Knowledge Tech

This seems like a loop logic issue though as you are already expending research to gain additional research points.  Or are you saying that you would get 5 research points on top of what is there already thereby refunding some of the points spent for doing this research which can then be put towards another research project?

Here are some options:

1.  Put some really cool tech behind it so that people want that new tech so bad they tech Knowledge first.  For example, the new tech could be something which allows you to build a wonder that provides +1 research per shard.  Or you could just add the same really cool wonder (or something similar) to the Knowledge tech itself.

2.  Reduce the cost of the Knowledge tech by half.

3.  Completion of the Knowledge tech grants +1 research in your capital.

4.  Completion of the Knowledge tech grants 3 Fame (enough for your first hero).

5.  Make Knowledge the required tech before Civics and Restoration.

Correct. You would be refunded the 5 points. I figure a refund of points would be better than simply decreasing the tech cost because it would mean that you have to wait till the tech is fully complete still before beginning construction of the Study Improvement.

Maybe this isn't the way to go about it.....I was just trying to find a way to make the Knowledge tech as competitive as Restoration and Civics.

Some very interesting suggestions.

The only one I'm not terribly fond of is reducing the cost of the Knowledge tech. Don't want to make it exceedingly cheap if researched at a later time...

I'm an LH nub but the way I see it:

- time to build study is longer than time to build other structures you also want/need early, particularly +production, +economy

magnified by:

- long research times aren't a big deal early since you can already research and unlock new things to build faster than you can build (or afford) them

(making +prod and +econ stand out even more)

I actually open with Knowledge quite often, as a general fall-back if I can't tell enough about my immediate surroundings to decide upon something else to start with (leather-working, shard harvesting, etc..).  Contrary to popular consensus, I don't care much for the Civics Rush.  I like to keep my tax rate at none for as long as possible, so gold can be scarce in the early game.

double post, didn't realize i hit quote instead of edit

In FE, Knowledge granted Prestige, making it much more worthwhile. Now it's not very useful. The Study is too expensive, imho. If it were cheaper to build, Knowledge would be more interesting.

I like the 3 Fame solution.

Not very useful?  That seems odd.  I mean, it's not generally a first tech pick, but you need it once you build your first Conclave, because otherwise your +% research bonuses don't do a whole lot.  (not to mention the % research bonuses that require Knowledge, or the other 50% of so of the Civ tree that branches from it)

I usually choose Restoration first, then followed by Leatherworking or Civics, and then usually Shard Harvesting is close behind.  Knowledge comes in usually just after those.  I don't see a big problem with that - I'm not sure that every 1st level tech needs to be an ideal 1st choice, but you have to research it eventually.

Doh!  Double-post.  Hit quote instead of edit.

but every first tech should be a viable first choice.....else why is it at the front of the tech line?

It seems there is growing concensus for 3 Fame to be added to the tech. I'm not sure if this is the best way to go. Already, your sovereign will gather 3 Fame simply by walking around and questing....usually within 6 turns you will have your first hero summoned...8 turns for certain if you built the Tower of Dominion. That would mean the Knowledge tech's 3 Fame will be completely redundant....

K....I've been staring at Civics, Knowledge, and Restoration and I think I've found the perfect solution to increase the importance of Knowledge....but I need to ask to make sure:

Why do people pick Civics first? Doubtful it's for the gildar because generally you don't need much gildar in the early game. Likely it's for the Bell Tower OR even more likely, it's for the Can Rush Production.

Therefore I propose that the Can Rush Production be moved from Civics to Administration, which has Civics and Knowledge as prereqs. Possibly to offset this a little, the tech cost of Civics and Knowledge should be lowered and be the same as Restoration.

Thoughts? Comments?

It's first in the line because it has no prereqs and other stuff depends on it.  I mean, how often would you research Training first?  Or Charms?

That may not be a bad idea.  I know people like to Rush production, but I have a hard time seeing how you need it on the first tech because you don't start off with much money or much ability to make tax revenue...  Probably wouldn't hurt too much to have it on Admin.  Lowering the cost of the Study might also make Knowledge more attractive...

I start off by doing the first ones in Knowledge before I move on to warfare and magic.  I like to get my base up and running and since I play on huge maps, im not running into peps right away...well usually.

Good Morning

Okay, I've successully changed the tech tree so that the following happens:

• Moved the Rush Production from Civics tech to Administration Tech.
• Reduced the Civics Tech cost from 10 research to 8 research (same as Restoration tech cost now).
• Reduced the Knowledge Tech cost from 10 research to 8 research (same as Restoration tech cost now).

I have made these changes in Techs_Amarian.xml. As far as I can tell this is the only tech tree for ALL the factions. Is this correct? If not, where else would the change need to be made?

