[Balance] Champions

from Elemental Forums

In the context of the strategy game, champions are just troops - yet being both immortal, and relatively permanent additions to a player's roster once hired, actually has the unintended and inverse effects of not only making other trained troops seem entirely optional and unimportant (more than anything else in the game I might add), but also of completely diminishing the feeling of importance actually intended for champions.

The value of anything is directly related to the weight of losing or not having it.

 

I suggest that Sovereigns become the only champions which cannot be lost - all other champions leaving their faction after the second and third injuries to explore the world under AI control, from a random location near where they were defeated, until hired again (free, to both kingdoms and empires).  Four wounds equals death, creating a goodie-hut on the tile where the champion fell full of their equipment (and potentially fertile ground proportionate to their power?).  Healing an injury should naturally extend a champion's life; lives which would become much more commonly protected and accompanied by support squads.  Imagine how much less daring (yet no less powerful) that second champion would be after their first injury; and how much of an impact it would have on the story if one actually fell, only to then have a city flourish around their grave.

  • Another notion that would entice champions to stay home and send out troops more is allowing their injuries to be healed if they remain stationed in a city for a certain number of turns (perhaps requiring a unique building as well).
  • If a champion is defeated by an opposing faction instead of a monster it could be sent to that faction's nearest city to await rescue (for the first three wounds only).
  • A spell similar to steal spirit that sacrifices a champion in the creation of ground proportionately fertile to their power could also be introduced.
  • If a champion is stationed in a city it could contribute one point to each elemental shard power for every level in the associated schools of magic.  Introducing troop traits related to the elemental powers would then further entice a more balanced use of them and champions out around the strategic map.

 

Plus, these suggestions would give the stories played out in each game much more depth.

15,134 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

OP edited for clarity as much as possible.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cardinaldirection, reply 1
OP edited for clarity as much as possible.

Ew clarity

Meaby instead of just automatically ressurecting champions, they get sent to the hospital, and cities need to spend production to heal them?
They still suffer a wound, but this would tie them more into the city mechanics, instead of being a "seperate game"

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

One very simple "fix" is to increase the recuperation time for heroes when they do fall. Not only are they ineffective during this period, but it also puts a serious dent in their ability to progress.

Dying champions is extremely problematic because it makes it very difficult to build a base of magic. Although it would certainly make the sovereigns stand out more, I can't help but feel that magic would be much less present in the game if this was the case.

And if we are struggling with these problems imagine how the AI will manage it without cheating. Having a game of magic, it is vital that magic is used both by me and against me.

I tried having champions bite the dust after a while in a modded game a while back, and it just wasn't really fun to play with. Losing a champion meant losing access to a huge source of magic and a pillar of power. With no real ability to reinstate that power (I can train another army unit, I can't just pop out another champion) it made focusing on heroes a complete waste of time.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 2

Meaby instead of just automatically ressurecting champions, they get sent to the hospital, and cities need to spend production to heal them?
They still suffer a wound, but this would tie them more into the city mechanics, instead of being a "seperate game"

 

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 3
One very simple "fix" is to increase the recuperation time for heroes when they do fall. Not only are they ineffective during this period, but it also puts a serious dent in their ability to progress.

 

Haha they get entered into the city's queue upon falling, perfect!

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Another notion that would entice champions to stay home and send out troops more is allowing their injuries to be healed if they remain stationed in a city for a certain number of turns (perhaps requiring a unique building as well).

This, imho, is an ideal solution if champions dying is going back on the table. Cities should be able to heal injuries for champions stationed there - maybe 1 per 15 turns, or maybe just a straight up 5% chance to remove a random trait. Low-level cities would be worse at doing it, high-level cities better. There could be both improvements and spells (and even other heroes) that improved the chance of removing an injury. It is also something that is fairly easy for the AI to manage (if injury then idle).

