Weapons, Weapon Types, Damage, Nulls, Mitigation, and Armor.

And figuring out this whole mess!

I am bringing this up, because there seems to be some MAJOR confusion on exactly how Weapons work in Sins, and how they do Damage, and how the Damage is calculated, and spread out. Plus how Shield Mitigation, and Armor is "supposed to work". I would hope that Rebellion Dev's jump in to confirm, or deny any of this.

This subject was covered years ago in Original Sins topics, but all of the relevant topics seem to be lost in limbo. So we will go over again what we know about (or at least what I know about), and confirm, or dismiss what is true, and what is not. Perhaps even learn something new.

First i will go over what "I" know about weapons. I am not going to claim that i know "everything". However, Some of what i know has been confirmed by Dev's years ago. If it has changed since Original Sins i don't know. AFAIK all weapons work the same way in OS, Entrenchment, Diplomacy, and Rebellion. Nothing has changed AFAIK in any version of sins on how weapons work.

I will cover Damage first, and use the SoA 2 mod as an example. We all know that ships have Front, Back, Left, and Right firing arcs. They cover a full 180 degrees per arc (plus a full 180 degrees up, and down on the z axis). This is hardcoded, and we can't change that. Where all of the confusion begins is "how do these weapons distribute the damage".

(Edited for correction) It was previously thought that each weapon null distributed damage individually, but that information turned out to be FALSE! The weapon nulls are for cosmetic purposes only. You can have as many nulls up to the weapon null limit as you want, but they have NO EFFECT on the weapons damage for that firing arc. It was thought that if a ship had 4 nulls in the forward arc that each bank was a null. It turns out the the Forward bank is exactly that. Just the forward firing arc. The number of nulls in that arc determine how many particle effects show, and where they fire from. The damage the weapon does is totally separate, and determined by the damage number in the bank.

Other entry's you will see for the weapon type is:

PreBuffCooldownTime 11.310000
    CanFireAtFighter TRUE
    SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
    PointStaggerDelay 0.480000
    TravelSpeed 0.000000
    Duration 0.510000
    fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
    WeaponEffects
        weaponType "Beam"
        burstCount 1
        burstDelay 0.000000
        fireDelay 0.000000
       

PreBuffCooldownTime: This is pretty self explanatory. It is how long the weapon must cool down between shots. It also effects how much damage over time the weapon does. Shorter cool downs mean more DPS. While longer cool downs mean less DPS.

CanFireAtFighter: Again is self explanatory. True, or False. It determines if this weapon type can shoot down fighters, or not. In SoA 2 All Phaser's can fire at fighters, and every faction has a weapon type that can shoot down fighters. In Vanilla Sins Flak Frigates, and Titans have weapons flagged TRUE.

SynchronizedTargeting: Once again self explanatory. (Edited for correction) this determines if the weapon particle effects focus on one area of the target mesh, or on multiple areas on the target mesh. It is a just a cosmetic thing.

TravelSpeed: The speed at which a projectile, or missile effect travels. Beam weapons are always zero.

Duration: How long the weapon will fire (beam, and projectile). In a missiles case how long it will stay on the map. If it goes over the duration it will disappear, and do no damage.

fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire": I never messed with this. So i am not sure what it does. All weapons i dealt with had the "CanAlwaysFire" entry.

weaponType: Self explanatory. Beam, Projectile, Missile, PhaseMissile.

burstCount: This entry is for cosmetic purposes Only! It determines the number of weapon particle effects that are shown when the weapon fires. For example if the number was 3 then the weapon would fire 3 effects, or if 6 then 6 effects. The number of effects, or what kind of effects have absolutely nothing to do with how much damage the weapon does. The weapon will do the same damage if 1, or 100 effects are present. In a beam weapons case it is always 1.

burstDelay: Again for cosmetic purposes only! It determines how long each particle effect takes to show up after the 1st particle effect fires.

fireDelay: I never messed with this line. I am assuming it is cosmetic for the particle effects also.

