Replicators

Regarding dragons... and scouts

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Regarding dragons... and scouts

from Elemental Forums


1st of all, after 2 playthroughs of attempting to do the dragon statue quests, I cannot for the life of me find the second eye in any reasonable amount of time. It would be nice if, A. the quest spawns nearby or targetted quests that shows you exactly where the 2 eye quests are located at, or B, have a "reveal map" spell that reveals a large chunk of the map for mana, so you don't have to go searching for every inch of the map, or C, have all dragons drop the eyes until you hit 2 eyes.

2nd of all, Dragons... are so overpowered! I don't mean the ones you fight, because by mid-late game, they are just fodder. However, the ones you can tame... nothing the AI can throw at you will ever challenge an army with one of these... and then there are many many other dragon caves... resulting to something like this... (FYI, this was challenging difficulty, and normal wilderness difficulty)

These dragons were picked up on the way to find the last dragon statue with a quick and easy pioneer outpost + rush

This(even with only 1 dragon) not only eliminates all of the challenge in the fight against any AI opponent, it also eliminates the challenge of fighting the end game content of the game, like the above cuddly creature (that died in the first turn).

lastly, Scouts, at atleast custom made ones with the trait to decrease chances of monsters attacking... are really pointless. Everytime they meet any decently large monster army, they get attacked, and clubbed to death. I am then forced to look for the dragon statue manually with my main army.... Needless to say, it took me a long time.

Is there something wrong with the scouts and monster interaction?

----------------------------

A solution to the dragon overpoweredness, I propose:

1. Dragons start at level 1, stats should be something like, 80hp, 15 attack, 15 defense. Every level dragon gains, it gains 10hp, 2 attack, and 2 defense. Further, the dragon should start small, and increase in size to reflect the increase in power

2. Dragons should be unable to be healed, in any means externally. This should however be offset by a passive trait that per each enemy killed, it is healed for 15hp, or 1hp regen per season

3. This should alleviate the massive power jump when obtaining a dragon, and make the progression of the game much smoother

55,501 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Burress, reply 22

If you can beat the dragons guarding the dragon lair, and a single dragon can beat the AI, doesn't that mean you can beat the AI anyway? Isn't that the transitive property of dragon-slaying?

Edit: I could have swore I saw Parrottmath prove transitive closure over the set of dragon-related combats in a thread somewhere here.

 

Assuming that I have enough forces to beat 1 dragon, and I do, with minimal casualties, then suddenly my strength doubles thanks to the addition of another dragon.

Further, Owning an army capable of beating a dragon may do decently well against the AI, however owning a dragon that can be beaten by the army will do amazingly well against the AI.

One of the key problems is that the AI cannot beat dragons, while a comparatively inferior army that, with player control, can beat the dragon, while not being able to as easily crush the AI.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting davrovana, reply 23


Quoting Replicators, reply 21

So you are saying, it isn't overpowered if you choose not to use it(fyi, 1 dragon is enough to win the game)?



No. I am not saying that at all. You are using a straw man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I am saying that the only reason you are winning with dragons is because you are outplaying the AI opponents. 

"And Oh yes, because the game should be balanced around Expert difficulty"

No, it's balanced around normal difficulty, which is a decision the devs made. If normal is too easy for you, TURN UP THE DIFFICULTY. My psychic powers tell me you have less game design experience than Stardock employees. You need to worry about your own experience, not hastily extrapolate your experience to be 100% representative of the whole player community. 




If Stardock has playtest data that shows that a cross-sample of new strategy game players dominate the game with dragons on their first 1-3 playthroughs on normal/normal, then there is a balance issue and you have a point. Since I am confident they don't have such confirming data (it doesn't happen), then you don't have a strong point.  

Or maybe you can do a search on these forums and see the repeated post on dragons being out of balance, with players asking the devs to change it? Go ahead, I'll wait to see what you find.  

If this game has a "balance" issue, it is that the game is too easy once you have won. You can find forum posts supporting that many players have had this experience. But in a sandbox experience like this, that's a natural phenomenon. Other games have it, too. This issue is completely independent of dragons. I have clearly won by turn 150 many times without ever getting a single dragon. What do I do to solve this in a new playthrough? I turn up the difficulty. 

I challenge you to post your save game on expert/expert where you rush to the dance with dragons tech and win by the strategy. If you can do it (I doubt it), the game isn't unbalanced - you are very good at this game, but still just as wrong about dragons being out of balance. 

The only way to prove something is out of balance is if the other methods to achieve victory is equally challenging to accomplish.

In this instance, gaining the Dragon (you do NOT NEED to kill the dragon to get it) means you just gained the most powerful army the AI will NEVER beat. This essentially means, if you have access to a Dragon's lair, as soon as you reach dance with dragons, you win.

Is this not easier than to attempt to beat the AI with your own units at a stat disadvantage?

