[Suggestion] Unlock Shard Demons with Wraith Blood

Why?

In my opinion, Wraith Blood is the weakest in the game. It gives you +3 health each time you kill something, but costs you 1 health per level, and might unlock the Zealotry (-1 health per level, +3 initiative) and Hallowed Rite (+3 mana per kill) unit traits. Zealotry means that your units gain no health per level, Hallowed Rite is kind of useful, but only if you make certain that the unit that has it gets most of your kills. Moreover, the Demons unlocked by the Binding faction trait all state that it is only through Ceresa's mastery of Death Magic that they can be created. On top of that, some of them (Burning Wraiths come to mind) suggest that the way they were created ensures that they will never betray Ceresa.

Factions with better blood bonuses get unique unit unlocks (Trogs, with Berserk and +20 Weight Capacity, have Juggernauts; Men, with +10% experience, get Henchmen; Quendar, with a marginally helpful +50% fire resistance and -50% cold resistance, get slaves; Ironeers, with increased spell resistance and +1 health per level at the cost of increased tactical spell costs, get Iron Golems), yet Wraiths with blood traits that generally hurt them more than they help, don't get any special units despite indications that Shard Demons should be exclusive to the Wraiths (also some indication that Bound Spiders should be, so you might want to look into revising the descriptions slightly).

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Reply #1 Top


The problem with what you are suggesting is that it makes it difficult to make custom factions if every special ability gets locked together with a specific weakness/ skill combination.

 

EDIT: However, what we are starting to see is the evolution of the faction creater system. They are starting to divide abilities into major ones worth 2 picks, and minor one worth 1 pick. since you get 3 picks, with an option for a 4th if you take a weakness, then you get combine four minor abilites - which works really well, or two major ones.

 

Reply #2 Top

I have to agree with the OP. As he stated, the description of the shard demons specifically mention their creation by Ceresa, so it would only make sense for Binding to be one of Resolns racial traits.

Reply #3 Top

they could instead make a "vampirism" faction trait that does what the current wraith trait does (maybe make it a little better) so just switch those traits around for Resoln.

Reply #4 Top

I am going to come down very heavily against this. Blood traits are there to make the basic troops of factions unique and that's it. It's stupid and horrible for custom factions to make blood traits do more then that.Faction traits and blood traits are very different.

Roseln needs a real blood trait not a pointless shuffle of traits. The 3 point heal from kills needs to be redesigned to scale, the end. If anything Golems and slaves need to be tied to faction traits, not the other way around.

Reply #5 Top

Another option would be to freely give the unlock to all sovereigns of the wraith race. It's really a semantic difference from putting it in the bloodline, but still.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 5
I am going to come down very heavily against this. Blood traits are there to make the basic troops of factions unique and that's it. It's stupid and horrible for custom factions to make blood traits do more then that.Faction traits and blood traits are very different.

Roseln needs a real blood trait not a pointless shuffle of traits. The 3 point heal from kills needs to be redesigned to scale, the end. If anything Golems and slaves need to be tied to faction traits, not the other way around.

 

So, then you want the Jugs not tied with Trog blood, Henchmen not with Men, Golems not with Ironeers? I like the idea of ALL races having unique and thematic troops, like the Jugs.  Having the demons tied to the Wraith sounds good to me.  

Reply #7 Top

Jugs are fine because they are literally Trogs but the rest should be moved to faction traits. Blood traits are genetic, faction traits are cultural. Making golems and taking slaves isn't genetic. As I said before the purpose of blood traits is to make each individual races' troops different and unique. If you start mixing up race and faction bonuses you not only hurt customization but end up with basic troops that aren't unique. There is absolutely no purpose to mixing them up it's just bad policy and bad balance. Wraiths should be vampiric in combat, that's cool and unique. If it needs balancing, and it does, it needs balancing. What should not happen is that wraith troops become horribly generic and useless but the player get compensated with shard spawns.

Reply #8 Top

I wonder about the Golems though.  The Ironeers are more than they appear, they are not closely related to the other races of men and whether they are men or fallen has been up in the air...it really doesn't make sense for anyone other than Ironeers having Golems in my mind.  Slave, yea.  Capitar had slaves, I think just about anyone could have them.  Jugs, should be Trogs.  Henchmen I'm a bit torn, as they seem to arise from a  people with many bloodlines and a special ambition which is what men are, but I guess they could be any nation, although having them empire side makes Sions worthless.

