Keeping the Korath in check and other ...stuff

from Stardock Forums

...no, not those natty tweed golf trousers. ;)

Well, this was my second ever ToA game and it didn't go very well! So, I'd appreciate some help on what I could do to improve etc. please.

For some context, my first game was played at 'Normal' game difficulty as Terrans on a small galaxy with 5 AI opponents. I won this fairly easily with an Influence victory and 4500 points. Everything I intended to do was achieved readily and everything I wanted to do was done fairly easily too. This was a bit disappointing, in that the game didn't seem very challenging at that point.

However, I had up until that game, read the manual from end to end and watched three 'Let's Play' games on You Tube, so I had a pretty good idead of what to do (in theory at least).

So, in the second game, I was tempted to up the difficulty to 'Tough' where apparently the AIs are on an even footing, but decided to go for 'Challenging' instead as at least the AI algorithms were supposed to be upped to 'intelligent' from 'basic' I believe?

The settings I used, were, Terrans (Mercantile party +25 trade +25 espionage), Medium galaxy, Challenging difficulty, Mega events: OFF, Habitable planets: Occasional, Planets: Common, Anomalies: Abundant, Stars: Common, Extreme Planets: Occasional, Number of minor races: Random, Asteroids: Common, 7 random AIs.

I started off right in the South Eastern corner with only Earth and Mars available. Quickly got a second spare colony ship and sent one north and the other east and explored. No joy, until the middle of the map, where I found and settled an uninhabited good quality planet right next to the Korath planets!

Far eastern edge and slightly north, found a high quality heavy gravity world which I colonised, next to the Drath, hmmm. Quickly beelined the requisite techs to make it productive ('Creative' certainly helped there by shaving off many weeks), then concentrated on trading, from all 3 colonised planets.

Trade was booming helped by the native mercantile ability and a couple of eco starbases. Popularity was high and influence bombing the nearest Korath colony seemed to be making an impact.

As soon as the military graph spiked, I created a token military, but that wasn't enough apparently as the Drath declared war on me, but soon backed down after I managed to research some higher spec ships and beat them down (defensively at least) to a peace treaty.

Then, the Korath (who were at war with almost everyone) decided I was way too weak for them (which I was) and declared war on me too, but the Drath came to our aid which helped a bit (for a while).

This and the previous Drath war decimated trade and I had to drastically reduce production and keep up taxes in compensation whilst still trying to keep morale over 50%, Very difficult to fight a war whilst losing morale and money every turn!

Long and short is the Korath just steam-rolled everyone, but this game brought forward lots of questions about things which I have no idea what or why they were happening, but made me realise the game was much more challenging at this difficulty level. Nice.

1. How did the Korath have such devastatingly high fire-power so quickly. They had fleets of 84 laser power totals for example, but total hit points of something stupid like 12! What was going on there?! I could only muster about 6-8 attack on medium hulls by then, so a fleet of about 24 power, but much bigger hit point total and still got slaughtered by them.

2. The Korath spored Mars and turned it radio-active toxic. When, why, or how did Saturn suddenly become a class 16 13 radio-active toxic planet when it started as a class 0?!

3, A minor race called the Snathians (I think) popped up in a video sequence which said something like they had stolen ALL the Korath techs (I had 'Advanced' infiltration on the Korath and Drath btw) and they would be glad to give them to us, but at a cost. They wanted 'Star Systems'. When you clicked 'done' after the video, nothing seemed to happen. What was all that about?! That video sequence came up at least twice, and each time I was none the wiser as to what was going on. What is/are 'Star Systems'?

I tried re-loading an early save and tried a different approach (still with the same 3 colonies) and attacked the Altarians to the north as they were the weakest of the AIs. That worked pretty well, but the other AIs were also at war with them, so I only managed to capture the capital. The other colony went to the Drath and they finally surrendered to the Korath. LOL

This didn't make much difference to the Korath steamroller anyway apart from delaying it a bit longer.

One other thing. In this game, a random event occurred where the Terrans found a 'Ranger'(?) class ship. It had something like, 108 Laser, 108 Mass driver and 108 Missile and massive hit point total. This temporarily reversed the Terran v Korath relative military strengths, but I stupidly used it for defence, where it got destroyed by some huge Korath fleet in one turn, LOL. In addition, it didn't help the economy as it suddenly cost an extra 300 bc per turn in maintenance.

So, apart from the three questions above, generally, what does one do (apart from Ctrl-N) when penned into a corner with no extra colonies?

Was it not a good idea to colonise the other two planets that I did?

TIA

12,491 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

1. How did the Korath have such devastatingly high fire-power so quickly. They had fleets of 84 laser power totals for example, but total hit points of something stupid like 12! What was going on there?! I could only muster about 6-8 attack on medium hulls by then, so a fleet of about 24 power, but much bigger hit point total and still got slaughtered by them.

