[Suggestion] Stronger monsters should be placed farther away from starting cities

from Elemental Forums

Random monster placement on maps can mean that you get very strong monsters seeded right next to players' starting locations which the players have no hope of defeating even in a couple of hundred turns. This is usually frustrating, unless the difficulty is turned way down so that the storm dragon next to your starting location is for all intents somewhat catatonic or benign.

Frogboy recently said in this thread that this issue can also result in the AI players getting stomped over early on in the same way. (He suggests having strong monsters near AI starting cities to automatically commit suicide but I think this is just sidestepping the issue in favor of the AI).

But either case will still unbalance the game too much to one side.

Instead of having completely random monster placement, I suggest placing stronger monsters away from starting cities in general. So the strongest monsters should have very low probability of appearing next starting cities, and have higher probability the further away.

What do you think?

7,382 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

To a degree, both is already happening.  Yes it's random, but strong monsters are far from your initial starting point.  I always wonder if people who complain aren't playing Chuck Norris mode aka Ridiculous or Insane at world creation menu.  I've not seen a dragon near my start.  EVER.  For the record I have played Challenging / Challenging  for both the world and AI settings.  I've played large and medium random maps.  I've seen dragons but once I was out and scouting around.  Earliest, quite possibly would be 3rd city or so.  Which would cause me to look into exploring/expanding a different direction. 

Anyhoo, I also wish people would say exactly how many squares away the monsters are.  Again,  I can't say I've been blessed cause I've had really crappy starts and have used ctrl-N before.  Also what are people calling strong monsters anyways?  That could be open for debate.  Dragons yes.  Wolves no.  Sometimes settling near wildlands you get aggressive vistors some which patrol others seem to just bee-line to attack your city.

 

So far based on my own observations and playing the game,  I don't feel this is needed for the human player.  The AI?  I can't comment, as I usually just play normally dont use the map reveal.  If it is happening, I'd be all for the AI player getting a small break.  

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I dont see this at a problem at all. Have played many games with last patch and I have lost cities to shrills and smaller stuff. Havent gotten trouble form juggernauts or dragons yet. I dont mind a dragon roaming now and again. 

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

Like Supreme Shogun said, there are some issues on this post:

- Usually have not seen strong monsters NEAR initial position. Other thing is, the second or 3rd city may have disturbing "neighbours".

- Play challening mode or less untill get familiar with game mechanics.

- Dont allow your ZoC gets over big monsters.

 

The problem with monsters is...how to balance them to get a challenging level, but not disappointing? I miss a lot the original solution of EWOM: using the World tech tree to improve quantity and quality of monsters. Once first stage monsters were cleansed, then make a research and get 2nd stage lairs, and so...

By now, all lairs are in the world, with the problem of unbalancing (from weak monsters to Deadly, and some epic, all mixed). I see difficult to balance that...at least, without making deep changes.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Having monster and quest level appearance depend on the tech tree is illogical and gimmicky, and makes no sense to me .... As I keep saying, there are several easy, predictable games out there (HoMM, anyone?) for people to play, and there is always the easy mode for casual players.

Also, please keep in mind that this is not the campaign but the random map mode - I am quite certain that the campaign will be a more gradual challenge, with monster level scaling up as the player progresses and gains levels - but a completely open-ended world is a dangerous place, and it should remain dangerous!

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

In all of my past five or so games (which are on normal and have monsters set to dense), I have seen at least one dragon within 20 tiles or so of my starting position. I once found three dragons by the third turn, not to mention the lesser monsters like juggernauts and hoarder spiders and cave bears. My current game, however, has 'merely' one Fell Dragon and a Hoarder Spider lair for close monster locations that I don't want to disturb for a little while.

It isn't unreasonable that places with lots of very dangerous monsters exist on the map, but for me to start in a location such as that is terrible, especially as it means that there aren't really any locations nearby that I can settle - when it has happened that I start close to large numbers of medium, strong, or deadly monsters, it also usually happens that there is one of them close to any reasonable settlement position, and I'm not that interested in spending the first who knows how many turns watching my negligible gildar reserve disappear into the pockets of the champions I meet while looking for a place to build my first city (or take one from an AI, which with any luck will also have a friendly neighborhood dangerous monster nearby will come by to say hello as soon as I take the town).

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd say at the very least, dragons should guard some sweet tiles to settle so killing them nets you a nice city.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I proposed integrating this into a general system of map-based difficulty zones over here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/433333

So in essence, yes, I definitely agree that the tougher monsters need to be further away from starts - nobody should get randomly screwed because any city near the start will have its ZoC release a deadly monster long before there's any hope of defeating it.

FYI, I would call "strong" monsters things like Troll or Ophidian armies, Drakes, Slags, Skath Armies or Dragons.  Right now I'm playing on ridiculous, though I've seen this on Expert as well.  Also, IMO, "hardest" difficulty should never mean "automatically unwinnable".