[eMOD/WIP Thingie]LH Quest: The Plains Of Sirius v1

Will definately take a look at this.

Just filtering out a few bugs from other mods....balance issues....etc....and then going to install 1.2 with both DLC's....then I'll come back here and download.

Cause more is always better.

Will try this soon.

FYI GFireFlyE-

I am playing a game with your lesser catapults right now. Feedback soon.

Minor update (fixed a typo, changed the model, and tweaked a couple of stats).  Just uploaded the new file, so if you downloaded it before I posted this, kindly grab the new version.  Mostly a couple of tweaks for better early game balance, and went another way r.e. unit model, but no significant change.

I've figured out the premise between my kingdom versus empire 'choice' at the beginning, but I haven't picked out an Empire reward yet.  I'll ponder this for a bit, as I want it to be a little different than the Kingdom reward, for flavor.  I just need to determine what the other leader would have acquired... that balances with what the first leader had.  A shrill maybe? Dunno...

You won't see this choice option I'm alluding to in the current version.  Nonetheless, feel free to test drive the reward and give me some feedback, before I code v2 of this quest.  Modeling is beyond my skillset, but I can live with what I arrived at model wise for the first reward.

Also, the Champ progression I have in mind is 60/110/150/210/400/800/etc., to compensate for the quest packages, but I won't be implementing this immediately.  Essentially, there is are two storylines here to distract you from the 'usual' sandbox game, but as the starting quests are usually worth around 30 Fame, two of those will get you to the first 'free' champ soon enough.  Plus, Bacco tends to show up around y170 or so...

I would be hesitant to increase the champ progression.

I find that there are already not enough champs in the game. More overlapping via quests would be very welcome.

Is this quest mod designed to occur 100% of the time?

Yes.  At least one champ shows up with these two opening quests, and the quests are both turn triggered/100%.  So far, the quests have been showing up like clockwork.  And if you look at my progression, you still get the same number of champs at before, except that the first three, which showed up at 3/50/100, now show up at 60/110/150.  Champ 4 is now 210 versus 200, so essentially about the same.

My concern is that having 3+ champions in the opening turns is probably a bit unbalanced, hence the shift idea.  I'll probably tie the shift to the second quest, though...

That being said, the Champ Progression is currently unmodified with this quest, so no changes to that as of yet.  Also, I'm not sure what happens on the AI end with this yet, which may affect this decision.  If it is possible to code 'AI Only' quests for balance purposes, that'd be great, but I currently don't know any way to do that.

I did try some old code that Heavenfall dug up back in the E:WOM days, but that didn't seem to work.  This had faction/sov triggers, but it may not have been implemented properly, and was probably subsequently pruned in the code.  I may try to mess with it one more time, now that I have a better handle on things. 

FYI, I'm just about to button up quest #2 and upload it now for battle testing.  Right now they aren't tied to each other, but they will have tie ins with each other at a later date.  It's actually been done for a while, except for the final determination for the turn trigger, which I need to make.  I've had it triggered for turn 4, but that was mainly so I could test it out of the gate so to speak.  I still want it to show up early (so the player can agonize about taking care of it), so maybe turn 15 for now?  Bacco shows up on turn 24 usually... but not always.

Not really a fan of being forced into a quest at any given time. Add to the fact that it seems like the champ that comes with the quest is predesigned and not one of the randoms that the game has to offer... 

Obviously it's your mod, so do what you will, but wouldn't it make a little more sense to be a random event ?

Random versus game balance is a pet peeve of mine.  A good example of this is whether you get the Panca Archers and the Brothers Sparus quests dropping or not dropping near your starting location.  If they both do, you end up with two shiny new and rather useful units.  If they don't, well you are two units 'behind the curve'.  This can dramatically change how you approach the early game, and can put AI players behind the curve if you 'win the lottery' with your GH acquisitions.  For a 4x game that is supposed to encourage balanced options, well note my lottery comment.

