I am new to the forum, but does anyone else think making disruption matrix like a mobile disruptor nanites  is a little strange

Well they do both have the word "disrupt" in them.   Why shouldn't disruption matrix also disrupt antimatter and shield generators and self repair systems?

lol there is your problem, you never faced a full strength Vasari fleet yourself (singleplayer is vastly different from playing against skilled players, even if you play against friends)!! There are no more questions on my side..

Sure it is, if you played on ICO you would understand, I'm not an idiot to slaughter myself on an Orkulus just to catch a Vorastra that has even left the neighbouring grav well..

@Timmaigh, I complain about the Vorastra because the strongest race has it, brutal firepower of this ship, funny mobility, and the brutal uberness of Vasari, so maybe you should read again what AresIV wrote, he is right, and these are the opinions of skilled ICO players who are not loving Vasari because of it's OP-ness. Personally I don't play them for this fact------>

Vasari doesn't need the same skill level as the other 2... Sure it needs some, but..

Noone wants to take away unique Vasari stuff, but as long as Vasari is this unbalanced we will be "bitching" about stuff. You must understand us, it is NOT FUN to see a Vasari going unstoppable, and no other race can do it..

@Timmy

First of all i love our discussions!

Secondly i dont understand why you care so much  as it doesnt affect your non-comp non-ICO experience. Obviously they are NOT going to remove any race abilities or anything like that, stop worrying about mobility removal (?!) . What we are asking for is numbers nerfs, less PM damage etc... It would literally have 0 effect on your single player experience ( Vasari will still be grossly overpowered) but at the same time help those that DO play on ICO. You just dont realise how boring mp games are where vasari become so unstoppable 4 players can barely or not at all stop it.

Do you think its more fun to ONLY play vasari? Even games are those that are most fun!

But anyways thirdly and mosty importantly, I was right about WAIL buff to be around 10 Damage during the beta testing!. Please ask me for more balance suggestions!

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 327

Well they do both have the word "disrupt" in them. Why shouldn't disruption matrix also disrupt antimatter and shield generators and self repair systems?

Ive heared that the nanites are a devistating defensive ability, and though i am a Tec loyalist, this just seems to powerful to be used on offense for a defensive faction.

Have you actually used this ability in the beta? Nanites is powerful because of its duration (5 minutes), not its effect alone. Disruption Matrix lasts what, 10 seconds? They are not really comparable, and the Ankylon needed all the buffs it could get.

@ Turchany>

this course of discussion wont lead anywhere. You complained you want the Vorastra die, when you manage to get it to 1000 hullpoints... so i told you to follow it to the neighbouring gravwell and try to finish it off. But then you complained if you do so, you will run into Orkulus, which is going to kill your fleet... we can do this ad absurdum. Now i can tell you to bring a bunch of antistructure cruisers to deal wiith Orkulus, while you finish Vorastra off with corvettes or bombers or whatever else - but i am sure you will again find a reason, why you cant do that. Surely there will be more Vasari carriers there countering your Ogrovs/Adjudicators...and we are at square one.

you are just going to assume the VL player is going to be ready for anything you have, he is always going to have Orkuluses and Carriers anywhere and you just cant do shit. But if that is true, you already lost the game anyway, cause he just economically steamrolled you.

One more thing> do you understand, what incovenient means? It has nothing to do with balance. Its about forcing you to do something you would prefer not do. Clearing mines is quite inconvenient (surely for everyone) and chasing Vorastra can be too. But only cause you would prefer to be no mines at all, so you dont have to clear them (or alternatively have your ships dying to them), does that make them overpowered?

@Jingly> i think i made myself clear. If i saw you lot are content with the current Maw/Desperation nerfs and you just require phase missiles to be nerfed and generally number changes, i would not protest. But Turchany has clearly issue with VL faction as a whole, not just their firepower, but their mobility as well. And that is what concerns me, as that is what i like. 

And yeah i worry how all this may influence the devs. I dont think they are going to remove VL from Rebellion or nerf their mobility to the point of uselessness - they decided to put it into the game once, so they have to go with it now. But i am concerned  what they might think in regard to possible future Sins. They may think for example, well, the PvP players did not want to chase way too mobile titan around, so whooosh, Vorastra/MicroPhaseJump gone. They considered Maw OP, so yep - Maw gone, replaced by something less cooler and deadly. And so on and on - and before you know, everything i like gone....can you guarantee to me, that wont happen?