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

The issue is he wants the game balanced around the difficulty he plays, instead of playing on a harder difficulty.  If the devs make the game a "maximum challenge" on challenging, then why would we have any harder difficulties?  Up the difficulty one step, the AI gets a small boost to economy, and they will no longer be fielding units equivalent to yours when you are fielding dragons.  Playing with dense resources will almost always be a free win for the player, as the AI does not properly abuse dragons and shard-scaling spells that can one shot armies.

 

I second the challenge to abuse this strategy on expert\expert with dense resources.  Even with save scumming, you would be hard pressed to win this way, and expert is not even an "unfair" difficulty in the sense that the AI gets only minor economic advantages and an ironskin buff on its units, both things a human player can easily overcome by specializing cities and using any semblance of tactics.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Also, somebody deserves a few rounds for "transitive property of dragon slaying."  Brilliant.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you, Bombbr. I have never heard a math joke based on transitivity, I was hoping someone would notice. I was proud of that one all day.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bombbr, reply 28

The issue is he wants the game balanced around the difficulty he plays, instead of playing on a harder difficulty.  If the devs make the game a "maximum challenge" on challenging, then why would we have any harder difficulties?  Up the difficulty one step, the AI gets a small boost to economy, and they will no longer be fielding units equivalent to yours when you are fielding dragons.  Playing with dense resources will almost always be a free win for the player, as the AI does not properly abuse dragons and shard-scaling spells that can one shot armies.

 

I second the challenge to abuse this strategy on expert\expert with dense resources.  Even with save scumming, you would be hard pressed to win this way, and expert is not even an "unfair" difficulty in the sense that the AI gets only minor economic advantages and an ironskin buff on its units, both things a human player can easily overcome by specializing cities and using any semblance of tactics.

 

It isn't about the difficulty as the dragon is unbeateable in all difficulties. It is equally strong in all difficulties, and only the path to reaching it might be more challenging on higher difficulty. However it doesn't in anyway mean that it is balanced, because in higher difficulties, other methods still remain inferior.

 

"they will no longer be fielding units equivalent to yours when you are fielding dragons."

This won't matter because a Dragon with basic fodder units will destroy any army the AI throws at it. (FYI, I play on sparse magic and resources).

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

It will matter, because they will take all the cities where your one dragon isn't, if you even survive to the point of getting dragons with all that "wasted" tech (in the going toe-to-toe with the AI sense) to get to dance with dragons early as you are implying.

 

Why aren't you complaining about the spell of making?  It isn't balanced.  It is a spell that WINS THE GAME.  Your dragons have nothing on that.  If I can get spell of making before the AI can counter it, the issue isn't that the spell of making isn't balanced, the issue is that i am TROUNCING the AI and need to turn up the difficulty.

"It isn't about the difficulty as the dragon is unbeateable in all difficulties."

Please provide a save\videos of you abusing dragons in an expert/expert game with at least 4 AI opponents.  The issue IS the difficulty because rushing dragons is not doable above challenging.  Unless you get really lucky, you will probably not even have access to a dragon lair by the time you get the tech, because you will be defending your last one or two cities with your sovereign.

The AI can beat dragons late game with certain units.  Juggernauts, to name one easy example.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bombbr, reply 32
It will matter, because they will take all the cities where your one dragon isn't, if you even survive to the point of getting dragons with all that "wasted" tech (in the going toe-to-toe with the AI sense) to get to dance with dragons early as you are implying.

 

Why aren't you complaining about the spell of making?  It isn't balanced.  It is a spell that WINS THE GAME.  Your dragons have nothing on that.  If I can get spell of making before the AI can counter it, the issue isn't that the spell of making isn't balanced, the issue is that i am TROUNCING the AI and need to turn up the difficulty.

"It isn't about the difficulty as the dragon is unbeateable in all difficulties."

Please provide a save\videos of you abusing dragons in an expert/expert game with at least 4 AI opponents.  The issue IS the difficulty because rushing dragons is not doable above challenging.  Unless you get really lucky, you will probably not even have access to a dragon lair by the time you get the tech, because you will be defending your last one or two cities with your sovereign.

The AI can beat dragons late game with certain units.  Juggernauts, to name one easy example.

Why am I not complaining about the spell of making? I can turn it off <3

As for expert, aw, I just did it on Hard because of an above comment :(

Juggernauts are instantly K'O'ed by flame breath + tail whip, plus, when combined with player spells, they pose no challenge.

Heres my screenshots of the game. (Hard/Hard/Normal resources)

I haven't had the need to go to war because with my delving into civic trees, I was able to keep up in my military power with the top dog AI by spamming cheap leather troops (btw the AI still are using these). Now that I have these Dragons... well, my power just multiplied infinite times.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/585/legendaryheroes20130523.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img109/585/legendaryheroes20130523.jpg

Had I invested in warfare tech, I would've had to go a few chain troops (metal shortage), and mostly leather troops vs the equivalent from the AI.