So, now I need to have this balance change scrutinized like crazy. Help from the community on this would be appriciated. Questions to consider, but not limited to are the following:

• Is there now reason to take Civics first?
• Will not having access to Rush Production right away slow the early game down too much?
• Is the Knowledge tech now more tempting to choose first?
• Is Restoration now the 'only' real first choice?
• etc

For those that wish to play with this change, simple copy/paste the following code, overwriting the code found in Techs_Amarian.xml:

    <TechDef InternalName="Administration">
        <DisplayName>Administration</DisplayName>
        <Description>Learning how to properly administer your cities will allow you to construct the Town Hall improvement, to lower costs, and maintain larger cities; it will also improve your Faction Prestige by 1. As much as her armies, ancient Antheros relied on its civil servants - its Consuls, Praedors, and Bureaucrats - to maintain her vast Empire. </Description>
        <AdviceText>Upgrading our Bell Towers to Town Halls should provide a significant boost to our city efficiency. </AdviceText>
        <Image>Tech_Administration.png</Image>
        <Color>60,138,25</Color>
        <HotColor>146,255,49</HotColor>
        <Cost>17</Cost>
        <Rarity>100</Rarity>
        <Category>Civilization</Category>
        <Infinite>0</Infinite>
        <AppearanceChance>100</AppearanceChance>
        <Prereq>
            <Type>Tech</Type>
            <Attribute>Civics</Attribute>
        </Prereq>
        <Prereq>
            <Type>Tech</Type>
            <Attribute>Knowledge</Attribute>
        </Prereq>
            <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
                <AIPriority>50</AIPriority>
                <AITradeToGetValue>75</AITradeToGetValue>
                <AITradeOutValue>90</AITradeOutValue>
                <AIAtWarMultiplier>1</AIAtWarMultiplier>
                <AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>2</AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>
            </AIData>
        <GameModifier>
            <ModType>Player</ModType>
            <Attribute>UnlockCityAction</Attribute>
            <StrVal>RushProduction</StrVal>
            <Icon>Consumption_Icon.png</Icon>
            <Provides>Can Rush Production</Provides>
        </GameModifier>
    </TechDef>

    <TechDef InternalName="Civics">
        <DisplayName>Civics</DisplayName>
        <Description>Research in this area allows you to construct the Inn improvement; Kingdom players will be able to construct Hedge Walls, Empire players Wooden Walls. Both will learn to balance the needs of their citizens against their larger strategic goals.  In ancient Coriopolis, all citizens were required to contribute one-tenth of their earnings to the city coffers, to be distributed as the Great Council saw fit.</Description>
        <AdviceText>Rushing production is a valuable tool when your coffers are full and you need a unit or improvement quickly.</AdviceText>
        <Image>Tech_Civics.png</Image>
        <Color>60,138,25</Color>
        <HotColor>146,255,49</HotColor>
        <Cost>8</Cost>
        <Rarity>100</Rarity>
        <Category>Civilization</Category>
        <Infinite>0</Infinite>
        <AppearanceChance>100</AppearanceChance>
            <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
                <AIPriority>100</AIPriority>
                <AITradeToGetValue>75</AITradeToGetValue>
                <AITradeOutValue>90</AITradeOutValue>
                <AIAtWarMultiplier>1</AIAtWarMultiplier>
                <AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>5</AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>
            </AIData>
    </TechDef>
    <TechDef InternalName="Company">
        <DisplayName>Company</DisplayName>
        <Description>Research in this area will allow you to form your soldiers into Companies, turning them into greater threats, in the manner set forth in Themisto's Manual of Infantry Tactics and Custom. </Description>
        <AdviceText>Sometimes the greatest advantage you can have on the battlefield is pure numbers.</AdviceText>
        <Image>Medallions_Advanced_Foot_Solders.png</Image>
        <Color>182,7,3</Color>
        <HotColor>255,48,0</HotColor>
        <Cost>246</Cost>
        <Rarity>100</Rarity>
        <Category>Civilization</Category>
        <Infinite>0</Infinite>
        <AppearanceChance>100</AppearanceChance>
        <Prereq>
            <Type>Tech</Type>
            <Attribute>Logistics</Attribute>
        </Prereq>
            <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
                <AIPriority>50</AIPriority>
                <AITradeToGetValue>75</AITradeToGetValue>
                <AITradeOutValue>90</AITradeOutValue>
                <AIAtWarMultiplier>2</AIAtWarMultiplier>
                <AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>1</AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>
            </AIData>
    </TechDef>

    <TechDef InternalName="Knowledge">
        <DisplayName>Knowledge</DisplayName>
        <Description> Learning this skill will allow you to build the Study improvement, and focus on the research that will keep your kingdom at the forefront of nations. 'The Strategors of Coriopolis call me mad; yet they spend a thousand lives to maintain their borders, while but an hour's study gives me knowledge to defeat them.'  - The Emperor Morrigan</Description>
        <AdviceText>Building a Study in every city will greatly boost our research efforts. And please your scholars.</AdviceText>
        <Image>LostLibrary.png</Image>
        <Color>60,138,25</Color>
        <HotColor>146,255,49</HotColor>
        <Cost>8</Cost>
        <Rarity>100</Rarity>
        <Category>Civilization</Category>
        <Infinite>0</Infinite>
        <AppearanceChance>100</AppearanceChance>
            <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
                <AIPriority>75</AIPriority>
                <AITradeToGetValue>75</AITradeToGetValue>
                <AITradeOutValue>90</AITradeOutValue>
                <AIAtWarMultiplier>1</AIAtWarMultiplier>
                <AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>4</AIEarlyBuildUpMultiplier>
            </AIData>
    </TechDef>