BTW, i love our discussions too . And FYI i am sorry, for some expressions i am using, like "bitching" for example, i guess it may be considered to be offensive, what is certainly not my intention, i just ran out of synonymes to "complain", hehe,

The real problem with Vorastra mobility that in the highest level of Sins gaming, the skilled team matches online against humans, it is something that is not a balanced thing. I know you find it quite funny, me too in singleplayer where AI cannot use it. But think about if AI could eventually use it well (maybe even with maw), you wouldn't think it's a good stuff that you can't drain it's AM effectively without killing yourself. The solution would be to either decrease the range of jumping, the cooldown of the ability, or the antimatter cost so you can eventually drain it without sacrificing anything.

Well go online and see it for yourself. Skilled Vasari players prepare for retreat I think, if I were one, I would make my Vorastras retreat safe... And try to kill the wounded Vorastra while facing the vasari defenses.. You are likely to die, lose so much the dead Vorastra was not worth it mathematically.. Online Ogrovs are bad.. People focus on them with fighters and corvettes, and drive their orkulus inbetween them... Don't forget we are not playing against the dumb AI or some friends, skilled humans are nothing like that..

You see? Even if Phase Missiles were nerfed, you wont be happy.

Regarding the other thing, here wo go again. So there is going to be both Orkulus and fleet of carriers and corvettes defending it and killing your Ogrovs... Bring your own carriers and corvettes then to protect those Ogrovs while they shoot at the Orkulus... 

If they always have upperhand over you, chances are they are either simply better players than you, or they play on better team than you.

I guess by the time high level Vorastra comes into action, more often than not the PvP game is pretty much underway, perhaps with some players beaten already and one team basically winning. Now if the VL player is on that winning team, he s winning anyway, vorastra or not. If he is on the losing team, the Vorastra is certainly not going to turn the tide of the game. Or are you saying you can go 1v2 or even more with high level Vorastra and win? I can see you can be hard to finish off, but being able to survive longer than anyone else =/= winning, right?

We're looking into the Terran planet bug. This is why we're in beta.

@ARESIV

"

Economic Power rating:

1. TEC

2. Vasari!!!!!

3. Advent"

LAWL you've NEVER touched induced reveranced on advent SB's have you? go check it out and get back to me. makes a bigger difference on giant empires than anything else. also i forgot to mention just how OVERWHELMING advetn culture can get. most people will flat out say im an idiot but advetn BY FAR have the best cannon in the game. 

-10% alliagance on the planet it hits insta gone. PLUS it spreads culture everywhere. PLUS it gives a damage buff the allies. get a couple of these cannons hit planet OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN and watch ru empire melt. advent will simply laugh their a@@ off well u die form culture. granted noone does this online. (besides osan. he knew advent probably better than anyone.

also vasari trade ports take 4 civ labs to get. advent 3 and TEC 2 so VAS are slower to develop ECO wise.

"

There are 2 big flaws in your theory.

First of all... the Vasari are more powerful than the TEC military wise. So it would be actually

Vasari > TEC < Advent < Vasari

Or more obvious:

Military power ranking:

1. Vasari

2. Advent

3. TEC"

first of all i said the TEC ARE RESISTANT to vasari tec. not that they had better military

 also im going to run a test with my friend RIGHT NOW. im going to make a galaxy forge map with all 3 races getting the same planet and we are going to max them out for ECO and see who really is best i am DAMN sure vas is not 2nd place.

also phase missles have had a 30% chance to bypas shield since this game came out WHY is all the crying abotu this happening now? YES i know they are annoying as hell. but i still stand by what i said that they have the best abilties. ill post a recorded game where i beat a TR and i was outnubmerd 5 to 1 in the battle as an advent loyalist simply by using one AMAZING ability on one of my capitol ships.

also. advetn and TEC are GREAT early game vasari are a little lacking but DOMINATE late game.

@urfullofshit as far as I know people have been complaining about PM since the BEGINNING, even during non-rebellion times PM were VERY powerful and made advent shields quite useless.

the advent cannon, while annoying, is easily blocked. Since culture will restore before it can refire(talking culture, not allegiance, but with restored culture you will get your allegiance back) and, if you don't have atleast 1 Culture building at all your planets while fighting advent(who is playing with his cannons) you are doing something wrong anyway IMHO(Especially as TEC). And any planet that you lose to the cannon can be repopulated within a minute generally, so not a real problem.  

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is it intended that uncolonized planets have city light textures in 1.5? I've seen this on all planet types, not just Terrans.

Probably not,

BUT

Ogrovs only deal damage against structures, which makes them entirely worthless in fleet battles. They also need to face the - moving - Orky to launch their missiles. The Orky will move into range and rain death and destruction on them.

Yes, the Ogrovs - sufficient numbers of course - will win in the end. But you just spend a ton of credits and more important, fleet supply on a ship with an extremely limited role.

BTW:

12 Lasuraks:

Credits: 9720

Metal: 1920

Crystal: 1880

Supply: 168

12 Ogrovs:

Credits: 7440

Metal: 1560

Crystal: 1140

Supply: 144

Why not build TEC carriers instead?

12 Percherons:

Credits: 10020  WTF---  more expensive than the Vasari one!

Metal: 1800

Crystal: 1620

Supply: 168

The carriers are superior against starbases, especially against the Orky as they can usually fly ahead of it and so never will get hit.

No doubt, Ogrovs have their places but the Adjucator is an entirely different topic. It is very bad against singular hard structures like starbases, Advent is always better of by building bombers.

And as you all can see here, Vasari carriers dont use more fleet supply than TEC or Advent carriers, besides having significantly more power. They dont cost more, too.

An often overlooked - cool feature- of Sins is that ships accelerate more slowy away from the planet than towards it.

You dont do "some" pre positioning... you line the Titan up to nearly 100 %. And then you Micro Phase Jump

0.5 seconds later you are there.

Now it most cases you have the enemy frigate at point blank range.

Even if not, you can use a order queue to target a frigate approaching from the other side... it will fly right into the trigger arc.

For example:

Queued target                                    MPJ end location with titan pointing upwards 90 degree

Enemy Frigates moving to right ----> Your Titans Maw area                               ---- >                   Enemy frigates moving to right

Even if you give he 20 different fleet orders in 0.5 seconds to save your fleet from the Maw, by the time they execute those new orders abd change direction they are already drawn into the Maw.

Many Titans can more or less instakill frigates. Ever seen an high level Eradica on rampage?

BUT

that is compensated by a slow movement and a high vulnerability to bombers.

Micro Phase Jump makes the Vorastra the only anti carrier Titan in the game.... and with the unlimited Maw before you could just eat the pesky 80 carrier fleet before their bombers even penetrated your shields.

Not to mention that the Disruptor Nanites on the Vasari Phase Missile Platform STILL has FIVE ENTIRE MINUTES DURATION.

Yeah, thats right... Vasaris turret is better than a high level Titan.

5 Minutes.....

No hull regeneration (values easily in the thousands for Titans and capitalships)

No shield regeneration (values easily even higher)

No antimatter regeneration (5 minutes ability disable? FTW.....

Please developers.... nerf that down to 30 seconds or so.... 5 minutes is unbelievable long for an passive ability with this power levels. 

Induced Reverence takes 18 minutes to pay itself off, on a maxed out population terran planet.

And even after that, you would make more money by building a trade port on your starbase.

Allegiance is cool, but even if you consider raised extraction rates and not just taxes, trade is superior, not to mention, much cheaper as it normally does not require an very expensive starbase.

It is entirely possible to have a competive economy without trade in the early stages of the game, so the additional lab requirement for Advent and Vasari are meaningless.

What however is very important, is the fact that TEC have many powerful trade upgrades and so have Vasari.

That means that TEC with a trade route of 10 trade ports will earn more money than Vasari with a trade route of 10 trade ports and Vasari will still earn considerable more than Advent with a trade route of 10 trade ports.

Advent dont have any trade upgrades, and so they have a notable weaker economy from the time trade ports are being constructed.

Vasari have the very good COMBINED extractor upgrades, and scouts for capturing neutral extractors.

All of that, makes their eco considerable better than Advent one.

Yes, and now the Deliverance Engine is not a joke weapon anymore.

It now can do some long term economic damage, because your enemy must scuttle some of his money printing trade ports for culture centers.

But compared to Vasari "My fleet at your homeworld + stripping your homeworld" it just pales in comparsion.

Advent dont have trouble with TEC.

Advent have trouble with Vasari.... and said trouble is well beyond what is good for an equally balanced game.

Advent vs TEC is mostly balanced by TEC having the economy to wage a multi front war (which will ruin Advent synergies) and to accept a loss ratio of 2: 1 and still be on the winning side.

True... Vasari have a somewhat slower start in comparsion..... but they have the Orky for early defense and it is a murderous one, mind you.

And after the early game, they become equal to TEC and Advent, and then they become significantly more powerful.

Probably. Terrans have always had that, I guess they figured other planet types would have cities already as well.

OK, I guess considering the lore regarding "uncolonized" planets it makes sense, but it was a bit disconcerting nonetheless.

The population is there, it's just not encouraged(Read: Enslaved) yet to your cause! 
I must say that, I have for the first time zoomed in on the terran/dwarf planet textures and they look amazing! Other planets will come when I find a random map where those are included and remember to look at them while blowing up spaceships.  

You can always use the map designer in game to quickly look at whatever planets you want to...

But then it wouldn't be as special  :&#39;(  I'll just look at em tonight in my random map...Surely I must get atleast 1 of each in a random map. 

WoW ... the Vasari is like a ninja bigfoot! 

Well. that is the point - the Ogrovs are single purpose units, which counters the starbases (and structures in general) HARD. Harder than carriers, as you can see for yourself - they are not only more cost-effective (7440 to 10020), but can destroy the starbase way faster than the carriers. Not to mention you dont have to micromanage the battle, run circles around gravity well while the bombers do their job. You can pretty much leave Orkulus come toward the Ogrovs, if will be down before it can destroy just few of them.

So in other words single-purpose nature of Ogrovs is a trade-off, its not useless like you make it look it is. 

Regarding Adjudicators, well its not Vasari´s fault those are shit, it is? They could use a buff, or more precisely they would be better working exactly the same as Ogrovs. The devs clearly wanted them to be different to make the factions more asymmetric, which is usually great and i am all for it, but in this particular case it IMHO does not work. 

In regard to Maw, your example sounds good on "paper", but its not exactly that easy in reality. I did it enough time to know, when the targets are moving, it can become fairly unreliable. If you shoot for perfect execution, to kill the majority of targets/all of them,  usually you have one single shot at it and your timing has to be perfect. There is a factor of "luck" in the whole thing, you dont kill 80 carriers every single activation, there are too many variables present and i dont think you cant deny that. And BTW, if someone keeps his 80 carriers clusterfucked in a single place, he kinda deserves them gone.

Bottom line, as i said, i accepted the Maw nerf and there is no need to discuss it any further. But i dont want Vorastra to be tampered with beyond that any further (where i happen to disagree with Turchany). I think MPJ is just fine, as its there to work in addition to Maw, without it Maw would be just pointless, impossible to pull off, unless you jump your Titan right into the fleet of frigates on the edge of gravity well (jump meant as from other gravity well). It would be only different, if Maw was not a targeted ability and worked the same as Dissever or Chastic Burst. And finally the Vorastra´s frontal firepower bigger than of Ragnarov.... well Vorastra does not have Snipe or Unity Mass in addition to its regular weapon output, does it? Nor can it rapidly heal itself the same way Kultorask or Ankylon do. So there is clearly reason why it is the way it is.

A ninja Bigfoot that eats planets in this case.

Can anyone confirm the VL is THAT overpowered he can go solo against 3-4 other players with full fleets and win? Because i find it hard to believe.

While i DO think Turchanye is exaggerating quite a bit in his posts, he is unfortunately right. I have seen Grimm take on 4 fleets ( we are talking big carreirs fleets, max lvl 4+ cap fleets etcc) and almost win vs decent players. It is a given that vasari will 8always* win 1v2 and 1v3 fights can swing either way. Normally it would require and eco vasari to win 1v3 but depends on the map a bit as well. I was in a game recently vs doci and it ended up 3v1 and it was a close game in the end which he barely lost. For example my lvl 8 Eradica died to PMs before it could reach gravity well and jump, it was full hp/shields before his fleet jumped in.

Taking the upcoming patch in consideration and Desperation FIX*( note NOT nerf as corvettes are designed to be titan counter) and balancing out of Maw i think VL titan is fine. Yes it has Jump and very very high HP but that is offset by lack of insta nuke which makes it a bit more unique from other titans.

At this point in time id like to see how new patch will play but we still want PM numbers nerf to make it just a bit more balanced late game.