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Yes, there are monsters in the world

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Yes, there are monsters in the world

from JoeUser Forums

Recently I was involved in a discussion regarding the two Boston Marathon bombers.  It started off with someone expressing concern about the amount of anger and hatred being directed towards the bombers.

I am dismayed and afraid about the amount of hate and vengeance for the two who planted the bombs. It is spreading the attitude of vengeance in our country. I saw a quote from Ghandi this morning which I have not verified, but it struck me as true. "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind". What is the difference between those two and us wanting to kill them?

This comment launched a discussion that had one side advocating that we should try to understand – show “empathy” towards how people could become so “disenfranchised” that they would commit such violent acts?  They also argued that it was unhealthy for us, as a society, to feel so much anger, hate and a desire for vengeance against the perpetrators.

I disagree.

We have the ability to indulge ourselves in this discussion precisely because we live in a civilization that instinctively and actively removes the monsters from society. We should be thankful that the instinctive emotion by our society is anger, disdain and hate towards these monsters and not empathy or compassion.

A civilization that frets too much on whether it's acceptable to dehumanize monsters has little expectation to survive in the long-run. It only took two monsters to shut down Boston. And I think we all know that there are many many edge cases out there that could become such monsters.  Our civilization could be severely disrupted by a handful of individuals like the Boston Marathon bombers.  We should show no tolerance whatsoever for individuals that act in this way.

Therefore, as a society that seeks to survive, we should absolutely show the maximum amount of disdain, disgust and contempt for human beings to engage in such behavior. We should absolutely make it clear that people who engage in this act are so loathed that we no longer even think of them as human but rather as animals, vermin, and monsters. We so reject their actions that we figuratively have kicked them out of our species.

I think it's intellectually facile to argue that it's somehow "wrong" to dehumanize human beings like this. At best, it's the result of not thinking through the consequences of what would happen if a significant plurality of our society showed an ounce of compassion or empathy towards these kinds of monsters. And at worst, it's simply indulging in feel-good sanctimonious back patting (i.e. "Look at me, I'm an intellectual because I imagine that intellectuals are above feeling 'negative' human emotions).

If we want to keep our society, we better hope that people continue to think of human beings that would seek to destroy them as monsters, vermin, animals and worse.  “What is evil?” someone asked. Pointlessly and indiscriminately murdering innocents who were there to support loved ones participating in an event that celebrated excellence. That’s evil.

Just my 2 cents.

645,011 views 176 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Kabelera, reply 45
“... Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
End of Kabelera's quote

This is one of the  greatest Yoda quotes and we should live by it. Fear is also the path to the dark side of the force so if we fear then we would be willing to do everything to resolve it-even the darkest of things. We would essentially become the enemy ourselves.

 

I just want to let everyone know that it is impossible to stop the death of innocents so do not fear death but accept it (I think this was yoda too). What we should do is advance forward, improve our prevention system and network. This could take 100, 1000 or even millions of years before we reach Vorlon (Babylon 5) standards.

The problem with society is the scope in which we see things, how we look forward and to what extent. We should fight to survive but not become evil in the process. In time we will find all those responsible but more will take their place if they are served justice or if they die. Theres no stoping the cycle of life--this is how it should be--this is the learning curve that the heavens set for our race.

You have to understand that in our life time we cannot solve this by vengeance because innocent people will still die. If you do it out of the satisfaction of revenge then you are no better and we should not fear death and refuse it-it will happen. We must rise to the challenge to fight evil not with evil but with logic, order and compassion.

 

Reply #52 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I think it's a safe bet to say....Yoda wasn't real.

When looking for 'direction' in life's philosophy it's probably wise to avoid popular [crap/childish] fiction ...;)

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Polistes, reply 50
Because a land invasion would have killed millions of men, women, and children all indoctrinated to die for teh emperor.
End of Polistes's quote

Posting sources like CNN, that use unnamed government officials as their source, I can see why you are so misinformed. CNN is nothing but a government propaganda broadcaster. It is NOT "according to the the surviving suspect", it is not even by someone that will show their face.

 

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

Why the Atomic Bombings Could Have Been Avoided
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html 

No fancy background effects or semi-hot dimwits reading government prepared statements for you, but give it a try.

 

Reply #54 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I think all this WW2/A-bombs and Pearl are all just a little bit off track.

The OP is referencing the 'morality' or lack of...of the bombers in Boston.

It's probably better to stick a little closer to that...;)

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top

While I agree subjects should stay on track to the OP, I disagree that this is that far off track. US foreign policy is at the heart of the matter and most likely the root cause of all recent terrorist actions. But I can see why most want to use a single band-aide to cure leprosy.

Reply #56 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting myfist0, reply 55
I disagree that this is that far off track.
End of myfist0's quote

It's far enough off...as it's an entire whole world of potential argument.  Example...I can add... more bombs were dropped on Darwin in one attack than anywhere on US soil ever...and there were 202 such attacks....and I have/had an uncle who 'survived' Changi ...so I know exactly what the real world was like at the time.

So...instead...let's all get back a bit more on topic....;)

Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 52

I think it's a safe bet to say....Yoda wasn't real.