That being said, as noted I already have a 'second option' in the works regarding the reward.  I'm essentially just soliciting feedback regarding the current option with this release version.  This certainly could be expanded into more options, but the reward in question isn't a 'typical' acquisition (only one other similar acquisition comes up in the game), and isn't intended to replace your champion choices; note the 'Free Champs' count to 400 Fame' remains unchanged (although I'm proposing changing the timing on this spread in a future release) .  To your other point, note how Bacco shows up pretty consistently (not always but most of the time) around/after turn 24, and it's pretty silly NOT to acquire him when the opportunity arises.

This does raise the Janusk dilemma.  Back in the old E:WOM days, players used to always earn Janusk on turn 2.  Some people complained, so Janusk was removed.  I liked having him (someone to fight alongside with in the early game is very useful), but the fact that it was always Janusk did wear on some people.  As I usually play Female Sovs, well Janusk was usually proposed to as soon as possible, so that the Children production could begin.  Those were simpler times, but I do get the 'lack of variety' complaint.  Bacco could be the new poster child for this issue...

The reason I'm suggesting changing that spread a bit ties in with the goodie huts.  Sometimes that +10 fame from the Tower of Dominion means a Champ early, but if the Goodie hut Fame Reward of +30 (pretty common) kicks in beforehand, well that +10 gets washed out pretty quickly.  With the way I've seen fame acquisitions land (Second Champ when you hit 60 fame from two quests, Third Champ at 100+ fame, note you've probably also earned around 10 or more fame from the Cleric, etc. and from clearing monster lairs at this point), so MAAAYBE it might make a difference, maybe not.  I could go in and change all of the 'early quest' rewards to a lower value, but the later game is predicated on these +30s to a degree, and when you need 400+ fame for the next champ, well those +30s are kinda needed at that point, and some might consider them low even then...  The +1 Growth tends to hit a wall pretty quickly too, if food production isn't boosted quickly enough, so while it helps a small amount, you are usually focused on other matters r.e. the build cue.

To be honest, I'd be good with a +30 Fame for the Tower Of Dominion, but many might consider that radical crazy talk...

The OTHER reason for this approach is that I/m still trying to figure out how to code consumables/Champion acquisistions into Sov design directly, hence the quest route. Consumables are now 'locked out' of Sov design, as you can only choose bracers, weapons and accessories now.  My intent here is for each sov to end up with something similar, again in the interest of game balance.  Hence my 'AI only quest' inquiry above.  I could always (if I got  the relevant Stardock interface program) rework the interface to 're-enable/add' a new selector, but that's out of my skillset, and having players change their Elemental.str file seems scary to me.

'AutoQuests' is a cleaner way to do this, in the meantime, and adds to the storyline.  Just picking some dude during Sov creation isn't the same as seeing that Descriptor window pop up after you've started the game.  Said dialogue adds to the mystique of the acquired champ.  Admit it, the first few times you faced Bacco one on one were somewhat exhilhirating!

I did figure out how to add a 'pick one' selector with the Sov abilities, alongside the other abilities (Wealthy, etc.), but so far I haven't managed to get an AutoEquip to take using said selectors in that instance.  Plus, it isn't intuitively obvious, due to the lack of a 'header'.  This ties in with the 'Lieutenants/Number One' idea you may have heard me mention earlier.

This last paragraph did remind me about some old E:WOM abilities that granted Sentinels.  I'll look into that, but as I remember we just had a thread about Champions not working as gamemodifiers in initial setup/turn 1 spawns, and I've not had good luck myself with this, outside of the Summoning token route...

I can certainly add things to the Sov files directly via <AutoEquipItem>, but unless there is a corresponding option in Sov design for custom sovs, well then the player has to code things in by hand, which can be tedius and potentially scary for the average player if they disrupt the code in the process.  Plus, does the AI use Summoning tokens as soon as it gets them?  Not sure on this one...

Finally, as you point out, this quest is a mod, tied into a storyline.  Once you've played the storylines through a couple of times (assuming I finish the followups), you can always take the quest files back out and put other storylines in it's place.

On another note I've yet to play a game through where the plague has NOT shown up, and the 'Night Of The Skellies' or whatever it is shows up very consistently as well.  And the first few riddler quests also tend to show up almost all the time.  Especially the Leech one...