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

They don't need to die so much as they need to be able to be lost, unavailable, or managing affairs from home base.  Eventual death would just provoke a stronger attachment to them from the player as well.  I really like the idea of champions being able to enter a city's queue for one reason or another.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

the problem is actual game is balanced for champions NOT dying, the game would just be so much more rng and the beloved champion leveled for 200 turns would go to hell

 

its nonsense for so many reasons...

first ai would never be able to manage them, cure them, fight with the goal of winning fight AND not losing any champions etc etc

it would be just another exploit for humans, just target the strongest champion and destroy 20% of ai strenght because ai will never be able to counter this (its not so easy to counter for a real player tbh)

 

making like the op said n wounds b4 death is a good compromise but still ai will suffer too much from this, it will just delay the moment

 

also many injuries are very bad, if you get -hp -accuracy and another bad the champion is basically useless anyway

 

healing injuries woudl be cool but even this stuff is so much much complicated to teach ai

its hard to figure it out for a player, i m not really in favor of adding so complicated mechanics to the game where ai need so much improvement in the basic manouvers

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

They can't die.  The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.  If I have a faction that isn't skilled at getting champions, like Athica or Kraxis, than I might not have that many champions until later in the game, I often go to the midgame with only my sov and 3 other champs.  If they died, there is no way to replace them.  And they can die pretty easy.  Dark wizard doesn't seem to tough?  Well, here's a despair spell that hits everyone for 60.  Al that would do is inspire a reload.  So the penalty has to be something that we would be willing to live with, but also causing us to be cautious.  The injury system, while not perfect, does a pretty good job of this.  I'm on the other side of the fence, I think what we have now is more prohibitive than what is fun and would like more ways to cure injuries.  The big problem is that if a person is defeated in battle, but  you win, then they get the injury, but are not incapacitated.  I think they should be always transported to the capital and out of commission when defeated.  

 

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 8
the problem is actual game is balanced for champions NOT dying

Exactly - champions being permanent additions to a player's roster once hired is the very reason why they are imbalanced, especially in relation to troops.

 

Quoting ddd888, reply 8
the beloved champion leveled for 200 turns would go to hell

Creating a grave with their equipment, and fertile ground proportionate to their power.  The most memorable moments are losses, acquisition is the pattern of life.  Personally I welcome some depth to the stories played out in each game.

 

Quoting ddd888, reply 8
its nonsense for so many reasons...

first ai would never be able to manage them, cure them, fight with the goal of winning fight AND not losing any champions etc etc

it would be just another exploit for humans, just target the strongest champion and destroy 20% of ai strenght because ai will never be able to counter this (its not so easy to counter for a real player tbh)

What exactly about the proposed changes makes them more difficult to incorporate into the AI than any others?  The goal is a functionally balanced game regardless.

 

Quoting ddd888, reply 8
also many injuries are very bad, if you get -hp -accuracy and another bad the champion is basically useless anyway

Champions being mortal would solve this^ issue as well.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

It's been mentioned before, but each wound gained gives the affected Champion a +%5 chance of permadeath (after the first wound)

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cardinaldirection, reply 10


What exactly about the proposed changes makes them more difficult to incorporate into the AI than any others?  The goal is a functionally balanced game regardless.

 

 

well imo at this point we are close to release so i wouldnt want to see a feature that is cool per se but totally exploited by humans and totally ignored or used randomly by ai

thats my view

 

as for your question what makes the actual system more ai like is that a mistake is not punished so much

injuries dont destroy ai for making a mistake and bringing a champion to death

 

death would destroy ai, forcing to work months to remake ai to play in a more careful way, to seek fights where the top champions dont risk anything etc etc

 

also it would require a lot of work in tactical since they should have a totally different behaviour

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 9
They can't die.  The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.

As it stands the game feels somewhat like it's on easy mode, because losing is so difficult.  It sounds as if you are shying away from a little bit more of a challenge?

 

Quoting Lord, reply 9
  If I have a faction that isn't skilled at getting champions, like Athica or Kraxis, than I might not have that many champions until later in the game, I often go to the midgame with only my sov and 3 other champs.  If they died, there is no way to replace them.  And they can die pretty easy.  Dark wizard doesn't seem to tough?  Well, here's a despair spell that hits everyone for 60.  Al that would do is inspire a reload. 

How about using some troops as well?

