darkehound

Essence, can we get rid of it now?

Essence, can we get rid of it now?

Hello to all , once again the voice of unreason returns. Back in this post-https://forums.elementalgame.com/429458-I was really unhappy with the state of the game. The current beta is much better, i am still having to run a command line edit to get 3d models but overall things seem to be running well EXCEPT the game concept essence. I have literally been ctrl-n ing for an hour and a half. I get a good map and all the spots that i think are nice have NO ESSENCE. It is hard enough in game to find a place in the wilderness to build a decent city, some maps are so bad i just ctrl-n and go on. But essence has reduced our starting locations even more. I do not understand any of the thinking behind putting another limit on city locations. Can we just edit out that line in the code and forget that it happened? Please? If the only thing the designers want is to limit city enchants then make them cost more or put them further up the tech tree. I usually only throw 2- inspiration and hammers- and even that is usually not possible. ---just ctrl-nned another map because the visible starting location had NO essence...didnt even walk around just boom.

FOOD MATERIALS MANA TREES RIVER HEROES CLAY are all possible starting factors. 3/3 is good 3/3/1 is doable BUT every one seems to be somewhere other than the NEEDED terrain features. We have had to deal with 3/3 as acceptable for a long time. Lets not continue to introduce one more variable that reduces start locations.

151,075 views 56 replies
Reply #26 Top

heavenfall...you ok? you fall down?   Something has struck me guys, apparently some of you play to play, I play to win. I played egypt in civ5 90%

percent of the time and in FFH I played derek's Elves, because i want to beat the living hell out of the map. I am not here to be FRANCE, I want to be the English with longbows. Once again I am here to conquer so I am going to take every single advantage. I am moving up the difficulty ladder now because the game seems to make a little more sense with placement and roaming monsters eating your face. But I am not going to normally say ooooh look a library and build a city. If the designers want to keep putting in more restrictions on start locations, then they can go ahead, why dont we have distance penalties and religion and culture and random events and every other mechanic that developers have created thru the years that eventually we look back at and say " I am glad that crap is gone". No one looks back lovingly toward civ2!!! Once again I want this game to be here in 10 years and tying the hands of the players is not the way to do it. IS this mechanic anything other than "distance penalties from capital" type of program add-ons? What is the upside? We could do more before we had essence. So it is subtractive, yes? What's next, setting it up so we have to a settle near the green tree for a food based enchantment or we have to settle the purple ground if we are playing death enchanters?

That's all, just kinda wondering why we have a new game mechanic that obviously took a lot of work and programming when my sov is riding a horse across the screen sideways? Lots of thoughts here and Obviously it is going to change because the "designers" love the new mechanic, I hope eventually they meet the guy that thought religion was a good idea and they have a long chat.

For i have tasted the Fungus, or why Brother Lal can't blink

 

 

Reply #27 Top

No one looks lovingly back at Civ2? What are you talking about?

Reply #28 Top

Population was the game winning mechanic in civ2, sorry i have been playing since before most of you were born so i remember every single bad idea ever......

Reply #29 Top

5 essence city is awesome and should be awesome. I don't see why making it beholden to shards is any better. Heck it makes it even stronger since pretty soon I have enough shards that EVERY city with piddly 1 essence has an enchantment giving me a bonus greater then what a 5 essence city would for that 1 enchantment.

Also while making a high essence city a conclave means it has even higher essence, I find it makes a better fortress... stack up all those "auras" that give permanent bonuses to units created in that city for the win.

Also as of 0.952 there is a bug where increasing essence does not recalculate bonuses from enchantments, you have to dispel and recast them to get the increased bonus.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Derek, reply 16
 

The intent is that the player adjusts his strategy based on the randomness of the maps.  Without that, where do you draw the line?  Do you Ctrl+N until you get nearby iron or crystal?  What about a nearby fire shard for your fire based custom sovereign?  If you have good locations you have to have comparatively bad locations.  If you want them all to be "good" then you probably want a starcraft type balanced locations.  That's important in multi-player, but one of the advantages that we have, since we are single player only, is we don't have to balance like that.  The world can be less predictable.