Reply #9 Top

I'd be fine with moving some of the special units from blood traits to faction traits (slaves especially - Slave Lords is kind of crappy for two points in the faction creator as it currently is, and they make little sense as a racial attribute rather than a faction ability).

As for Henchmen, I'd agree that getting them as an Empire makes Sions worthless, but perhaps they could be re-worked into a Kingdom equivalent of Sions rather than a Race of Men better version of Sions. Or have Henchmen unlock from the Heroic faction trait if a Kingdom, and improved Sion traits unlock from Heroic as an Empire (assuming Henchmen moved to Heroic).

Iron Golems are debatable to me - are they creations of some special magic only available to Ironeers, or are they made simply through the use of another variant of the spell that was used for the creation of the other golems?

Slaves make no sense to me as a blood trait, and would make much more sense as a faction trait - sending out waves of people your society considers worthless to absorb the attacks of your opponents in the place of your elite forces is a cultural attribute, not a racial one.

Juggernauts are supposed to be another kind of Trog, so it's alright to me that they are left as is.

 

Wraith Blood, as it stands, provides you a marginally useful bonus for low-level heroes, a significant penalty to the health of any unit or champion with Wraith Blood, a unit trait (Zealotry) that grants a small initiative bonus (+3) but prevents any unit designed with it from ever gaining any health (Zealotry), and a unit trait of marginal usefulness (Hallowed Rite - +3 mana per kill, and I'd assume that this works the same way that the health per kill from Wraith Blood works). Wraith Blood needs something to make it better, and the shard demons already say that only Ceresa can create them. I could also go for an improved version of the way Wraith Blood already works (such as recovering health by damaging an opponent, rather than by killing one), but it does need improvement.

Also, the current special unit distribution seems designed to make the good and average blood bonuses better rather than to make the bad bonuses average.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting joeball123, reply 10
unit trait (Zealotry) that grants a small initiative bonus (+3) but prevents any unit designed with it from ever gaining any health

Has this been reported yet? It seems extremely unbalanced. Maybe it was overlooked during the recent changes to HP.

Reply #11 Top

If we are going to keep the existing system where different things are inherent in different races, then I am fine with all Wraith Sovs getting Binding.

Reply #12 Top

Golems-> Ironeers only

Juggernaughts -> Yithril only

Slaves -> Tied to Slavelord trait perhaps?? (its a bit weak for being 2 points at the moment ... imho)

Henchmen -> ??? (either way)

 

that leaves ...

Krax, Amarian, Wraith, and Tarth. (and possibly Magnar/Altar) for racial specials.


Well hmm ...

lets keep Altar with Henchmen for now. Magnar needs something new though. It already has +50% fire resist and -50% cold resistance.

Hmm ... Well flesh bound totem is an interesting trait. Maybe we should just merge that trait with the Magnar race? That opens up an extra trait slot for the Faction as a whole. Would give the Quendar synergy with slaves (without being tied directly to them), and would reinforce Magnar's place as an ancient race created from dark magics (sort of like how the Juggernaughts do for the Yithril). I mean ... if Death Lash and Consume energy (or whetever its called) are Quendar only ... I dunno, would give more flavor to the race I think.

ALTERNATIVELY, instead of looking at their slave preference and their ancient magical origins ... we could instead look upon their reptilian nature.

+50% fire -50% cold already has a good deal of the 'lizard nature' covered ... especially in terms of being 'Volcano Lizards.'

However, we could do more. For instance, scales and chainmail, could we say they are similar? Why not? :P

Therefore +2 cutting defense on all Quendar race units. (this could even be added if Fleshbound totem was consumed, I suppose).

But +2 cutting defense (along with +50%/-50%) isn't enough of a racial strength, if you compare it to Juggs or Golems. So what else? Training ophidians? Probably not ... however perhaps allowing a certain type of mount to be bought/used by Champions. Say ... either Skath or Umberdroth? Or perhaps a 'Fire Skath' for more flavor flair. Should trained units be able to ride Fire Skaths? Well, not unless we make an additional resource for fire skaths ... perhaps produced by a unique replacement for Skath Pits. (or an earlier, separate building).

 

So in addition to +50/-50 ... either make DeathLash et al (flesh bound) Quendar race specific, or add +2 cutting defense and the ability to buy fire skaths as Mounts.