Ability's effect how much damage weapons do after they are Buffed, or Debuffed by said ability. A weapon never misses in Sins. With the exception of missiles if they go over their duration (or you phase jump before they hit you). So this determines how much damage a weapon will do after said buff, or debuff.

Shield Mitigation as far as i know was created, because if it didn't exist then Vanilla Sins ships would "instapop" because of fleets "Focus Firing" on a single ship. From what i gather the more DPS is inflicted on a ship the higher Shield Mitigation becomes, and negates that damage. Giving small frigates somewhat of a fighting chance in a huge fleet battle. I do not fully understand how it works. In SoA 2 we toned down the Mitigation big time, because unlike Vanilla Sins where the ships stand still, and let themselves get shot up by focus fire. SoA 2 ships use dynamic movement, and fire at multiple targets. Very rarely will you see SoA 2 ships "Focus Firing". If we left the mitigation as it was the battles would take forever, and become stalemates. I would like more information as to exactly how Shield Mitigation is supposed to work.

Armor as far as i know also negates some damage (which becomes higher as you research more), but it is a fixed number. Unlike Shield Mitigation which changes, and becomes higher as more ships fire on a single unit. Again i would like more information as to exactly how this is supposed to work.

I am making this topic basically to refresh people memory, and to find out what is, or is not true about this subject. There is some confusion among us, and it will help if we knew exactly how Weapons, Damage, Mitigation, and Armor in Sins worked.

It would really suck if i found out the way i made my weapons in SoA 2 was totally wrong.

 

45,129 views 33 replies
Reply #1 Top


I will cover Damage first, and use the SoA 2 mod as an example. We all know that ships have Front, Back, Left, and Right firing arcs. They cover a full 180 degrees per arc (plus a full 180 degrees up, and down on the z axis). This is hardcoded, and we can't change that. Where all of the confusion begins is "how do these weapons distribute the damage". I am not going to cover specific weapons yet. In general all weapons in sins are pretty much the same in this area. From what i know, and from what the Original Sins Dev's told me is that Each Weapon Null Counts In Distributing Damage. For example in the SoA 2 Sovereigns entity file you will see this for Weapon-0 (the phasers). NOTE: this is not the Sovereigns actual specs. I am just using this as an example.

    DamagePerBank:FRONT 162.400000
    DamagePerBank:BACK 162.400000
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 162.400000
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 162.400000 

The Sovereign has 16 Weapon-0 nulls. 4 in the FRONT arc, 4 in the LEFT, and RIGHT arcs, and 4 in the BACK arc. The Sovereign is supposed to have 2599 points total Weapon-0 damage. So how the hell did we come up with 162.4 per arc? Simple. We divided 2599 by 16 nulls, because DamagePerBank means Damage Per Null! 162.4 x 16 = 2599! Each firing arc has 4 weapon nulls (banks). So 162.4 x 4 nulls (banks) = 649.6. Which is the total damage that firing arc will do. So 649.6 Times the 4 firing arcs = 2599. This is damage before buff's, debuffs, mitigation, and armor. This is what i learned, confirmed by the Dev's, and this is how we did our balancing in SoA 2. If something has changed since Original Sins i am not aware of it. All weapon types are the same in this respect. The only differences are how they distribute the damage, and i believe that is determined by weapon type. Plus what their "AttackType" is. Example: A Beam Weapon distributes its damage over time. While a Missile Weapon distributes all of its damage at once upon impact. Projectile Weapons distribute their damage the moment they fire. Not when the shells impact. Which is why you will see shield, and health bars drop at the moment the weapon fires. Again this is before Ability's, Buff's, and Debuff's Shield Mitigation, Phase Missiles, and Armor are factored in. I will cover that later.

Your sovereign only does 649.6 total damage regardless how many weapon nulls you give it. Weapon nulls are only effect emitters and don't actually change or modify damage.