You may get a powerful monster nearby that makes growth difficult, and therefor increases the difficulty of the game, you may get a really good item from a goodie hut that makes the game easier.  We do attempt to balance these extremes so they don't overshadow the impact of the players strategic decisions.  But the good and bad of the random world is intended.  Some of the best games come from scrapping and surviving in less than ideal situations (in my opinion).

Personally I don't like the Ctrl+N option, but if players enjoy using it then it is there game and they can play as they wish.  I am a bit confused by folks that play on higher difficulty levels and Ctrl+N until they get an ideal starting location.  For me thats like turning the difficulty up and then turning it back down.  Like reloading saves from before lost battles, or until you get an item from a goodie hut that you want.  It's fine if that's what you want to do, but it always seemed odd to me.

Of course the other option is to play Pariden, they get an improvement that increases the Essence of any city by 1.

 

There is a difference between taking what you get at the start of a game and getting totally hosed and there is no reason, if you feel completly hosed, to have to exit back to the start menu and restart the game. There is never any reason , ever, ever, ever in software design to restrict agency on a user by limiting functionality, unless that functionality is impossible within the software. Plus the paradigm your talking about works best in competitive multiplayer where you cannot change your start or take back your moves. The catalyst to restrict these actions on yourself in singleplayer is that you will have to play that way in multiplayer, and since we don't have multiplayer the desire to play "hardcore" by self imposing limits on yourself is definetly reduced. Although in general I agree when you play without restarting or taking back moves a game is far more enjoyable.

 

That being said there is also the need for things to make sense and have at least a sense of fairness. When you see a square with river access and an adjacent forest and its a 4/3/0 and right next to it without adjacent river or forest is 4/2/3 you almost want to cry. Not just because of the humanity of it all but also because you know deep down in that special place you never talk about the 4/2/3 is better but you have to ruin the aesthetic. Or you bite the bullet and take the 4/3/0 because its your first city and you bargain yourself into going for a mat heavy city with a forest and the little extra growth of the river but for the rest of the game it is going to eat you up inside it doesn't have those three essence.

 

Hence the "problem" with essence and the reason, I believe, for this post. Essence needs to reinfore the aesthic. Essence should favor rivers, forests, and resources and lose the random pattern placement it seems to currently have. In the absence of these terrain features with fertile land it should increase as you move towards the center of the tile spread (i.e. favor creating 1 city in a fertile splat and not two on the edges, the essence should be in the middle).

Reply #31 Top

Quoting taltamir, reply 30
5 essence city is awesome and should be awesome.

I agree, I just believe that the benefit should lie in the number of enchantments, not both their number and power.  That's too much power from one resource.

I don't see why making it beholden to shards is any better. Heck it makes it even stronger since pretty soon I have enough shards that EVERY city with piddly 1 essence has an enchantment giving me a bonus greater then what a 5 essence city would for that 1 enchantment.

I chose tying it to shard power because that is the current measure of magical strength for nearly every other spell in the game.  Other possibilities are boring flat bonuses, or a simple doubling of materials or grain, to place greater emphasis on the other two tile resources.  In any case, I want the benefit of high essence to be more total enchantments, and there are plenty of alternate methods of improving enchantment strength.

Reply #32 Top

Jam3--- you make wish i had gone to school and learned words, you write pretty!!

Reply #33 Top


I loved civ 2. X(   THAT was empire management. If Fraxis tossed in resources and culture, like in civ 4, into civ 2, I'd never of played another civ again.

In the end, like all TBS, the end game became killer boring.

But there is still hope in FE, right? :-"

 

Reply #34 Top

I'm a fairly casual gamer, and I don't tend to play through to the end game very much, in part due to my RL schedule. I play 90% of my games as a stock Lord Relias and tend to play at the easier levels. I'm not the power gamer of several of the other beta testers and really don't tend to bother with optimization maximizing.

That said, my new game last night started me on a 4/2/3 and that just felt like a nutty start. In particular the immediately adjacent hero offered Earth 1 so I was able to Hammers the city up. There was some other insanity (two nearby material bonus resources), but the three essence I hadn't bumped into before and just having that 1 city being able to rack in that many more bonuses from enchantments was, well, nutty. After hitting a natural essence three, never mind what you can get a city up to, it didn't really feel like much of a game. 