 

For Krax? Krax are already pretty good (+10 defense at half health, plus fortify .... quite nice actually). However, if we were to add something, what would it be? Perhaps better catapults? (Either better, more varied defense, or perhaps a slight initiative boost) --> Although honestly I could see either Capitar or Gilden as more likely recipients of the "Better Catapult". (probably Capitar, actually ... Mercenaries plus Siege weapons has a nice ring to it, imho).

So if not Heavy Catapults (+def), or Trebuchets (+init) for Kraxis ... then what? Honestly Krax might be strong enough as a race to not need much of a boost. Its a fine line ... balance. Faction editor balance is probably not even possible, while Default Faction balance is still quite challenging.

That being said, the Amarians and the Wraith likely still need a boost.

Oh Tarth? yea ... Stealth + Scout is enough for them ... even if it is just a faction trait (instead of a racial) :p

Wraith however ... I could certainly see Binding linked to them. Wraith as a race is somewhat weak, however binding is somewhat strong, so I think it fits ^_^

As far as the Amarians, well the spell books of the Decalon certainly seem to take their sweet time in arriving (half-way through the tech tree). Not exactly what I expected, AND you can just buy spell books from an AI pariden faction ;)

Therefore, what I think the Amarians need are a couple race-specific Unit-editor traits. One a fairly cheap (5 cost) trait that increases magic resistance (by 5? 10?). Next, (three?) relatively expensive traits (15 cost?) that increase elemental attack +2 (fire, cold, and lighting). Alternatively just choose between cold and lightning. Possibly have them be 20 cost, as traits don't cost crystal. ---> Perhaps instead just give them stronger magical staves (+1 or +2 of the original damage). Either way, something to do with being a bit stronger in magic (both offense and defense) at least on the trained units level.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting joeball123, reply 10

Wraith Blood, as it stands, provides you a marginally useful bonus for low-level heroes, a significant penalty to the health of any unit or champion with Wraith Blood, a unit trait (Zealotry) that grants a small initiative bonus (+3) but prevents any unit designed with it from ever gaining any health (Zealotry), and a unit trait of marginal usefulness (Hallowed Rite - +3 mana per kill, and I'd assume that this works the same way that the health per kill from Wraith Blood works). Wraith Blood needs something to make it better, and the shard demons already say that only Ceresa can create them. I could also go for an improved version of the way Wraith Blood already works (such as recovering health by damaging an opponent, rather than by killing one), but it does need improvement.

Also, the current special unit distribution seems designed to make the good and average blood bonuses better rather than to make the bad bonuses average.

 

Wraith blood:

-1 HP per level, +3 HP per kill.

 

Also, the ability to use these traits during Unit Creation

Vampirism: gain 25% health back from melee damage dealt.

Soul Binding: +5 mana per kill

Zealot: +3 initiative. -1 HP.

Unholy Strength: +2 HP per level (wraith version of tough, flavor re-naming)

 

 

----> as a Side note, does the Tough (+10% HP) faction trait of Yithril allow you to use the tough trait (+2 hp per level) in the unit editor? Cause I think it should.

 

I give this post 5 stars worth of "I think this will work" rating. As a baseline, my last post (about how to make the faction editor/races more balanced) ... I give that about 2.5 stars in its entirety, while I give 3.5 stars to my Quendar suggestions.

Reply #14 Top

Maybe instead of choosing those traits, it should be random?  Wraith heroes should get a chance at these traits as well.

 

The -1 hp per level wasn't bad when the base was 4, but the lowered base really made this weakness become much larger than what it originally was, and was a massive nerf to Wraith/Amarian blood traits.

 

 

 

 

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 14
Vampirism: gain 25% health back from melee damage dealt.

This should just be the base Wraith Blood ability. That would make them interesting and unique.

The game also needs more racial unit traits in general.

Quoting Alstein, reply 15
Wraith heroes should get a chance at these traits as well.

This please!

Reply #16 Top


With unique units tied to blood traits, I think it should be all or none; either every blood trait should have a unique unit tied to it, or every unique unit is a faction trait that can be picked up regardless of blood trait.

Either way, at the moment (and if they do seperate unique units from blood traits) Wraith Blood does need a bit of a boost. I kinda like the idea of the health gain being on every melee attack, rather than just kills, but I think it would make it too good, especially for a custom faction that can pick up traits to maximize the damage and isn't limited to leather. Perhaps a better way would be a % of the Wraith unit's max health regained on a kill?