As an example the TEC long range frigate has 10 forward facing Weapon-0 null points.

DamagePerBank:FRONT 71.500000

PreBuffCooldownTime 6.500000

This ship does 11 dps to a single unit. With each volley it fires 10 missiles (10 weapon points). The burst count is set to 1 (1 missile per null) with a point stagger delay of 0.15 (spread missile effect out so they don't all fire at once).

+1 Loading…
Reply #2 Top

SynchronizedTargeting: Once again self explanatory. Do you want all of the weapon nulls to focus fire on a single target? or do you want the weapon nulls to fire at different targets within their range, and firing arc individually? True, or False? (Note: THIS backs up Damage Per Null theory).

Synchronized targetting determines if the weapon effects fire at the same spot on the target mesh or shield. If it's false then then the weapon effects can fire at random points on the target mesh or shield. 

This setting does not allow multiple different targets to be fired upon.

Reply #3 Top

If this is true then all of the balancing in SoA 2 is absolutely screwed. We did SoA 2 believing that the damage was per null for years. Why would the dev's say the damage was per null if it wasn't true? Hence the whole point of this topic. To find out what is and is not true.

Reply #4 Top

...

A couple of the starbases had over 100 weapon nulls on them because of all the pointless doubling that was done.  They'd have been one rounding things if this had been the case.

 

I don't know what Dark was doing, he seemed to think the number of nulls mattered in some way too, but the Sovereign was never supposed to have enough damage to kill itself in four salvos.  Ships would blow up so fast in fleet battles that any kind of management would be an exercise in futility.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Major, reply 3

If this is true then all of the balancing in SoA 2 is absolutely screwed. We did SoA 2 believing that the damage was per null for years. Why would the dev's say the damage was per null if it wasn't true? Hence the whole point of this topic. To find out what is and is not true.

Zombie is correct. If it was damage per null every Starbase and titan would be out of control in Vanilla Sins unless their damage was say 5.

The Dev.exe has an entire interface dedicated to weapons damage damage, and I can assure you nulls have no impact on the damage I was expecting. Surely your Ship's DPS on the info card (as imperfect as it is) is no where near 2599 either.

I'm guessing either the Dev who posted didn't know or did not understand exactly what you were asking.

Reply #6 Top

I think i understand what you are saying, and now i know what "should" have been done. (Facepalm) Wow! this was a real eye opener! I've been doing it wrong for years! and I totally stand corrected. The damage for the figures i gave above "should" have been 649.6 per firing arc (162.4 x 4 nulls).

I think i had the right idea by dividing the total damage per null, but i "should" have added all of the nulls "Together" in a firing arc to come up for the damage for that particular firing arc. If the specs above were re-done to 6 nulls in front, 3 left, and right, and 4 in the back. 2599 at 162.4 per null would look like this...

    DamagePerBank:FRONT 974.400000 (162.4x6)
    DamagePerBank:BACK 649.600000 (162.4x4)
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 487.200000 (162.4x3)
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 487.200000 (162.4x3)

Does this seem right?

Psy to this day i STILL have no clue where Darkshimmer got his stats from. Maybe he just winged it as he went along, but it seemed to work well at the time.

Damn. Do i feel stupid now.

Reply #7 Top

I'm going to add in here that it seems when ANTI-MODULE weapons are the "primary" weapon (either the first one listed or the one used for range purposes, idk), the ship will not target anything but structures regardless of the Boolean that says if it can only target structures...

My current mod has bombers using the anti-module weapon type, and they cannot shoot anything other than structures/SBs...

The Orky of course can shoot things that aren't structures, even with it's anti-structure weapons....but they aren't the weapon listed first or the one tied to range so that may be why...

I also would be interested in sitting info/research on the Chance to hit target type modifiers in the gameplay.constants...

As of right now, it seems the chance to hit "interceptor" affects all SCs, the chance to hit bombers does nothing, and I have no idea on the chance to hit capitalship...

