The problem is, that it hasn't just been one thread or even two, there have been many forum threads with subsections that have made serious objections to the efforts of Stardock towards meeting what goals they can for modders.  I understand expectations can't always be met, but sometimes people need to be happy with what they get instead of biting someones head off for not giving them enough.

OK, fair enough. I understand where you're coming from. But from my perspective, mods like Storm World are vital in extending the shelf life of games like FE, which I would have put aside a while ago, if SW hadn't been available.

Also, I think that using the term "entitlement" to label modders is probably not the best choice of words. Do you really want to associate an ethustic segment of your customers with the 47% good-for-nothing lazy bums in the USA who just want to feed off the government?

Sure, I understand that games are a small part of your revenues in comparison to the core business. But if it's such a drag to deal with gamers, then why do it at all?

i like gamers and modders.  Heck, I am a gamer and a modder.  Gamer entitlement is a lot older than the 47% thing.  Like anything, you have to know where to draw the line.  We've been too slow in doing that in the past and tried to be all things to all people.  Modding is great. But it comes at the price of AI and other game features since we can't just hard code things in C++.  

The Stormwind mod is amazing. Mods like that raise morale here. But then you get posts that get sidetracked by modders who, in my opinion, just want the game to be some open game toolset. We didn't sign up for that.  And since most mods haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible, I'd rather put time into e AI.  I could make it so much better if I could specify a particular tech or spell or city improvement in C++.   More people notice a spider webbing a webbed unit than modders who want to extend the underlying ability tshave a "freeze" spell or something.

Actually, I think Frogboy has you in mind when he is talking about entitled users and I can see why. You are constantly dressing your arguments and opinions in a way that you supposedly know what is best for the game and what should be done next.

Frogboy is talking about the hassle with certain aspects of game development and the reception within certain groups of players and you respond with a universal statement disavowing them of being a proper game developer if they don't go along. That's pretty much entitled.

As a paying customer, I am entitled to my opinion. I think that everyone with an opinion, believes in the validity of their opinion, and will "dress it" in such a way to convince others.

And other people on the forum are entitled to disagree with me. That's how it works.

One sided forums where everyone holds hands and sings in unison are nice, but I'd rather have an exchange of ideas (good or bad, or those that I agree or disagree with.)

Frogboy's position is perfectly reasonable.  A game is not a collection of modding tools and a collection of modding tools is not a game.  They are two separate things.  Doing either well is a challenge.  Doing both together is a monstrous undertaking.  Inevitably, there were compromises made in the design of the game and the design of the modding tools that made both a little less perfect than Brad had envisioned.

The thing is, there's always going to be someone to say "the modding sucks" or "the game sucks" depending on their point of view.  It's not a sense of entitlement that makes people vent on forums.  It's just a need to vent some frustration and exasperation (just as Brad did upthread to start this conversation).  You want to make your opinion known and hear what others think on the same subject.

Gamers are always going to want more now now now (even on stardock's fairly composed forums).  Modders are gamers, therefore... 

But please let's not call it a sense of entitlement; having enthusiasm and a feeling of personal ownership isn't a sense of entitlement.  Caring about something isn't a sense of entitlement.

Stardock (and Brad especially) have consistently expressed a desire to listen and interact with the fans of their game.  There's a reason that's a rarity in the gaming world; as Brad said earlier, hearing from your fans is de-motivational.  I don't want Brad to stop interacting on these forums.  But I don't want him to get discouraged, either.

To the point of the conversation: I tend to think that what Brad's saying isn't so much that future games wont be moddable, it's that designing, developing and supporting modding tools wont be a priority for Stardock going forward.  And I am totally OK with that.

that's fine, but I don't consider "if you don't like to deal with gamers, you shouldnt be a game company at all" a viable exchange of ideas.

I can see how someone could read it that way. I could have been more tactful.

But it's a valid question. Is the effort put forth worth the reward?

If I was in Brad's position, and I was using my resources to work on a segment of the business where the margins were thin, or represented a tiny part of the total revenues, I would re-consider whether or not it was worth it.

I think they're doing just fine.