I know that there are always extenuating factors and corner cases, but essence really feels like it overwhelms both food and materials. It feels like a bit too much to have the bonuses keyed off the amount of essence in the city, and also have the number of enchantments equaling the amount of resource. N-squared growth is a thing. Having enchantments be static could be a solution, I don't know. I just wanted to offer up my own perspective on this topic. 

Reply #35 Top

Quoting darkehound, reply 26
heavenfall...you ok? you fall down?   Something has struck me guys, apparently some of you play to play, I play to win. I played egypt in civ5 90%

percent of the time and in FFH I played derek's Elves, because i want to beat the living hell out of the map. I am not here to be FRANCE, I want to be the English with longbows. Once again I am here to conquer so I am going to take every single advantage. I am moving up the difficulty ladder now because the game seems to make a little more sense with placement and roaming monsters eating your face. But I am not going to normally say ooooh look a library and build a city. If the designers want to keep putting in more restrictions on start locations, then they can go ahead, why dont we have distance penalties and religion and culture and random events and every other mechanic that developers have created thru the years that eventually we look back at and say " I am glad that crap is gone". No one looks back lovingly toward civ2!!! Once again I want this game to be here in 10 years and tying the hands of the players is not the way to do it. IS this mechanic anything other than "distance penalties from capital" type of program add-ons? What is the upside? We could do more before we had essence. So it is subtractive, yes? What's next, setting it up so we have to a settle near the green tree for a food based enchantment or we have to settle the purple ground if we are playing death enchanters?

That's all, just kinda wondering why we have a new game mechanic that obviously took a lot of work and programming when my sov is riding a horse across the screen sideways? Lots of thoughts here and Obviously it is going to change because the "designers" love the new mechanic, I hope eventually they meet the guy that thought religion was a good idea and they have a long chat.

For i have tasted the Fungus, or why Brother Lal can't blink

 

 
  Everybody plays to win.  But playing the same game with the same tactic over and over again is boring.  Don't you ever want to just try to win when everything is stacked against you.  Make a custom sovereign that is clumsy and ineffecient, with 1 level in life magic and thats it--don't even take the remaining points.  Why is it even fun when you are only willing to play if everything starting out is perfect.  Try playing a 3/3/0 just because thats the best you got at the time.  You can found another city once you get started.  Better yet, find the nearest opponent and just take their best city.  I certainly hope the developers do not follow your recipe because I think the game you are describing is boring.

That said I do wish there was more control over the world.  I would like to see a few more sliders to determine how many resources are out there.  They have a few, but a couple more so people could customize their world would be great.

Reply #36 Top

I disagree with OP. I perfer to keep Essense.  I never ctrl-n (I personally view this as a cheat so I never use it) and even with a bad postion I usally still have good games.  I do thing that every square on the map with the exception of mountains and water should have the resources even if bad.

Reply #37 Top

Quoting darkehound, reply 5
We started this ride with a simple city placement model and every step further has reduced our options. I see absolutely no reason to go from OOOh look a mana source to the current system where you end up sucking hind tit if you dont have a forest and a shard and a farm and 3 essence...needless complexity is needless. Just before essence there were MANY complaints about food/mats values being low. Now we have another value on top of that which did not give us any upside, just a reduction in choices. THERE should be a least a medium start spot on your first screen but with */*/* that is three chances of it sucking. If the designers want a ctrl-n fest they got it......I would like one of the modders to take it out if the designers wont, and i wil play it like that forever.

Maybe they should just put in a 'I WIN" button in the game for you.

Reply #38 Top


I think it adds a very cool element to the game. Wasn't using it for the longest time. Then I started to play a modified Paiden, tp get the scrying pool, +1 essenece

 

Got a 3 grain 4 resouce 3 essence starting point, added the scrying pool and was doing some very interesting things with one city, Gives you a LOT of flexibility about what you want to do.

 

Drakehound, I seem to recall a concern you expressed about lack of city development, IMO this helps a lot.

 

Though, like you I'm not looking forward to the higher building cosst in the new beta.

Reply #39 Top

There are about 10 different ways that i have played this game so far and some of the strategies just no longer work out well because of changes the developers have put into the game. Some strats just went belly up because of lack of things--for example my favorite tamer build is just not the same without the rampant umberdoths- Silver tongue never seem to get off the ground because of the sucky troop types i was capturing.