When looking for 'direction' in life's philosophy it's probably wise to avoid popular [crap/childish] fiction ...
End of Jafo's quote

 

Crap jafo says- crap that's logical and morally correct and that has inspired millions for being a strong foundation to live by. I think the only crap childish fiction flying around is lifes philosophy being based on crap ideology of dead symbols long dead.

 

I think its safe to say that Science fiction is a strong foundation for the future of man kind-not people who tarnish its validity which shows just who is afraid when they say they need  direction and not to take lifes philosophy from scifi characters who make sense.

 

Which begs the question: Who is right and who is wrong? Are scifi characters wrong and are real people right? Philosophy is dogma and people believe that.

 

Quoting Jafo, reply 19
SHE was a good person. SHE deserves compassion. These animals do not, not in any shape or form. They can rightfully rot in hell.
End of Jafo's quote

 

Apologies but you won't win thinking like this. As much as I want to nuke some corners of this planet and call it retribution I don't because I don't want that other part of me taking over. Bloody thirst vengeance is delightful, amazing, gives a rush and satisfaction that showed them that there should be balance: Eye for an Eye.

In the end you will just loose.

You cant win because you become a bad-good always wins even if it takes a millennia but we have learnt a lesson and should try our best to find and prevent these people from doing it again. We may fail but so what...

 

Edit:

End the sins story with the advent destroying the Tec in an act of vengeance and Vasari destroying the advent in an act of survival-- the aliens destroying the vasari, the universe imploding and destroying the rest.

 Retribution, vengeance, deserved punishment and a sinful end. Awesome!!!

Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 56
I can add... more bombs were dropped on Darwin in one attack than anywhere on US soil ever...and there were 202 such attacks....and I have/had an uncle who 'survived' Changi
End of Jafo's quote

Can't argue with that piece of history.  O:)  Can't say as much for the other comments I responded too.

 

I agree, Yoda rocks. And threads like this need a little levity sometimes.

Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm sorry to hear about your loss of a loved one Jafo.

Reply #60 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting myfist0, reply 49
End of myfist0's quote

Bullshit ... I think you are forgetting the invasion of russia and china before hand, how about you stop taking snippets off the nutter press and read a bit of history yourself.

 

Reply #61 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

.... aaaand the thread is going.... going................. goooooooooone.

 

I have a stated policy of avoiding involvement in this sort of borderline-conspiratorial rhetoric. There's just no way to win such an "argument".

Reply #62 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 61
I have a stated policy of avoiding involvement in this sort of borderline-conspiratorial rhetoric. There's just no way to win such an "argument".
End of Scoutdog's quote

Yes, it's a bit that way...hence my reluctance to be wandering down the no-nukes path.

Afterall it was Frogboy himself who requested this forum section remain free from 'politics' [primarily of the contentious kind].

His OP is about something akin to what Newt said in Aliens .... re 'monsters' ....;)

 

 

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't understand the apologist for our enemies.  We are terrible for dropping the bombs on Japan, but when Japan bombed us...it was our fault. When the terrorist kill thousands in attacks all over the world, it's our fault.  Really?  We may not be perfect, but the Japanese were fucking monsters to their enemies for a decade before they attacked us.  Look at what these Islamic fascist fucks do to the women in their nations, how they treat their own people. Fucking hypocrites to apologise for them and then say America is to blame due totheir economic policies.   Have the balls to point out monsters when you see them instead of blindly defending everyone but America.

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

Perfectly in agreement with the OP.

If you can't live by the most basic rules of society, you need to be removed from it. PERMANENTLY. With any means necessary.

A solution like the Prison City of "Escape from New York" would work for me as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #65 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Quoting mastroego, reply 64

Perfectly in agreement with the OP.

If you can't live by the most basic rules of society, you need to be removed from it. PERMANENTLY. With any means necessary.

A solution like the Prison City of "Escape from New York" would work for me as well.
End of mastroego's quote

 

Nah, the Los Angeles one would be much better, surrounded by water. :)

Reply #66 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Alstein, reply 24

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14

and personally, I believe in due process and not summary execution by cop or mob.

Is anyone suggesting they not get a trial?

Lindsay Graham for one.  He pretty much says send them off to Gitmo

 

We have to maintain our standards, or we get blights like Gitmo, which is the biggest stain on America's honor since WWII, and with much weaker justification than what we did during WWII.  (I say this as a veteran and someone who for the most part supported the Iraq War)  You also get things like the maltreatment and torture of Bradley Manning.  (he's guilty, but he didn't deserve to be tortured)

 

Yes, we can hate the monsters, but we don't have to become the monsters.   Too many folks seem happy to become the monster.  

 

 

 
End of Alstein's quote

 

 

Most rational post in this thread.  +1

Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top

Had they the bomb in 1944, the Japanese would have used it without hesitation.

Reply #68 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting mastroego, reply 64

Perfectly in agreement with the OP.

If you can't live by the most basic rules of society, you need to be removed from it. PERMANENTLY. With any means necessary.

A solution like the Prison City of "Escape from New York" would work for me as well.

 

 
End of mastroego's quote

 

 

Be careful what you wish for. 