Now I got 3 Dragons however, I can easily stomp them on 3 different fronts with a dragon on each front.

Also, note the unrest of my cities, they are all 0% because Henchmen + Commander tree = zero unrest

 

Even if I was in a war, I suspect I would've easily repelled any invasion with my massive production from my 3 main fortresses, and the fact that my units are more or less on par with the enemy's

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

As a Dragon enthusiast, when I think of Dragons, I imagine a creature with very few equals in combat. These things are a mass of magic and physical might far beyond many creatures, they are ancient. I can see a King/Queen's powerful army and a dragon slayer waging war with a Dragon. The army will lose many troops, but given enough perseverance and skill, the dragon's contenders will win.

The way the devs have made dragons in this game correlate extremely well with my views on Dragons.

During the early stages of my current normal difficulty game, in my kingdom's development, there's no way I could have contended with Dragons, I just wouldn't have had the manpower, spell power, or technology to handle such a feat. In relation to what you said Replicators, a Dragon would "wipe the floor" with my army. By the late game though, I'm leaving any dragons that I've gained inside city walls, and decimating opposition on normal difficulty, with an array of golems, archers, mages, heavily armed soldiers, and Heroes.

I'm personally glad that Dragons are as powerful as they are. Yes, I could take what little dragons I have and go to town on an army or two, but my regular troops can efficiently cover many more fronts compared to an "army" of dragons, considering my troops are what dealt with a dragon before gaining one. I guess that's really what I love about this game. I can choose what I want to do on a multitude of levels.


Just my own thoughts on the topic. As davrovana said, "Stardock, please do not nerf dragons, they are good as they are."


Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ray_sloth, reply 34
As a Dragon enthusiast, when I think of Dragons, I imagine a creature with very few equals in combat. These things are a mass of magic and physical might far beyond many creatures, they are ancient. I can see a King/Queen's powerful army and a dragon slayer waging war with a Dragon. The army will lose many troops, but given enough perseverance and skill, the dragon's contenders will win.

The way the devs have made dragons in this game correlate extremely well with my views on Dragons.

During the early stages of my current normal difficulty game, in my kingdom's development, there's no way I could have contended with Dragons, I just wouldn't have had the manpower, spell power, or technology to handle such a feat. In relation to what you said Replicators, a Dragon would "wipe the floor" with my army. By the late game though, I'm leaving any dragons that I've gained inside city walls, and decimating opposition on normal difficulty, with an array of golems, archers, mages, heavily armed soldiers, and Heroes.

I'm personally glad that Dragons are as powerful as they are. Yes, I could take what little dragons I have and go to town on an army or two, but my regular troops can efficiently cover many more fronts compared to an "army" of dragons, considering my troops are what dealt with a dragon before gaining one. I guess that's really what I love about this game. I can choose what I want to do on a multitude of levels.


Just my own thoughts on the topic. As davrovana said, "Stardock, please do not nerf dragons, they are good as they are."


Dragons begin to shine a lot more on higher difficulties, because your troops won't be as able to easily steamrolling the enemy as before. Dragons on the other hand, with their armor negating fireball skill essentially destroys most of their army in first turn of combat. Regardless of difficulty.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Replicators, reply 35


Dragons begin to shine a lot more on higher difficulties, because your troops won't be as able to easily steamrolling the enemy as before. Dragons on the other hand, with their armor negating fireball skill essentially destroys most of their army in first turn of combat. Regardless of difficulty.

I don't think I'll be "Steamrolling" expert AI, much less insane AI difficulty, anytime soon. In one of my earlier games on Insane difficulty I didn't even come close to researching Dance with Dragons, I was dealing with massive numbers of enemy forces and wound up getting crushed by one of the middle-strength factions. To have a Dragon on my side would be an incredible reward and enhance my kingdom further , exponentially, if I were to continue surviving and gain more aid from Dragons. There in lies a reasonable strategy and a perfectly sound one to me. I don't really see how it's overpowered, it's a Dragon.

Granted, I'm TERRIBLE with higher difficulties. My logic is that I shouldn't have to deal with standard gameplay degradation, because of a non-standard gameplay oddity. Another way I can expand on this logic is by emphasizing ways of empowering the weakest aspects of a game. (You have a powerful Dragon, then introduce powerful magic, entrapment capabilities, equipment, things suited/specialized for Dragon slaying. There's no way that the Titans couldn't contend with Dragons. For a time, Titan power was absolute. Instead of simply degrading the statistics of a Dragon unit, fuel the story, enhance the gameplay, branch out and expand the roles that we might choose to play. I recall someone working on a faction consisting entirely of Dragons during and after the Elemental: War of Magic game release. The inclusion of specialized Dragon Slaying factions and/or equipment isn't far fetched.