OK, WITH all of the above said, you do raise a valid point, so at the very least more options when the event comes up is probably a good idea.  I was planning on just two before (Kindgom vs. Empire oriented), but more options can certainly be written into the storyline.  I'm already considering a three way battle to replace the one currently described, so I can run with that.

I just wanted to be clear that you and I are of similar minds overall.  Essentially, more champs good, makes more Champ options/mixes r.e. Paths possible, and allows the player to round out his Champ repetoire.  AS LONG AS the AI gets the same breaks, so players don't end up with, say, twice as many Champions that the AI has.  And that is an important point which I'm still trying to figure out a way to resolve.

wall. of. text.

but a good wall of text.

All point made are well thought out and agreed...seem we do think alike as to the direction this game should be taking...modding or otherwise.

Your note towards Bacco is interesting. I turn the twit down everytime he shows his ugly face....mostly because I like to have my sovereign play the part of a mage. It's tough to bring a low level mage to a sword fight.

A suggestion if I may: You mention tying your quest to a turn....and you collorate by Bacco's quest showing up consistently in the early game. Would it be possible....as you continue to develop your quests and storyarcs, to have several of them, but only one of them activate in the early game...locking out the rest from occuring? If such a thing is possible, your mod would naturally give the player a flavor to follow...the player never quite knowing what he's going to get to carry him through the game....should he choose to persue.

This idea is in lines with an idea I had be stewing over....just don't have the modding experience to pull it off....is to have each sovereign have their own plot to follow throughout the course of a sandbox match. Different choices are to be made which eventually lead the sovereign to one of several quest victory conditions opening up to him.

Definately a huge undertaking as all eight sovereigns would need vivid storylines to draw the player in....but one hurdle I was trying to overcome was what the custom sovereigns would do. Being able to have a pot of arc-quests to pull from would solve that.

Anyways....just some ramblings. I think you have a really good thing going here....and like I mentioned above; I'll be giving more time towards these quests of yours soon enough.

Keep up the good work! 

Hey again GFirelfyE!

Apologies for the 'wall of text'.  My fingers have the gift of gab I think.

While there is a way to randomize gamemodifiers in abilities (note the Chaos spell, I think that's the one), I don't think the current quest framework supports 'random' options.  I'll study this a bit, and see if a parallel can be worked out, but I'm not optimistic.  Still worth a shot, though! 

One might be able to have a 'Quest Stat' that starts at 0, but once one of a specific group of quest fires, it changes this value to 1, which causes the other quests have a LOT of dialogue options locked out at that point.  Essentially, they become news reports that  might not do anything.  "Beware the creatures in the wilds..." Duh!  I actually have a Quest Counter set up in the other quest I released today, which so far doesn't do anything but is intended for this purpose, assuming I can get it to work right.

The 'randomness' of which quests that come up ties into the % rating that a quest will appear, especially for turn based quests.  And most event-based quests have 'start turns' for when the percentages are rolled, which doesn't preclude all of them showing up in a game if the lords of computer chance decide to go that way.  So it isn't so much that one quest was picked instead of another, but instead which ones made the % roll to appear and which ones didn't.

So, the other route I KNOW will work is to map out paths.  Essentially pick option 1, 2 or 3 (4, 5, 6, etc...) and different results occur, as we have now in most quests.  Then tie subsequent quests into 'resource checks' that are earned on the first quest.  so if you went path 2 on that initial quest, well your option ties into path 2 (and may have multiple options itself).  Essentially, the other 'option quests' may still show up, but since you don't have the appropriate 'resource' showing that you picked a certain option, you won't see dialogue options for those paths.  So, not truly random, but for example we could rewrite the Bacco quest so that if you pick Option A, you fight Bacco.  If you pick Option B, you fight Janusk, Option C has you Facing Magar, etc. etc.  Of course, trying to NOT make this obvious in the Dialogue is about next to impossible, although at least you can mix things up when this quest appears in the game.  Also, once you know/recognize a path, it loses it's mystery.