 

Quoting Lord, reply 9
So the penalty has to be something that we would be willing to live with, but also causing us to be cautious.  The injury system, while not perfect, does a pretty good job of this.  I'm on the other side of the fence, I think what we have now is more prohibitive than what is fun and would like more ways to cure injuries.  The big problem is that if a person is defeated in battle, but  you win, then they get the injury, but are not incapacitated.  I think they should be always transported to the capital and out of commission when defeated.

 

Good ideas.  The injury system is actually quite elegant, it just needs to be expanded.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 12

death would destroy ai, forcing to work months to remake ai to play in a more careful way, to seek fights where the top champions dont risk anything etc etc

 

also it would require a lot of work in tactical since they should have a totally different behaviour

 

It is my understanding that the AI is one aspect of this game that is not only still being improved upon constantly in response to changes in game mechanics (even as we type), but is also in dire need of it.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cardinaldirection, reply 13

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9They can't die.  The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.

As it stands the game feels somewhat like it's on easy mode, because losing is so difficult.  It sounds as if you are shying away from a little bit more of a challenge?

 


Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9  If I have a faction that isn't skilled at getting champions, like Athica or Kraxis, than I might not have that many champions until later in the game, I often go to the midgame with only my sov and 3 other champs.  If they died, there is no way to replace them.  And they can die pretty easy.  Dark wizard doesn't seem to tough?  Well, here's a despair spell that hits everyone for 60.  Al that would do is inspire a reload. 

How about using some troops as well?

 


Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9So the penalty has to be something that we would be willing to live with, but also causing us to be cautious.  The injury system, while not perfect, does a pretty good job of this.  I'm on the other side of the fence, I think what we have now is more prohibitive than what is fun and would like more ways to cure injuries.  The big problem is that if a person is defeated in battle, but  you win, then they get the injury, but are not incapacitated.  I think they should be always transported to the capital and out of commission when defeated.

 

Good ideas.  The injury system is actually quite elegant, it just needs to be expanded.

 

The spells killed the troops even more easily as they do x damge times the number of troops in the unit, so they are even more easily killed by spells.  Troops can't do anything to large monsters and can easily be destroyed by magic.

 

And as for the champions being easy mode, it has less to do with them being able to die and more to do with the crazy powerful weapons they can get, the buffs they can get, or the power of a few spells.  Going from a weapon that is a 12 to a 32 creates a real power problem.  

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 9
They can't die. The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.

Thats right, I wouldn't mind champions dying after 7-9 wounds since... well same same, but I would rather they would be retired as city governors, even for a meagre 5% bonus until I decapitate them.

Quoting Lord, reply 9
The big problem is that if a person is defeated in battle, but you win, then they get the injury, but are not incapacitated. I think they should be always transported to the capital and out of commission when defeated.

Thats true too, having a dying hero in stack that wins doesn't give you much of a penalty for dying, half the wounds are "laughable" the other half kills alot of power in the champion.

I think the most interesting mechanics would be to be able to spend time curing injuries off heroes, because this in turn would also allow for  heroes to be slightly weaker. That and monsters should have less overpower and more stuns etc. so you would need to bring more than just your sovereign to kill stuff.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Guaranteed permadeath as you describe wouldn't do anything to make champions balanced.  IMHO, "balance" comes down to the fact that the AI currently doesn't use their heroes as well as good human players would (for example, I have never had an AI champion cast a direct-damage spell). 

Champions are balanced against each other, but the AI just can't keep up with a competent player.  So by the time the player is ready to go to war, his champion is 5-10 levels beyond where the AI's champs are and twinked to the sky from loot drops.  If your hero had parity with the AI's and faced off alone against the AI hero with backup, he'd be back home nursing his new wound before you knew what hit you.

Currently, players are able to plow through the game with their uber-champ without dying ever.  Really this would just handicap players who are already struggling to master the game.  Your suggestion would make no difference for good players and make the game much harder for novices.

Increasing the likelihood of permadeath (if it's still in the game, I haven't seen or heard of champs dying in any game I've played) on higher difficulties might be something worth looking into, if it did add some extra tension to the game.

