[FEEDBACK] Beta impressions after a long break from Elemental

from Elemental Forums

Played some FE and it was kind of.. fun. Here's some first impressions.

The overall presentation of FE could be improved. Right off the starting screen, the lullaby'ish music tried to put me to sleep. It certainly was not conveying the feeling of defiantly entering a devastated world with dangers lurking behind every corner to rebuild an empire from ashes. Music could be stronger with feelings of danger, mystery and defiance. Setting the mood just right is very important - it's the first thing to stir that excitement that makes you want to play. Sound effects seemed a bit underwhelming too.

Sovereign creation. Factions still seem a bit bland with obscure names and being all human apparently. Perhaps personal preference, but I don't like the black and white approach with Kingdom/Empire - Life/Death. Life+Death would actually be a very interesting combination as well and the good/evil factions don't really make sense with a free for all kind of approach. I would also remove the race choice for Sovereigns - they shouldn't necessarily have to be of the same race as their kingdom, or any distinct race for that matter. And it would be cool if the image of the Sovereign would appear in the magic portal background instead of a bland box covering this visual gem. Buttons and info to the sides?

The user interface with 1920x1080 makes most buttons and icons way too small. Overall the UI could be more clear, simpler, bigger. Juggling equipment between Sovereign and champions was clumsy and I had difficulties even keeping my party together - sometimes only one unit would attack when I thought I was moving a group. Having several units leave the city as a unit required shift-clicking all of the tiny icons.. what happened to things like drag to select or simply select all?

City building could also use some kill your darlings kind of love. There's just too much +1/+2 nonsense to build. When I build something, I want to be able to train new units or see clear improvements. Clicking on new buildings seemed more like a chore. I didn't feel like I was making conscious choices to build something but just chain building everything that was available. There didn't seem to be any kind of cost attached.. just the choice of building order. Cities take too much space on the map after building several buildings. We don't really need to see every individual building, do we? It's not like you zoom in to look.. the cities just need to look good.

Exploring and fighting was fun. So much more fun than city building in fact that I spent all time running around with my Sovereign's party of Champions and Summons and completely neglected to train any units or pay attention to my city aside from queuing up all the buildings, mostly in whatever order. There were no cool units to be trained for a very very long time.

Magic. Felt really random especially if you wanted to play a full magic oriented Sovereign. You might get more random spells as a level up perk, or you might not. No choice which path to research. Some spells come as level up perks, but you have a random selection of books in research as well. I just didn't get into it. In MoM it's so much fun choosing what spell to research next and magic is the center of the game.. that should be the goal here as well. Magic was one third of research, and spells were bundled up in that tree along with some pre-generated magic trinkets and buildings. Spell research should be vastly more important and exciting. There's a very engineer style approach to the whole magic aspect that doesn't feel magical.

Pacing. The start feels really slow. There's nothing fun to do except adventure with the Sovereign. In game terms it takes decades to build anything or get anywhere and it's a bit silly. There should be cool units to train and interesting choices to make right from the get go.

Suggestion: make turns last a month instead of a season (design a cool Elemental calendar if there isn't one) and raise the movement rates of most units so the concept of time makes more sense. Moving 2 squares in three months feels like a joke considering the scope of the map. Speed up building times but make building improvements cost something to introduce some resource management.

Overall I'm quite excited and hope this game continues to improve like it has been!

68,989 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

You forgot to say "Hound out."

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Great post.

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

OP's post makes sense. An awful lot of sense.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


Interesting feedback. While I don't agree that any buildings should cost less labor or have any sort of maintenance, the suggestion is telling of some problems in the current balance. The opportunity cost of buildings and early game troops is not quite right yet. The fact that adventuring is taking up so much time and that cities are largely ignored tells me cities need some more utility early on. Always nice to see a new perspective.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Not entirely agreeing with 100% of the OP, but it is well read and most of it is right now the bat.

The overall presentation of FE could be improved. Right off the starting screen, the lullaby'ish music tried to put me to sleep. It certainly was not conveying the feeling of defiantly entering a devastated world with dangers lurking behind every corner to rebuild an empire from ashes. Music could be stronger with feelings of danger, mystery and defiance. Setting the mood just right is very important - it's the first thing to stir that excitement that makes you want to play. Sound effects seemed a bit underwhelming too.

Sovereign creation. Factions still seem a bit bland with obscure names and being all human apparently. Perhaps personal preference, but I don't like the black and white approach with Kingdom/Empire - Life/Death. Life+Death would actually be a very interesting combination as well and the good/evil factions don't really make sense with a free for all kind of approach. I would also remove the race choice for Sovereigns - they shouldn't necessarily have to be of the same race as their kingdom, or any distinct race for that matter. And it would be cool if the image of the Sovereign would appear in the magic portal background instead of a bland box covering this visual gem. Buttons and info to the sides?

I really agree that we need way better UI.
And the music thing is probably right, although I do like this kind of flute music, I would love to hear some other themes once in a while.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


Great post! Detailed comments!