In the meantime, go play one of those great Age of Wonders mods. Oh wait! 

I'm a paying customer too. I have lots of opinions. Unlike you, I don't try to insist that my opinions represent some silent majority. My opinions represent only me, myself and I. 

What makes you seem entitled is that you behave as if your opinions are more important than everyone else's. It's the way you write. Just upthread you implied that Stardock needs to learn to listen to their customers or they'll go out of business. Message received is listen to you or they're in peril.

During the Demigod beta I was one of the loudest critics about the game needing more multiplayer testing. Unfortunately, they didn't or couldn't do what I asked. But I never tried to give my opinion the force of authority like you seem to insist on.

I think rather than having Brad spend a lot of time opening the game up for modders, you should look at a mod manager to do pretty much the same thing.  So then if you want to change just one number in a file somewhere, you can.  Basically, create a mod file format allowing small differences to be merged in as well as entire files.

Although that being said, I don't know how that approach will work with Steam unless you kill the auto-updater with fire, a pointy stick, or beheading.

I never implied my opinion is the only one that matters, or represents a silent majority. I think you'r reading way too much into my posts.

For example, earlier in the thread, most of the posters explicilty commented that shadows weren't a big deal to them.

I did extrapolate the explicit majority on this thread to the customer base. Whether that was reasonable to do or not is a valid point. However to suggest that I made it up and respresented it as my own opinion, is not true.

Listening to customers is  a basic concept that applies to any business. I didn't make that up either...

Stardock is one of the best if not the best at listening to their customers.  You must not have dealt with any other developers at all if you think stardock does not listen to their customer base.  It seemed to me that the postings about the shadows were more of the "shadows are not important to "me" so how dare you delay my beta!"  Entitlement at its finest.

Many years ago, I used to think modding tools and "construction sets" were a must in any game because it meant that the content could theoretically be extended forever for free by talented amateur game designers.  Then I realized that there isn't much fan-created content that's worth the time it takes to download, and suddenly modding tools became much less important to me.

"Listening to customers" doesn't mean giving them every single thing they demand.

Yeah, please don't spend too much time on shadows. I barely notice them regardless, and end up turning them off to maximize framerate and speed...
I believe work on gameplay elements would be better.
But great game, regardless.

Close enough, but I'll take it!

Personally I really LOVE shadows.  

Good shadowing takes a game out of 2D and really brings it into 3D.

Hardcore speed players might turn them off but in games where graphics are prominent they are awesome.

Just my opinion.  I though the shadows in Rebellion were a great touch.

And regarding player opinions...

I thought about how to respond to this for a while.

There have been requests for all kinds of strange tools, there's no denying it. How many times have I read posts about in-game quest editors, or some kind of spore-like monster creator, or even just the ability to edit existing sovereigns/factions?

You guys have held our hands all the way, in my opinion, and that's probably why it stings when the modders aren't always "grateful".

But herein lies the contradiction. FE and E:Wom and FE:LH are built to hold the modder's hand. This is the approach you have chosen. We have no deep function access - UI or scripts. We are limited to the XML data and graphics (3d and icons/textures). It's a sort of mass-market mod access, intended to make it easy to mod but at the cost of functionality. You've chosen a way to let people mod the game that is ironclad - we have no DLL access and no source code is available, literally no way in except active memory.

So what is my point? You say you don't want to hold our hands. We are in agreement - I don't want that either. I want to be set free from the restraints you've placed on modding - the very tools you are so concerned about. But so long as they remain the only way to mod the game, what can I do?

Please stop lamenting the fact that we ask for better tools when the only way to mod the game is through those tools. The modders didn't dig that hole.

If you really want to have your mind blown, your path is clear. Not more tools but more accessibility. And those that make the great mods won't ask for their hands to be held any more, nor did they ever.

Thanks for your considered reply, Heavenfall.  Frogboy, remember how Civ4 gave access to AI and UI functions?  There is no access to AI functions or deep UI access allowed so far in this series.  A big part of the reason FFH2 was so big was because Firaxis had the courage to open up some deep internals to modders.  You can have this courage too.