[.80] Hero abilities have too many filler choices

The general choices - except for the Potential line - are fairly good. You get something for each pick that will make a difference - initiative, attack, hit points, the ability to equip four accessories.

Potential is a problem because of the nature of what it is. Taking all three gives +60% experience. The problem isn't that these are filler, but that they are so good that not taking them in some ways makes your champions weaker in a longer game. A trait that boosts XP is not very exciting, however, and by taking it you're deferring picking cooler traits for the sake of hopefully gaining traits faster. I wonder if this would be better off with only one or two traits instead of three - or replaced with something else.

An example of what I mean by filler choices is:

Endurance I (10 hp) -> Chain Mail Proficiency -> Brute (+3 attack vs. lower level) -> Enmity (+25% attack vs. opponents of opposite race) -> Plate Mail Proficiency

This tree is three different things. Endurance gives you more hit points, brute and enmity boost your attack power conditionally, and chain and plate proficiency give you the ability to wear armor. I can't see any clear theme that links these traits together as a group. 

I kind of wonder if Brute and Enmity would work better as general picks, and the chain could be Endurance -> Chain -> Plate, meaning that to wear plate, a warrior champion wouldn't have to invest five picks. Three picks is still a decent amount, but it gives you more freedom to pick things that may work better with your playstyle, like the bonuses to particular weapons and/or maneuvers. I am not really addressing the branching traits from this tree at the moment because I mostly want to get the basic idea across.

There are some cool abilities in the warrior tree, but it seems that access to those can get deferred for the sake of being able to wear better armor or get more xp.

I wanted this to be a more comprehensive thing covering all the trees but I am currently in too much pain to properly focus. 

I think there are also issues with mages, specifically in that I find that I don't use them for much once I cast a few spells, and I have to choose between high initiative weapons so I can cast a defensive buff or a fireball or something early on, or low initiative ranged weapons if I want to do something other than cast a few spells and then let the rest of the units finish the battle. It also seems that some spells have a longer cast time than is really warranted by their effects - there's a fire spell that has a cast time of two that damages every unit on the battlefield. Compare to Dirge of Ceresa, which has no casting time, although deals its damage over time. I am not saying the fire spell (flame wave) needs to be instant, but that the cast time of 2 seems a bit high for the damage dealt, as compared to Dirge of Ceresa.

There's another issue in that ranged weapons for champions have the same effect on initiative for champions as they do for regular units. Of course, regular units can have up to six members, each firing its own bow, crossbow, or staff. The initiative reduction seems balanced in this regard because otherwise ranged units would probably be dominant in ways that make melee pointless. With champions, however, they're getting the same penalty, but only dealing a fraction of the damage. I am not sure what to suggest with this, and it is an issue that doesn't seem to be as big of a problem with melee weapons - possibly due to the smaller initiative hit (or no initiative hit) for melee weapons. 

 

21,534 views 5 replies
Reply #1 Top

Does potential III give 25% or 60%?  How do these percentages stack?  Whats the breakeven for them?  I hate potential, reminds me of learning skills in eve online, they were universaly hated there by all except a few crazies that wanted to compete in  how many skillpoints they had.

Reply #2 Top

I was adding potential I (15%) + potential II (20%) + potential III (25%). 

Reply #3 Top

An example of what I mean by filler choices is:

Endurance I (10 hp) -> Chain Mail Proficiency -> Brute (+3 attack vs. lower level) -> Enmity (+25% attack vs. opponents of opposite race) -> Plate Mail Proficiency

This tree is three different things. Endurance gives you more hit points, brute and enmity boost your attack power conditionally, and chain and plate proficiency give you the ability to wear armor. I can't see any clear theme that links these traits together as a group. 

I kind of wonder if Brute and Enmity would work better as general picks, and the chain could be Endurance -> Chain -> Plate, meaning that to wear plate, a warrior champion wouldn't have to invest five picks. Three picks is still a decent amount, but it gives you more freedom to pick things that may work better with your playstyle, like the bonuses to particular weapons and/or maneuvers. I am not really addressing the branching traits from this tree at the moment because I mostly want to get the basic idea across.

Yeah, the path trees are too long and the new abilities have too many prerequisites. Enmity is one of the worst abilities in the game in my opinion, because it is VERY situational AND it is a prerequisite of plate mail proficiency.

Reply #4 Top

The Potential traits, at least in FE, stack by adding the percentages, rather than multiplicatively or by replacement. So Phaedyme's 60% bonus is correct, unless the stacking was changed in LH. Another thing to note is that ALL experience bonuses stack this way, so if you have Potential III and Trainer I on some champion, and Trainer I on another champion in the same army, you'd get +80% experience on the first champion and +20% experience on the second (I think, anyways - it has been a while since I last checked to see if multiple champions with Trainer increased the experience bonus).

As far as what the break-even point is? When did you get Potential? How far up the Potential line did you go? What type of champion are you building? What types of enemies are you facing? Do you have lots of monster lairs, roaming monsters, and quests available, or are you stuck fighting AI factions? All of this is going to impact whether or not the experience-boosting traits are worthwhile to you. These questions essentially add up to "at what level do you think your champions will stop if you don't take the +experience traits?" If your answer is around level 10, then probably none of the +experience traits are worthwhile unless your champion gets a good level-dependent damage bonus. On the other hand, if your answer is around level 20, getting every +experience trait is probably a decent idea.

Spellcasters whose primary damage spells deal level-dependent damage get more out of the Potential line, Knowledge, and Trainer than do most other champions. For this type of spellcaster, I'd sooner take the Potential/Trainer/Knowledge traits than any other traits aside from Evoker I/II/III, and possibly Prodigy depending on what other spells I'm using. For most other types of champions, though, I'd only really take Potential and Knowledge if the champion was low-level, and I probably wouldn't take all the Potential traits. I might go for the Trainer traits, just to make the army better over-all, though.

In FE v1.32:

Champion Level. Experience to next level / total experience required for current level

  1. 10 / 0
  2. 22 / 10
  3. 37 / 32
  4. 54 / 69
  5. 74 / 123
  6. 97 / 197
  7. 122 / 294
  8. 150 / 416
  9. 181 / 566
  10. ?215 / 747
  11. ?251 / 962
  12. 292 / 1213
  13. 335 / 1505
  14. 381 / 1840
  15. 429 / 2221
  16. 481 / 2650
  17. 536 / 3131
  18. 594 / 3667
  19. 655 / 4261
  20. 719 / 4916
  21. 786 / 5635
  22. ??? / 6421

I'm not sure about the required experience to level up at levels 10 and 11, and I don't know the required experience to raise the level of a level 22 champion, but if these numbers weren't changed for LH, you can use this to make your own decisions about when the experience-boosting traits are worthwhile.

Also, it seems that the required experience to the next level follows a curve similar to

        exp_for_lvlup = 0.004*cur_lvl^3 + 1.306*cur_lvl^2 + 7.915*cur_lvl + 1.033

at least for levels 1 through 21 in FE v1.32.

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