Finally, on the Bacco thing, I find that temporarily equipping my mage as a warrior before y170 arrives (Love the Dagger Of The Leech for this, with a shield if one pops up), and you might stand a better chance against Bacco.  Once/if I've won against him, I then hand off the shield to whichever other martial Champion type that can use it, re-equip the bow/ranged staff/whatever, which moves my Sov to the back row again.  Sometimes these get handed off to Bacco after I win.  This doesn't always work out, but if the right equipment shows up in the goodie huts, it's an option that makes a Bacco win with the Mage possible. 

Also, if you don't mind wasting a summoning scroll, etc. in combat, this can shift the odds in your favor if you just so happened to end up with one via goodie huts.  Bacco ends up being a judgement call, but if you lose, you can always grab the boys afterwords hand have a beatdown (stack versus Bacco), and once your army wins against him, he will still join you at that point if you ask.  As there isn't a 'Bonus XP/Fame Reward' either way for Bacco, the only thing to worry about is a few turns of downtime and maybe an injury (we have cure random injury potions for those now, YAY!).

If one of your first champions has that 'Summon Wraith' skull thingie, move that to your Sov.  Another Summoning option to face off against Bacco with.

Anyways, back to work.  Testing option #2 for this quest now, and if it looks right, then I need to code the dialogue...

I've reworked the textures on the reward a bit, to add to it's uniqueness.  The new textures will be included in the next release.  In the meantime, this quest should still work fine, so looking for feedback.

to throw another question at you: Can both your quests, The Plains Of Sirius v1 and An Old Friend - v1, be runs at the same time?

EDIT: Nevermind. Started a game with both active. It's too late to back out now.

I'll see what happens.

Good Morning

NOTE: SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!!!

THE PLAINS OF SIRIUS....has started. I'll use this post to make comments as I go along through the quest...

• In the opening text you have '...overlooking a snow covered frozen river of ice.' which is redunant. Recommend cutting it down to '...overlooking a snow covered frozen river.'
• In the opening text you have the wrong tense in '...simply ceased to exist.' Should be '...simply ceases to exist.'
• Just starting out but the Blood of Sirius ability is...to say the least...freaking amazing! For an early game quest, I think this is not going to be balanced at all...
• It's season 61 now....not sure what I'm suppose to be doing for this quest...there are no hints anywhere to guide me

will post more here when the quest picks up again...

Hey GFirelfy!

SPOILERS!!! (Well, kinda)

The Blood abilities are supposed to offset the limited weapon and armor choices, so that the ability owner can stay relevant into the mid and late game.  Definitely keep me posted how things look in a few levels.

I can certainly dial things down at the beginning fairly easily, to offset later game level bonuses. I tried to do this already with attack strength, but again I'm interested in how things fare in later turns.  The issue is that we can't add a level bonus every other level or whatever (it's once only, or once per level), so I'm trying to make my best guess here.  Note the -25% to experience, which is also supposed to offset the level gains, by making the intervals between levels take longer/slow down the rate of increase of abilities.

Finally, while I could tie this to a longer storyline/go find stuff quest, my intent is for every Sov to end up with one at the beginning - thus increasing the early game Champ count, but with the twist... Think of this as a fashion accessory!

The other rewards I've alluded to will have different abilities of course.  I'm currently wrapping up work on a kitty... and while typing this, inspiration just struck, and I've figured out another interesting choice... so there will probably be multiple options when this comes up, not just two or three...

Opting out may also be a choice, but the 'opt out' option will need to balance against the rewards otherwise available, of course. 

This may also require a little adjustment r.e. early game encounters, to your point. I've already repackaged two existing quests (upgrade options for the units were bugging me), so I could certainly tweak a level here and there to offset... but my intent was to delay the initial Champs a bit to offset this, without affecting the overal 'Champ count'.  To your point r.e. having an 'Open' choice r.e. Champ selection early (i.e. one that you can set down whatever path you have in mind), I see the point, and will of course keep this in mind when I put forth my suggestion r.e. Champ progression, which will tie into this quest.

Good Morning

lolz. I'm on a black screen. Nice try with hiding those spoilers.

but that's okay. I was going to look anyways.

- The Blood abilties....consider Tuatha.....he has limited equip choices aswell and no where near the offsets that Sirius has.