It could be that the bomber line isn't used...or, it could be that "bombers" are defined by being unable to target SC (but since they can how could the game differentiate between "bombers" and "fighters")...I really don't know...

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Major, reply 6

I think i understand what you are saying, and now i know what "should" have been done. (Facepalm) Wow! this was a real eye opener! I've been doing it wrong for years! and I totally stand corrected. The damage for the figures i gave above "should" have been 649.6 per firing arc (162.4 x 4 nulls).

I think i had the right idea by dividing the total damage per null, but i "should" have added all of the nulls "Together" in a firing arc to come up for the damage for that particular firing arc. If the specs above were re-done to 6 nulls in front, 3 left, and right, and 4 in the back. 2599 at 162.4 per null would look like this...

    DamagePerBank:FRONT 974.400000 (162.4x6)
    DamagePerBank:BACK 649.600000 (162.4x4)
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 487.200000 (162.4x3)
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 487.200000 (162.4x3)

Does this seem right?

Psy to this day i STILL have no clue where Darkshimmer got his stats from. Maybe he just winged it as he went along, but it seemed to work well at the time.

Damn. Do i feel stupid now.

 

If I get what you're saying, yes. That is indeed Damage per firing bank, the way you had it each bank was doing 162.4 damage each volley regardless of the number of nulls. In fact you don't even need nulls at all for gameplay purposes, the game will just default to he center of the mesh and use it as a weapon point.

I'm guessing most modders don't give a damn about making their ships damage proportional to the number of nulls on each bank, but I guess if you already calculated the damage per bank on all your ships you may as well multiply them out like you did to keep in consistent.

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 7
and I have no idea on the chance to hit capitalship

I think capitalships is used for everything but strikecraft. I can't say I've really tested it though. Corvettes might be an exception, not sure what they use.

Reply #9 Top

The Akira in SoA 2 (entrenchment, and up) had the same issue until we added the "Heavy Cruiser" roletype before the Antimodule roletype. 2 roletypes with antimodule at the bottom will make the ship work, and fire like it should PLUS use its anti module weapons. I am not sure if strikecraft can have more than 1 roletype.

EDIT: Thanks GoFan. If Psychoak didnt already fix it then i got some serious "un-screwing up" to do.

Reply #10 Top

Be careful should you decide just to multiply every damage value in your mod by x nulls. That is going to cause a massive dps leap, and unless you've been noticing battles taking way too long, it may be wiser just to double or triple values globally first. Especially on multi-target weapons. With this system, multi-target weapons multiply in scale and effectiveness with every target. I actually had to reduce target counts on many of my ships just because when certain numbers of ships rammed into each other fleets would just melt.

Reply #11 Top

Yea i will have to play with cool downs, and be more flexible with the actual numbers if they become too OP. With the original values the battles were taking quite a while. Now i know why. I think MyFist0, and Psychoak fixed that issue, because i look at the latest versions and the numbers closely match the update i posted. Which make more sense now that after FIVE years i know what i am doing lol

Reply #12 Top

I think MyFist0, and Psychoak fixed that issue,

psy is in charge of the numbers and balance, he even put in the trial of softimage (before I moved all the scenes from .scn to .exp) to check and redo a lot of the meshpoints on the models. A lot of the meshpoints in your scenes did not match up with what was in the mesh.

 

With all the scenes in .exp, anyone can now edit or inspect. I even imported all the sins models so I can scale and modify. Most of the stock structures are good size, going by levels of windows anyway, some were way off. I did the TEC repair bay and actually saved a few hundred kb on the .bin mesh.