Overall Impression:
I've found the 'lullaby'ish' music to be excellant flavour/theme to draw the user into that fantasy mood. Granted, 'cataclysm' is not on my mind when I listen to it either. Personally, everytime a sandbox game starts, I'd love a cutscene of the cataclysm so you know what you have to work with as well as what your objectives are throughout the game...

Sovereign Creation:
I think sovereigns are being further tweaked in beta 5. I expect they will become more unique than curent. I kinda like the black/white approach as it means the game must be played multiple times in order to experiance the full flavor of what FE has to offer.

UI:
I agree. The trade + shop screens need a make over. Currently too clumsy.

City Building:
City building isn't going anywhere. It's 100 times better than before and, while I agree, that the +1/+2 bonus buildings are a little bland, there are enough other buildings that provide unique elements to captivate interest.

Unit Building:
Yeah, units need some work still, but I think that's more because there is currently no 'need' for them to be built. Once monster difficulties and encounters are increased, we'll be queueing units more often and the balancing of there abilities will follow suit.

Magic:
They're not done with magic yet, ie, they've been giving us only a taste. I think once all the spells are released and the balancing of those spells are complete, we'll have a much better feel for magic in FE.

Pacing:
If the start feels really slow now, wait till beta 5 is released because at the moment, the mid and end game are going to scratch your eyeballs out.

I kinda like the 'season' approach they've chosen to follow. Again, it gives that fatasy flavor for me. What I would LOVE to see is the landscape slowly change based on what season it currently is, just little things.

  • For Spring, flowers can occasionally bloom. Rainclouds can float by and rain.
  • For Summer, land can sometimes scorch.
  • For Fall, leaves can change color and fall off trees.
  • For Winter, snow flakes can blow around. Mabye land starts to turn white.

The longer your spend on a turn, the more prevelant the 'season' graphics become. I know this is wishful thinking and doesn't completely nothing towards the dyanamic of the game. BUT, it would totally suck me into the vortex of MUST PLAY THIS GAME...

In addition, perhaps certain random events will only happen in certain seasons. Maybe only floods in Spring, Droughts in Summer, Failed Harvests in Fall, and Blizzards in Winter. Stuff like that...

 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

More about magic...

I think they should move away from the type of (city) enchantments that give +1 to X per essence. Conjuring a Wall of Fire around your city is cool.. but +1 to growth or production isn't very magical or exciting. Same with unit enchantments.. flaming weapons = good, invisible +x to y buff = boring.

When spells are cast, things need to happen instead of invisibly linger in the background. That's what mundane research is for. City enchantments should be powerful and awesome mid-late game stuff with impressive visuals. Getting your first city enchantment would then be the mark of a powerful Sovereign and feel like an accomplishment.

Then there's equipping armies with magical equipment. When there's too much magic everywhere it just becomes less awesome.. if that makes sense. Compare to creating a magical item in MoM.. they really feel special and cool when they are rare, unique and only for champions.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

And another thing about magic.. :)

There should be a 7th school of magic for all things related to spirit and mind.. maybe also general stuff like dispels, teleporting.. anything that doesn't belong with the physical elements or life/death. Call it Arcane or Sorcery.

How is mind magic.. water?

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

The most important part of the OP's post is the comment about magic.  MoM was "exciting" when it came to researching new spells.  A new spell in of itself could completely change your strategy or enhance your army in a dramatic way.  The Magic in FE is....bland.  Part of the reason is b/c only sovereigns/champions can cast magic, instead of an "all-seeing eye" like in MoM.  Unfortunate.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Hound, reply 9
More about magic...

I think they should move away from the type of (city) enchantments that give +1 to X per essence. Conjuring a Wall of Fire around your city is cool.. but +1 to growth or production isn't very magical or exciting. Same with unit enchantments.. flaming weapons = good, invisible +x to y buff = boring.

When spells are cast, things need to happen instead of invisibly linger in the background. That's what mundane research is for. City enchantments should be powerful and awesome mid-late game stuff with impressive visuals. Getting your first city enchantment would then be the mark of a powerful Sovereign and feel like an accomplishment.

Then there's equipping armies with magical equipment. When there's too much magic everywhere it just becomes less awesome.. if that makes sense. Compare to creating a magical item in MoM.. they really feel special and cool when they are rare, unique and only for champions.

 

yeah i agree, enchants are a problem of the game, not only being op that is easily fixed but being too many of them just doing not cool stuff

you end in a game where you dozens of them just buffing stats(even if ofc some of them cant hurt, but so many of them...)

 

as for creating magical items in mom it was so boring a unbalanced instead

was too much easy to create what you wanted and that made champions god, so unbalanced the game even more

 

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top



Magic. Felt really random especially if you wanted to play a full magic oriented Sovereign. You might get more random spells as a level up perk, or you might not. No choice which path to research. Some spells come as level up perks, but you have a random selection of books in research as well. I just didn't get into it. In MoM it's so much fun choosing what spell to research next and magic is the center of the game.. that should be the goal here as well. Magic was one third of research, and spells were bundled up in that tree along with some pre-generated magic trinkets and buildings. Spell research should be vastly more important and exciting. There's a very engineer style approach to the whole magic aspect that doesn't feel magical.