I believe DOC just posted an interesting thread of some additional 'loss-of-freedom/privacy' where 'living by the rules' is the intended goal.   https://forums.stardock.com/443458/page/1/

 

 

 

 

Of course the bombings in Boston were horrific and my thoughts and prayers are with the victims/families.  Should those responsible be punished?  Sure.  Should heightened security and a certain amount of loss-of-personal freedom (as usually happens after something like this) be expected by the population?  Sure, it's inevitable.  However, the most important reaction after such horror should not be vengeance or even the seeking of 'justice' rather the seeking of answers as to why individuals such as those continue to remove themselves from society at large in order to perform such acts.  Only a deeper understanding of same can lead to taking the appropriate actions as individuals and as a nation that which may serve to prevent such actions in the future.

Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting the_Monk, reply 68
However, the most important reaction after such horror should not be vengeance or even the seeking of 'justice' rather the seeking of answers as to why individuals such as those continue to remove themselves from society at large in order to perform such acts. Only a deeper understanding of same can lead to taking the appropriate actions as individuals and as a nation that which may serve to prevent such actions in the future.
End of the_Monk's quote

I'm of the opinion that this is utopian fantasy, at serious odds with reality.  I don't believe any amount of 'understanding' will prevent such actions in the future.  I've seen no evidence for believing otherwise.  Furthermore, there's no way to measure the effectiveness of 'understanding' or anything done as a consequence of 'understanding', to know anything has been thereby prevented.

I understand that certain people are evil and must be dealt with.  The evil should know they will be dealt with if they commit evil.  Fairly, with due process, with a presumption of innocence, but dealt with when confirmed to be evil.  Removing those who have committed evil from the general society, however that is accomplished, is the only way to truly protect it.

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Also, understanding their point of view doesn't mean they have a valid one.  People do evil shit for non valid reasons all the time.  What do you say to a terrorist that want sot kill you because you are not a muslim and/or you believe in liberty or capitalism?  Okay, great you have understanding, so now what?  Going to convert?  Then maybe we have peace!  Oh shit, did you convert to Sunni or Shia?  Either way, someone still wants you dead. I do think that looking at the issue and trying to understand what got us here is important, what both sides did to get us to the point of wanting to kill, but you have to understand that it may mean jack shit in the end.  

Reply #71 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Daiwa, reply 69
I'm of the opinion that this is utopian fantasy, at serious odds with reality. I don't believe any amount of 'understanding' will prevent such actions in the future. I've seen no evidence for believing otherwise. Furthermore, there's no way to measure the effectiveness of 'understanding' or anything done as a consequence of 'understanding', to know anything has been thereby prevented.

I understand that certain people are evil and must be dealt with. The evil should know they will be dealt with if they commit evil. Fairly, with due process, with a presumption of innocence, but dealt with when confirmed to be evil. Removing those who have committed evil from the general society, however that is accomplished, is the only way to truly protect it.

End of Daiwa's quote

 

 

 

I believe my opinion goes to the prevention of such acts.  Prevention is possible, just not in the way many seem to want to go about it.  That is neither utopian fantasy nor at odds with reality.

I don't believe one must wait for misbehavior in order to correct the potential for it.  There are always things we as individuals and as nations can 'do better'.  The focus can be that of 'policing' or that of 'peacekeeping'.  The resulting societal structure/rules and the enforcement of same can only be aided through 'understanding'.

 

Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting the_Monk, reply 71
I don't believe one must wait for misbehavior in order to correct the potential for it.
End of the_Monk's quote

Too 'Minority Report' for me.  But then you Canucks have criminalized opinions (hate speech) - no real barrier to criminalizing 'thought' or 'leanings'.  Or 'treating' 'pre-criminals'.

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting myfist0, reply 53


Quoting Polistes, reply 50Because a land invasion would have killed millions of men, women, and children all indoctrinated to die for teh emperor.

Posting sources like CNN, that use unnamed government officials as their source, I can see why you are so misinformed. CNN is nothing but a government propaganda broadcaster. It is NOT "according to the the surviving suspect", it is not even by someone that will show their face.

 

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

Why the Atomic Bombings Could Have Been Avoided
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html 

No fancy background effects or semi-hot dimwits reading government prepared statements for you, but give it a try.

 
End of myfist0's quote

 

Posting links to IHR, an incredibly racist holocaust denial site is of course much worse than posting a link to CNN.

Reply #74 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Daiwa, reply 72


Too 'Minority Report' for me.  But then you Canucks have criminalized opinions (hate speech) - no real barrier to criminalizing 'thought' or 'leanings'.  Or 'treating' 'pre-criminals'.
End of Daiwa's quote

 

I am merely suggesting the success of prevention (ie. correcting misbehavior potential) is largely influenced by focus on one or the other, policing or peacekeeping.  We can all make a difference as a small part of the collective whole.  If one can keep the peace while correcting behavior shouldn't that be the desired approach?  It is in how we treat that 'criminal intent' that we make a difference.  Therein lies the need for 'understanding'. 

Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top

We understand what they're trying to do and then we stop them from doing it.  We don't alter ourselves to fall in their line with their corrupted worldviews.