I have a couple XSI projects on the go, but the 2 main ones are SOA-XSI and SoaSE-XSI. SoaSE-XSI now has its own subdomain at xsi.soase.x90x.net so anyone can check my work or how I have the project setup. You can get the TEC reapir bay at 
xsi.soase.x90x.net/Scenes/TEC/PlanetModule_TechOrbitalRepairPlatform/
There are no textures in the project though, either create a "Textures" folder in the main project directory or do what I did and create a virtual link to save HD space. In the CMD window I paste the lines ...

mklink /J "F:\SoaSE-XSI\Textures" "C:\Program Files (x86)\Stardock Games\Sins of a Solar Empire - Trinity\Textures"

or you might use ...

mklink /J "F:\SoaSE-XSI\Textures" "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sins of a Solar Empire Rebellion\Textures"

SoA-XSI is simular

mklink /J "F:\SoA-XSI\Textures" "C:\Users\myfist0\AppData\Local\Ironclad Games\Sins of a Solar Empire\Mods-Diplomacy v1.37\Sacrifice of Angels 2\Textures"

or you might use ...

mklink /J "F:\SoA-XSI\Textures" C:\Users\myfist0\Documents\My Games\Ironclad Games\Sins of a Solar Empire Rebellion\Mods-Rebellion v1.1\Sacrifice of Angels 2\Textures"

just make sure you use the proper paths in place of mine.

Ya, a little off topic but didn't want to start a post for this.  <_<

 

Reply #13 Top

Armor, if what the Sins wiki goes by is correct, effectively reduces the hull damage received in such a way that it can be considered a hull strength bonus. The formula for finding a ship's "real" hull are as follows: Hull * (1+0.05*Armor)

That 0.05 comes from the "HullPointPercentageIncreasePerArmorPoint" value in Gameplay.constants.

Quoting myfist0, reply 10
Quoting Lavo_2, reply 8Means two targets are hit with each receiving 12 damage.

I was not to sure about this point, have you confirmed this?
If so, I may add this to the meshpoints tutorial. 

Yes, I have indeed confirmed this. Put one ship with 2 targets per bank near 2 targets, let them all fire at each other. Both of the targets received damage at the same, or nearly the same, rate. This is part of the reason starbases are so powerful; they can take on multiple targets at once.

Reply #14 Top

Glad to have this stuff clearly set out for everyone, it's amazing the confusion and misinformation thats been going around!

This thread should be stickied IMO

Reply #15 Top

fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire": I never messed with this. So i am not sure what it does. All weapons i dealt with had the "CanAlwaysFire" entry.

https://code.google.com/p/soaseplugin/wiki/RebellionfireConstraintType

fireConstraintTypeCondition

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Wintercross, reply 14

Glad to have this stuff clearly set out for everyone, it's amazing the confusion and misinformation thats been going around!

This thread should be stickied IMO

Well, there's a lot of miss-information in the OP. I wouldn't recommend sticky'ing this in it's current state.

Reply #18 Top

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was not meant to be that way. The whole purpose of the topic is to find out what is true, or false. I am the one that learned something new, because what i posted was the way i did it for years.

I thank all who contributed to find out what is what. I have seen similar information in the tutorial topics, but it was spread out. Thanks for updating the wiki with this information.

Reply #19 Top

That probably sounded harsher than I intended. This topic was great and frankly the best topic on this forum in the last month or so. Unfortunately stickies tend to last forever here so if the main topic wasn't made accurate I'd rather it not be stickied. 

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 7

I'm going to add in here that it seems when ANTI-MODULE weapons are the "primary" weapon (either the first one listed or the one used for range purposes, idk), the ship will not target anything but structures regardless of the Boolean that says if it can only target structures...

very good to know, noticed this when I was messing about with the Arilou Anti-Structure Capital.

fireConstraintType "Research" 

http://pastebin.com/rtjkCjeP is an example of how to have add an anti-strikecraft weapon system to a capitalship or starbase and use the "Research" fire constraint to activate it.  Instructions to add the 4 hardpoints to the mesh are included.  (Don't do this to your vanilla ships, make a mod folder (for newbies... ))

 

 

Reply #21 Top

this is the entry of the PSIBAttleship Radiance, and it appears to contradict with this somewhat. maybe it's time to upgrade or there is already an updated documentation?