I do like where you are going with this idea....and understand fully that this quest is only the beginning of something quite a bit more grande. I just caution you not to over emphasis elements because the AI isn't going to have the same advantage.

Already in the summer of 193, I'm over twice the faction power level as the next AI faction below me. I could have plucked off an Alliance victory no problem at the moment....except that I can't get to 194....fatal game crash. I'm thinking it has something to do with another mod I was planning on critiquing: https://forums.elementalgame.com/446047/page/1/ .... but can't be quite sure yet.

I just used the Stardock Forum Spoilers tag at the top (note the sunglass smiley at the top of the quick reply window).  No idea how well it works.  It didn't change anything for me, but then I figured it had something to do with my reading my own post.

Tuatha can change out weapons, though, and there are some real doozies in the later game... I know, I've handed them off to him and have seen the results.  That Scythe Of The Void thingie, XP penalty aside, is just scary.

Plus, he gets to use shields...

As for the faction levels thing, yeah, unless the other Sovs get similar booty, that puts them behind the curve.  Still pondering that one... any chance that you saw Sirius in an opposing Sov stack?

Latest thing I am considering is a spell that creates an item that creates a goodie hut, that is unlocked at the beginning of the game, but may only be cast once.  Problem is that even this doesn't guarantee that the AI will use it.

Not yet...

Hey again GFireflyE!

Reading through several posts via a forum search, the AI quest thingie isn't looking good at the moment.  Supposedly a kingdom/empire's population level could be used to trigger event-related quests for AI players, but I just came across a note from Heavenfall noting that this not working under LH.  Dunno if that was fixed since that post...

Of course, if you look at quest balance from the perspective that a player may lose some units to gain others, you could call it an even wash.  But most players are savvy enough to complete quests with few or no losses, once they know what's in them.  This will of course throw off game balance.  Plus, if the AI isn't getting Fame Rewards, well then he isn't earning Champions as quickly as the player is, which can compound the problem.  I'm all about balance, and for now this quest is not by any means balanced versus the game.

Sooo, this is stuff for me to think about as I continue to tweak this quest.  Hmmm, how to send more champions/fame to the AI players...

I very much appreciate the input!

Still spoilers!

Well, good news!  (For me anyways).  In my most recent game, I decided to play things through for a bit instead of just bailing once something I was trying to tweak didn't work.

Anyways, Procipinee was walking past my Sov stack, and I saw a light gray wolf in her group.  Clicked on her stack, and sure enough, Sirius was in the group!  There are three ways that could have happened.  Either the game assigned the Token_Sirius to a goodie hut somewhere, or Procipinee was affected by the random event on turn 3, or the game randomly assigned Sirius as her free champion...

How to know for sure... might have to actually enable cheat and expose the map... off to do more playtesting!  BTW, Reward #2 is still being tested.

Is that good news though? Are you going to have 8 sirius' running around? Only 1 should ever exist....

Hey GFirelfyE!

Well, it turns out there was another reason behind the Procipinee/Sirius spotting... I modded Procipinee's file while doing some token testing, and forgot about it...

That being said, I've pretty much wrapped up my current changes, but am distracted with work on the other quest at the moment.  Plus, I'm still trying to ascertain what, if anything the AI does with this before I release an update, so as to decide on any player vs. AI balancing that may be needed.

Also, still balancing the new units.  Two seem OK, the third is out of control after the first level gain or two, so I need to tweak some values... plus the fourth option reward I'm not 100% sold on as of yet.  It's in play, and works, but it doesn't feel 'right/properly balanced' to me.

Finally, on the 'always shows up' thing that currently happens with my two quests -Right now I have the % chance of these quests showing up set very high, so that it shows up in their next game for people when people install it.  Note that I will release a 'shows up occasionally' variant as well as an 'always shows up' variant, once I'm done balancing, tweaking, etc.  That way, players that don't want to be forced into dealing with these quests every game won't have to.

I'm also thinking about what we discussed earlier about Bacco, and am considering a different take on that one... but that's down the road a bit.

Any update on this now that 1.3 is out?

No update so far.  Been distracted with other things lately.