Right now we seem to be back to the ride of the magnificent seven--get a couple of heroes and just plow the opposition. On my latest game I only have 3 native cities. I captured 6 others and i am in endgame position already.

All of this is to say that I do play different ways and the one city model is a kicker if things break right BUT, I still cant see why we keep narrowing down options in a strategic city building magic game----we are reducing city building and magic choices.....thats it.

We have had some very good responses and some from the cousin that licks paint, I would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread for having a well rounded thread that has put a lot of different thoughts on the table.

hound out

Reply #40 Top

I knew who the author of this post would be just by the title of it.

It just goes to show how different every person plays a given game.

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Reply #41 Top

Quoting darkehound, reply 40
Right now we seem to be back to the ride of the magnificent seven--get a couple of heroes and just plow the opposition. On my latest game I only have 3 native cities. I captured 6 others and i am in endgame position already.

This I completely agree with.  Champions are overpowered.  There is almost no reason to even train troops right now.  Get 4 or 5 champions, level them up, and just destroy them.  In no time you can even divide your army of 4 or 5 champions into 2 or 3 and still take on just about anything.

I still think champions need to be toned way down to make trained units relevant.

Reply #42 Top

I've been playing Seanw3's mod for the past few days, and I think his solution to champs vs. troops is a pretty good one.  Champion-only weapon damage is much lower, traits give a flat bonus to damage, leveling is slower, and troop weapons are a tad stronger.  It's still exploitable (I've got a henchman who can do almost 130 damage with Giant Form), but my faction is specifically designed to pull off such cheese, and it's far easier to counter (his health isn't high enough to withstand a full army of darklings, let alone an enemy faction's troops).

Reply #43 Top

Well I won twice in a row on the hardest difficulty without ever taking a city or settling so you certainly don't need to press ctrl-n to improve your starting city.

Mike.

 

Reply #44 Top

Quoting darkehound, reply 40
Right now we seem to be back to the ride of the magnificent seven--get a couple of heroes and just plow the opposition. On my latest game I only have 3 native cities. I captured 6 others and i am in endgame position already.

I confirmed that in adding heroes splits the XP so I will have to say that its the magnificent SOVEREIGN not 7.

My sov solos the game right now. Wins at level 25-30 and being a total god on the battlefield...

Its pretty fun actually.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting taltamir, reply 45
Quoting darkehound, reply 40Right now we seem to be back to the ride of the magnificent seven--get a couple of heroes and just plow the opposition. On my latest game I only have 3 native cities. I captured 6 others and i am in endgame position already.

I confirmed that in adding heroes splits the XP so I will have to say that its the magnificent SOVEREIGN not 7.

My sov solos the game right now. Wins at level 25-30 and being a total god on the battlefield...

Its pretty fun actually.

 

Ug, it might be fun , but thats a whole different game. You could kinda just throw out units and probably towns if the game was supposed to be about a single unit wandering around and killing everything solo. Plus then you could just focus on making that single unit rpg experience as fun as possible.

 

 

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Jam3, reply 46
You could kinda just throw out units and probably towns if the game was supposed to be about a single unit wandering around and killing everything solo.

Thats the current game balance for you ;)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Jam3, reply 46
Ug, it might be fun , but thats a whole different game. You could kinda just throw out units and probably towns if the game was supposed to be about a single unit wandering around and killing everything solo. Plus then you could just focus on making that single unit rpg experience as fun as possible. 

I explicitly pointed out the first part and explicitly asked for the second part :)

I would love to have the RPG portion fleshed out more so this can be like skyrim, only instead of smiting I have an entire empire.

Reply #48 Top

Quoting taltamir, reply 48

I would love to have the RPG portion fleshed out more so this can be like skyrim, only instead of smiting I have an entire empire.

And I hope not O_o. I hope there gets a reason to use units.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 49

Quoting taltamir, reply 48
I would love to have the RPG portion fleshed out more so this can be like skyrim, only instead of smiting I have an entire empire.

And I hope not . I hope there gets a reason to use units.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

If they didn't sap my precious XP I would use them alongside my super sov.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting taltamir, reply 50
If they didn't sap my precious XP I would use them alongside my super sov.

They don't.  Only champions sap your exp gain.