 

Weapon
WeaponType "Beam"
damageEnums
AttackType "CAPITALSHIP"
DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
DamageType "ENERGY"
WeaponClassType "BEAM"
DamagePerBank:FRONT 132.300003
DamagePerBank:BACK 0.000000
DamagePerBank:LEFT 0.000000
DamagePerBank:RIGHT 0.000000
Range 4800.000000
PreBuffCooldownTime 7.000000
CanFireAtFighter FALSE
SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
PointStaggerDelay 0.500000
TravelSpeed 0.000000
Duration 4.000000
fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
WeaponEffects
weaponType "Beam"
burstCount 1
burstDelay 0.000000
fireDelay 0.000000
muzzleEffectName "Weapon_Psi_BeamCapital_Muzzle"
muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.100000
muzzleSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
hitEffectName "Weapon_Psi_BeamCapital_Hit"
hitHullEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
hitShieldsEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
beamEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALBEAMHEAVY_TRAVEL"
beamGlowTextureName "PsiCapitalBeam_Glow"
beamCoreTextureName "PsiCapitalBeam_Core"
beamWidth 30.000000
beamGlowColor ffffffff
beamCoreColor ffffffff
beamTilingRate 3.000000

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Dark_Ansem, reply 21

this is the entry of the PSIBAttleship Radiance, and it appears to contradict with this somewhat. maybe it's time to upgrade or there is already an updated documentation?

 

Weapon
WeaponType "Beam"
damageEnums
AttackType "CAPITALSHIP"
DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
DamageType "ENERGY"
WeaponClassType "BEAM"
DamagePerBank:FRONT 132.300003
DamagePerBank:BACK 0.000000
DamagePerBank:LEFT 0.000000
DamagePerBank:RIGHT 0.000000
Range 4800.000000
PreBuffCooldownTime 7.000000
CanFireAtFighter FALSE
SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
PointStaggerDelay 0.500000
TravelSpeed 0.000000
Duration 4.000000
fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
WeaponEffects
weaponType "Beam"
burstCount 1
burstDelay 0.000000
fireDelay 0.000000
muzzleEffectName "Weapon_Psi_BeamCapital_Muzzle"
muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.100000
muzzleSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
hitEffectName "Weapon_Psi_BeamCapital_Hit"
hitHullEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
hitShieldsEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound ""
beamEffectSounds
soundCount 1
sound "WEAPON_PSICAPITALBEAMHEAVY_TRAVEL"
beamGlowTextureName "PsiCapitalBeam_Glow"
beamCoreTextureName "PsiCapitalBeam_Core"
beamWidth 30.000000
beamGlowColor ffffffff
beamCoreColor ffffffff
beamTilingRate 3.000000

 

The original poster was confused in this topic. In turns out he was the one that was wrong. ;)

The things that matter for the actual damage dealt are in bold. Normally it is just all the weapon damage of a bank divided by the rate of fire (Prebuff Cooldown Time). Beams are a bit more complicated, since they deal damage "Overtime", I.e. for the duration of the beam (I think I'm right about this). It will still be 132/7 = 18.85 damage per second, but the damage is spread out while the beam inflicts damage rather than all at once like projectiles or missiles. Usually this only has a minor effect on the total damage however.

Reply #23 Top

thanks. what about cosmetic changes?

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Dark_Ansem, reply 23

thanks. what about cosmetic changes?

Well, naturally pretty much every thing else that was not bolded deals with cosmetic stuff (or sound). Here the number of hard points do count, as the game will spawn a weapon effect from each hard point. So if you have the radiance 18 more beam hardpoints you'd get 20 beams firing per volley.

Reply #25 Top

SynchronizedTargeting matters too, if you have multiple targets per bank. Setting it to TRUE essentially limits that weapon to a single target per bank.