Magic. I hear lots of people saying it feels too random and not enough characterized. I beg devs not to rush this game and get the Magic right. This game seems a good one already, but with undeveloped potentials for being great. Take some more time in  design before you balance it, please, and make it a great game.

Use some love with Magic schools:

Fire: burning-damage (with some DoT), best AoE damage, attack buffs, defence-reduction debuffs, hot emotions buffs (burning rage, lust...).

Water: freezing-damage, mind control (charme..), slow, magic resistance buff and debuff, abundance(food), dispels, regeneration(*).

Earth: stun-damage, physical defence, production, terrain mutation, strength, weapon/armor forging, roots, quakes.

Air: lightning-bouncing-damage, armor-piercing damage, evade, grace, flight, whispers.

Life: holy damage, stamina, heal, happyness, resurrect, pacify, protection.

Death: life-drain-damage, debuffs, poison DoTs, diseases, plague, sacrifices, fear, undead-related stuff.

 

(*) I would have liked regeneration to be Water, so that Life, Death and Water were the only schools able to heal, but each in a different fashion.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top


Hey Marionesi, 70% of those spells are already ingame... Not very persuasive for a plea.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top


Thanks for letting me know :)

It was more of a plea for differentiating schools though, I was not suggesting specific spells. I think all schools should be able to deal damage for example, but each in a different way. But I agree this was more of an emotive shout than a well-thought plan. I will think about something more structured...

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top


It is a mistake to think of the six elements as shools. They are more like books, with many many more books available outside of leveling. I count seven smaller books already ingame and there are many spells like Mana Blast that have no book at all.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

I wish too they would include more spells, or at least spell animations into the game. I would love to try some cheap/free magical attacks coming from spellbooks OR path of the mage.
Either that or see spell-staves use spell mastery and have the game supplement the choice.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top


I looked at the spells. Overall my impression is that there should be more city enchantments (especially life) and more overland enchantments. Life shold have more unit buffs. There should be more juicy spells at 5th level to give a reason to people to go all the way down there. In particular, tactical fire damage. Some low level damage for non-fire would also be nice, if appropriately characterized. This is personal taste of course!!

So here is what I propose to fit in:

Type Element Level Name Description
Tactical Air 2 Thunder Lance Medium damage. It is considered as a physical ranged attack (roll to hit)   but armor is halved.
Tactical Air 5 Call Lightning As in MoM and D&D. Each turn some lightnings fall and hit enemies. Lasts for the entire battle.
Tactical Death 3 Graveyard Each time a non-undead unit dies, a unit of skeletons is summoned on your   side of the battlefield
Tactical Death 5 Doom After 3 turns, target loses X hp. No resist allowed.
Tactical Earth 1 Entangling roots Small damage, the unit must resist or is rooted and must spend a turn to   get free
Tactical Earth 5 Cyclops' Boulder Huge rock falls from sky. Target takes x damage without resist. Small   chance of prone.
Tactical Fire 5 Incinerate Very high single-target damage spell. 75% damage still taken if resisted
Tactical Fire 5 Conflagration High Damage Over Time Spell. Lasts 5 turns
Tactical Life 4 Gift of Life Target dead non-hero unit is resurrected with 20% hp and can act   immediately. Can be used only once per battle.
Tactical Water 2 Cold Snap Low damage, reduces Initiative for 3 turns
Tactical Water 3 Blur A flat chance of missing is applied to all attacks to friendly units.   Does not stack.
Tactical Water 5 Invisibility Target unit is invisible: it cannot be attacked except in close combat,   with a penalty. Can be targeted by spell if a friendly unit is engaged with   it.
City Ench Earth 4 Forge of the Mountain Cost of armor and weapon for units trained in the city as well as their   training time is reduced by x%
City Ench Fire 2 Lust City growth +x%, research -y%
City Ench Life 2 Joy Reduces unrest. Either this or Anthipaty can be active at the same time,   so a contrast resist is rolled when one is cast and the other is present
Strategic Death 3 Boon of Darkness Target non-hero unit becomes Undead and gets +x attack, +y defence, +z   cold and poison resistance. It loses normal regeneration. Magic healing is   halved.
Strategic Death 5 Fester All healing is reduced by 50%. This excludes life drain effects.
Unit buff Life 3 Valor Target unit gains +x to attack and defence, and additional +y as long as   the enemy outnumbers you
Unit buff Life 4 Divine Protection Physical damage dealt to the target is reduced by x to a minimum of 2.
Unit buff Life 5 Divine Intervention When the unit fails a resistence roll, it rolls a second time

 

Some of you will recognize up to 5 spells from MoM I think.

Finally, both low-level summons and 5th-level awesome summons are needed, but these are easier to come up with so I skipped them.

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Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

 nice list marionesi!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks :D