is a non-Phase missile unit it only makes sense to me it is more on par with the other factions at-least in terms of DPS per supply (tie into above comments).

Indeed, caution should be advised. GoaFans E4X Mod has the AL having culture spread from the Capital when the game starts.... that can be surprisingly powerful under certain circumstances. 

Please consider the damage done by chastic burst, UM, scattershot and explosive shot. Then compare this damage with the minor damage increase done by Furios Defense on the Ankylons weapon. It just doesnt compare.

You also should not forget, that the Ankylon often has more actual need of AM reserves than the Ragnarov.

The ingame manual states that the Anklyon is for "Sustained combat". It is not supposed to blow everything out of the sky in no time, it is supposed to grind the enemy down while taking severe beating. That grinding does take a while, and you would rather not loose group shield or Disruption Matrix in the interest of your fleet.

Yes, both TEC Titans are antimatter hogs.... especially in earlier game.

The difference in my opinion is that the Ragnarov does not need his abilities to be sustained during combat as long as the Ankylon.

There just isnt very much that survives Explosive Shot - Scattershot - Explosive Shot.

(Shields down - Armor perforated - Nearly everything dies)

I also want to point out again, that the Ragnarov is quite capable of nailing any and all AM draining ships without abilities.

I cant think of any of the Ankylons abilities being passive without being borderline OP. Same for the Ragnarov.

I was saying that EITHER nerf them by 80 % damage wise OR just nerf them slightly but give at least Advent a credible Phase Missile Block technology unrelated to culture.

Kanraks are not used in MP, because carrier with Phase Missile Bombers happen to be far better.

With the Vasari Bombers being nerfed to down to reasonable levels, I am pretty certain we would see a rise in numbers.

Sentinels being an anti strike craft weapon have poor damage values against most things, I would dare to say the wont become a balancin problem.

As flak is mostly used against corvettes instead of against bombers, those ships often fall out of favour quickly when the game progresses.

That Vasari have the best fighters, does help, too.

The general idea is, to reduce the amount of bombers flying arround, making their weapon choice less important. (And reducing lag)

Not to mention that Vasari Loyalist get a hefty 70 % damage upgrade.... 75 % now with the new Titan related research. Thats huge.

Generally speaking, weapon upgrades are not overly important. You usually research them when you have money to spare.

Phase Missiles are the only exception.... they are so grossly powerful, that they are worth every single ship build less because of them.

I am sorry, but you are wrong.

My test showed that on a fleet supply base Vasari HC are the best by a significant margin.

240 Fleet supply:

24 Kodiaks

24 Destas

20 Enforcer

Round 1: No research

Vasari > Advent -> TEC

Advent and TEC are very close together, Vasari are significantly better, much more ships are surviving the battle.

Round 2: With maxed out research:

Similar results, Advent and TEC still about equal, Vasari supreme and Vasari Loyalist the end of everything.

The higher starting durability of the Enforcers does simple stack higher with armor, hull and shield research. Same thing for the Weapons.

Kol - YES

Radiance - YES (and buff Cleansing Brilliance while you are at it)

Marauder - cant hurt

Enforcers - NO

Rapture - might be true... at least as long nobody instasnipes it with phase missile bombers.

Skirantra - Why not

Starfish - YES

Let me be clear...I'm going on the assumption that furious defenses has splash damage (and thus becomes the primary AoE of the Ankylon)....obviously as it stands it is not a comparable ability...it was my take that I wanted the ability buffed and you argued that such a buff doesn't address the AM issue...my point is that if the ability was buffed, the AM issue wouldn't be an issue...

I'd prefer the later...

Also, I've done HC testing in the past and I concur with Ares, the enforcer is now the best HC...didn't always use to be this way but IIRC the patch that buffed the enforcer was way back in trinity so it should have been the best for the entire duration of rebellion...the only weakness is that its weapon techs are higher tier...

Another point...vertigo doesn't affect SC, never has as far as I know....it did used to have a screwy target filter that would allow it to use an SC as a spawner but it never actually debuffed them....

Ahh, ok.

So do I. A slight nerf + Phase Missile Block tech would make the game not only more balanced but more diverse, too.

With phase missiles being not the bane of any Advent fleet anymore, some Advent players may decide to take a more risky road. The Vasari on the other hand cannot be sure if the Advent does already have PM Blocking tech, so he may decide not to upgrade PM immediatly, rewarding the Advents risk taking.

Or blowing the Advent out of the sky because the Vasari just cannot quit old habbits just yet.

Then simply put PM block on the first culture upgrade too.

Also, it would be nice if you got the culture bonus when you are in your own culture (period). Instead of the partial bonus you tend to get if your fighting on border worlds.

I'd rather go with the slight nerf too. If you take my suggestion the squad of V Bombers are only 1 DPS less than a squad of TEC bombers.

It says in the wiki that it does... 

General rule of thumb...never trust the wiki...

If it did affect SC that cap would be one of the best late game caps by far...

IMO this is either a bug or an unintended effect. At one time it was reduced from infinite to include a target count. However the first 10 seconds of this ability can trap 100/200 strikecraft.

It's supposed to trap 10/20 strikecraft. But like maw it's wrapped in a periodic action so instead a single hangar can trap 10/20 strikecraft every second for 45/60 seconds.

I never understood how people were ok with this being so IMBA compared to the other Hangar upgrades.

I think in diplo it did work as it was supposed to. Trap limited amounts of strikecraft but I guess devs love vasari quite a lot. It is always Vasari that get those "unintended bugs".

Lets say that it supposed to trap X amount of strikecraft per hangar. Do you think it can even be fixed "easily" considering that they cant even get MAW right? Mind you that would be a great change if it did happen, i never really thought about it being limited or how it was supposed to work. That would be a more valuable change than bombers or nanites in my opinion.

I disagree.

1. OP Vasari Bombers can be used offensivly
2. Disruptor Nanites do effective damage in the range of thousands of hull points.

The Phasic Trap is just the top of the icecake.

Still, it should be fixed.

I'm sure they are more than capable of fixing it, but when and how they would do so would be up to them.

Also, changes to any existing product is difficult to justify unless enough people point it out as an issue (which isn't happening much lately).

Regarding the Vasari: how do we know which of the OP effects are intentional design and which ones are bugs?
I would guess that Maw, Phasic Trap and Disruptor Nanites are all bugged; I know that Maw chain-gobbling is unintended and it's supposed to have a target cap. But I don't know why they would design Vasari basic static defenses to be so pointlessly powerful by intention.

OP bombers and UP Skirmishers are probably by design though; they've had their stats the same way for a long long time. Desperation is probably working as designed too.

No idea what Microphasing Aura is about though; it's vague what they were trying to achieve with it, and it appears to achieve nothing.

The bombers I think have been pretty much the same since the far-gone days of single-squad carrier cruisers, when bombers in general were less effective because of the crappy platform (and lack of starbases & titans), and LRFs had no proper counter yet (fighters and flak were used). LFs were crappier in general back then so I doubt anyone cared about the Skirmisher because everyone went Assailants anyway.

For that matter, it's funky how the Sentinel of all things were designed with phase missiles - until the creation of Corvettes in Rebellion, they were primarily fighting unshielded strikecraft (no advantage from phase weapons) or early-game LRFs (no serious phase missile technology yet).

There is a lot of potential truth here. I know for a fact unintended things are done by developers in all walks of life. It's quite possible disruptor nanites was originally supposed to be 30 seconds, but an extra zero was added. Who knows at this point.

It is a combination of two different abilities that were originally designed. It is a redesign based on those two abilities. It would be more accurate to say it is working as intended- but does that mean it is the right thing to do.

Making it AM based would allow for more balance for something that is an AOE damage causing ability is all I'm pointing out which is how the original Suffusion was designed which is now part of Desperation.

Also, considering the only real AM based ability is teleport and maw it would add another dimension to how the titan is utilized and protected.

I dont think that the developers did have the intention to make the Vasari - or any other race - OP.

It just happens.Some thing turn out far more deadly in "real life" than on the drawing board.

When designing a game, you do so in stages on the "drawing board". 

I would guess, that TEC was the first faction developed.... as they are comparable straightforward. Then I would guess they went over to the Advent. They are different from TEC in most ways, TEC focuses on primitive weapons and heavy armor, Advent have high tech weapons and awesome shields instead. So with those 2 factions implemented an "on paper" balanced they tought about a third faction. However, what should the faction be like?

Heavy metal? Average humanity starships? Economic might? Taken by TEC

Sleek design? Energy weapon rampage? Psychic Powers? Taken by Advent

We need a new faction that is none of the above. It needs to have something special above the other two races. And so the Vasari were born. The game files refer to them as "Phase" and that is their primary focus. They have a research tree "Phase Mastery" for a reason.

Research:

TEC: Lets find some fancy sci fi technology not availabe to man today but possible in the future.

Advent: Lets think about how to do the same with psychic powers.

Vasari: Lets think about how to do the same with phase technology.

Now, there is some stuff you have trouble with justifying in the general theme, so Advent have upgrades that have nothing to do with psychic powers at all. I could imagine that they had more of those problems with Vasari. But then the Vasari are an alien race.... far advanced. That means you could give them stuff, that would not suit TEC or Advent. For example "Matter Decompilation". Does the average TEC starship look like it can do that? Not really. Advent? Maybe, but then telekenetic extraction does fit them much better. So Vasari then.

Hey, when our cool aliens can decompile matter, they surely can compile it aswell.... lets give them another armor upgrade making use of this. Ooops... now TEC has less armor upgrades than Vasari... hmm... wait.... hmm... ahh Repellon Premium Armor --> Problem solved. But what to give Advent? Armor? That would be for the third time.... more shields? How boring. Hey, what about giving them higher shield mitigation? --> Problem solved.

So over time, the races received stuff that would fit into their theme. With the Vasari being highly advanced aliens, they could support the most advanced ideas. And that was probably the birth of most of their nasty tricks.

Some of those just dont fit into Advends theme or TECs technology level.

That is of course all just a wild guess.

In any case, the Vasari ended up with some - probably unintended - synergy effects, especially in later games.

The Orkulus is not OP - alone

The Hangar Defense is not OP - alone

The Phase Missile turret is not OP - alone

But all together.... they are.  The moving Orkolus will insure that you cannot blow the turret that is so dangerous out of the sky unmolested and the Hangar defenses will lock your bombers, they only thing you that can deal with a moving starbase without costly losses.

Some things, that have been harmless before, do become a balancing problem with the addition of new content. The Disruptor Nanites are the way they are since Entrenchment.... why didnt anyone notice? First of all, most people dont bothered with the turret to begin with, so they never saw its potential. And its potential was far less when mostly frigates were arround. But now Titans are arround, where 5 minutes of no passive regeneration is the equivalent of several thousands hull, shield and antimatter points.

Looks like it could be fixed by simply converting the periodic action to an instant action and bumping the onlyAutoCastWhenTargetCountExceedsAmount to match the number of strikecraft locked down per level.

Looks like it could be fixed by simply converting the BuffTheMawAttractTarget from a periodic action to an instant action.

ZombiesRus5 has pull. Version 1.80 implemented this change exactly as he proposed. (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/449882/page/1/) One minute seems to me a reasonable compromise based on my testing with a Prog + 50 Disciples vs. a 2-hp-upgrades Orky. The addition of 3-4 missile turrets (enough so they can't be all taken out before the Orky can complete another upgrade) makes that a defensible situation for the Vasari and the upfront cost is fairly reasonable (about half what another preemptive SB hull upgrade would cost, not counting the research cost. Together with that it costs about the same as another hull upgrade, but the research cost carries over to all planets, so divided by [say] 3 [hw+2roids/moons early game] makes it a reasonable investment.) A much shorter buff/linger time for DN (sinkillr proposed 7.5 seconds in another thread) would allow the Prog to dart in the turrets' range to cast SR on the Disciples flock and immediately move outside turrets' range to begin regenning AM again, making DN almost ineffective; the Prog would lose maybe 15-20 seconds-worth of AM to DN on every dash-to-SR but no more (you could do the dash on a nearly tangent trajectory to the turrets' range circle, to avoid wasting a lot of time turning the Prog 180 while it's under fire).

Zombie your suggestions are trash and are indicative of your lack of knowledge of how multiplayer actually works.