And I like the idea of applying a permanent change to the spot where the champion dies.  Maybe it could have an effect depending on the type of hero? Like some make it settleable, another might spawn a monster lair nearby, or a quest, or a goodie hut.

I also like the idea of being able to hire champions away from your opponents (or have them hired away).

There could be a mechanism to would spawn new champions/quests/monsters randomly as the game progressed.  That way, if your heroes were dying or being stolen, you'd have a chance of recovering from that.  The opposite problem, however, then rears its head.  You don't want one faction with dozens of champions, either. 

So maybe you'd only spawn a new hero when an existing hero dies.  How about introducing hero aging, with the more time they spend fighting the faster they age, up to some rng generated lifespan at which point they die.  You could have potions of vitality and traits and wounds that affect the lifespan.  Fun stuff (as long as you don't have to program it or train the AI to use it).

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 16

I think the most interesting mechanics would be to be able to spend time curing injuries off heroes, because this in turn would also allow for  heroes to be slightly weaker. That and monsters should have less overpower and more stuns etc. so you would need to bring more than just your sovereign to kill stuff.

I don't see why some most wounds can't be curable.  Maybe just through a low %chance to cure for each wound that's rolled each turn.  I'd put in a %chance to get sick (random injury) as well.  (Your hero fell down the stairs of the local brothel and now he has a broken arm!)  There could be attributes that make them more/less susceptible to injury or more/less easily cured.  Yum!  Flavor!

The idea of giving monsters more stuns is really quite a good one.  Would definitely make monsters a tougher out.  But personally, I find stuns to be super annoying!

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 16

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9They can't die. The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.
Thats right, I wouldn't mind champions dying after 7-9 wounds since... well same same, but I would rather they would be retired as city governors, even for a meagre 5% bonus until I decapitate them.


Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9The big problem is that if a person is defeated in battle, but you win, then they get the injury, but are not incapacitated. I think they should be always transported to the capital and out of commission when defeated.

Thats true too, having a dying hero in stack that wins doesn't give you much of a penalty for dying, half the wounds are "laughable" the other half kills alot of power in the champion.

I think the most interesting mechanics would be to be able to spend time curing injuries off heroes, because this in turn would also allow for  heroes to be slightly weaker. That and monsters should have less overpower and more stuns etc. so you would need to bring more than just your sovereign to kill stuff.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

Couldn't agree more with less overpower and more stuns.  

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 16

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 9They can't die. The system isn't made with the ability to create more, so losing them permanently is problematic.
Thats right, I wouldn't mind champions dying after 7-9 wounds since... well same same, but I would rather they would be retired as city governors, even for a meagre 5% bonus until I decapitate them.

 

this could be  a nice skill , you decapitate your defeated champion to show your empire how not to be!

champion dies and empire gets + 1 production for 10 turns, they are scared after all!

 


I think the most interesting mechanics would be to be able to spend time curing injuries off heroes, because this in turn would also allow for  heroes to be slightly weaker. That and monsters should have less overpower and more stuns etc. so you would need to bring more than just your sovereign to kill stuff.

 

yeah

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 15

The spells killed the troops even more easily as they do x damge times the number of troops in the unit, so they are even more easily killed by spells.  Troops can't do anything to large monsters and can easily be destroyed by magic.

I am hoping for a "mob"bing counter mechanic to overkill that will give multiple units in a tile an advantage over a single one.

 

Quoting Lord, reply 15

And as for the champions being easy mode, it has less to do with them being able to die and more to do with the crazy powerful weapons they can get, the buffs they can get, or the power of a few spells.  Going from a weapon that is a 12 to a 32 creates a real power problem.  

Rewards are currently much more balanced than in previous betas, and look to be getting more attention.

Regardless, imagine how much less likely you would be to risk your champion's neck for an upgrade after that first injury, knowing that they would abandon your cause after the second.  At the moment I just hope the assessment of an enemy's strength in the tool-tip is accurate, forming very little strategy around the encounter.  Unless it's an army of troops that took me a few dozen turns to research and develop, I have little to lose in just jumping in.

I would love to settle a city around one of my champion's graves.  The stories played out in each game are in desperate need of ends, transitions, and depth.