A few things can be responsible for this: The Korath (if I am not mistaken) start out with a bonus for weapons, which makes weapons they put on ships a bit more devastating. Large fleets of small ships can also really rack up the damagecounter if they have decent weaponry, key to this is a high logistics value. The AI probably rushed weapon tech and got very far ahead of you. If it aquired a much larger planetbase than you, it also most likely had a much more impressive researchbase, explaining tech leads on you.

2. The Korath spored Mars and turned it radio-active. When, why, or how did Saturn suddenly become a class 16 radio-active planet when it started as a class 0?!

This sounds like a bug, or an event. I know of an event that will change uninhabited planets into habitable ones, but if I recall correctly (I may not) it doesn't turn them into extreme planets. So my bet is something went wonky.

3, A minor race called the Snathians (I think) popped up in a video sequence which said something like they had stolen ALL the Korath techs (I had 'Advanced' infiltration on the Korath and Drath btw) and they would be glad to give them to us, but at a cost. They wanted 'Star Systems'. When you clicked 'done' after the video, nothing seemed to happen. What was all that about?! That video sequence came up at least twice, and each time I was none the wiser as to what was going on. What is/are 'Star Systems'?

Ah, sweet bad luck to you. This is a semi-broken event that has been inherited from galciv, but not properly implemented. An example of a star system is the Sol system (containing Earth and Mars). The original idea was that the Minor Race AI would severely increase the value it assinged to planets you offered it in the Diplomacy screen, therefore making it possible for you to trade Star Systems for the techs it acquired from the Korath (provided tech trading has not been turned off). However, although the minor race (in this case the Snathi) DOES receive the techs that the Korath have researched, you will have a very hard time making them accept planets for it in return as they pretty much regard them as worthless. (Which would be a stupid trade on your par anyhow, seeing how low you were on planets to begin with.) Trading the techs for other techs or money is still viable though, except in some cases weapons techs: if any AI considers your military might to be too formidable, it will refuse to trade weapons tech to you.


So, apart from the three questions above, generally, what does one do (apart from Ctrl-N) when penned into a corner with no extra colonies?

Was it not a good idea to colonise the other two planets that I did?

Starting in such a poor starting location can be reason to give up immediatly, but it can also give rise to the more awesome underdog games. What you have to do ("somehow") is come out on top in the end. Just how to do this depends VERY much on the situation, but here are some pointers:

I'm surprised you even managed to grab those two extra planets, but I think you were probably wise to do so as they significantly increased your research and production capability. However, they are also a liability. Grabbing a planet in Drath and Korath territory is something that most likely increased the chances of the wars you were dragged into. The AI does not like conflicting culture boundaries, but this is not a problem that cannot be overcome.

Butter up your neighbours! Whenever the Drath and/or the Korath issue a threat and you know you cannot easily beat them: give in and buy yourself time.

Make them too busy to start a fight: Pay the biggest warrace in the galaxy to go to war with everyone else (in seperate deals), before they start wars on their own. Continue to instigate wars as long and frequently as possible.

Trade is a weak economic boost on the larger galaxies, but on medium it is actually pretty decent, not in the least because it provides a relations bonus. However, as you noticed the relations bonus is no guarantee AND trade is very vulnerable. You simply cannot rely on it unless you are certain you can stay out of all wars, or really have no other choice. It is a supplementary income at best, because it is so fragile. To me it does look like a risk you needed to take, though.

Diplomacy for the win! Trade for planets. Races that are on the losing side of a war are desperate for warships, there comes a point where they will sell you planets in return for your ships. Finding this point is difficult and requires you to have a decent fleet of your own, which appeared to be a problem last game. There is also a (rather lame) way to haggle races out of new planets very early in the game, I consider this method "cheese" but others disagree (as they have every right to do). A high diplomacy gets you better deals ánd provides a relations bonus.

Be oppertunistic. See a weak target? Kick it while it's down! Either directly join in the war against the strongest opponent, providing a united front and dividing the enemy strength, stay on the sidelines sponsoring the people at war with the strongest opponent while you try to outtech it (very difficult in your situation), or join with the strongest opponent and do better than him! One of the AI weaknesses is developing a comprehensive invasion strategy. This is a field where the human player can easely outperform the AI. (This resembles what you did to the Alterians, but next time be more thorough.) Get the Korath to go to war with someone, make sure you stay at peace with the Korath, send your transports in behind the Korath offensive fleets and snatch up the planets that they have cleared of hostile ships, before the Korath get their own filthy paws on them. Granted, it is ironically the Korath that are the hardest race to do this with, as they are pretty enthousiastic about their sporeships, much more than regular races are about transports.

You can also turtle up and go for a technology victory, but this may be difficult, depending on just how far behind in planetcount you were.

But whatever you do, you must remember that a poor starting location can mean the game feels a couple of difficulties higher than it really is. Therefore, if you are playing above the level you are used to AND end up in such a poor location, you are in for a really difficult game. It is not surprising you lost, considering your galciv experience so far. I'd have been surprised if you had pulled it off first time around actually. It is the lost games that usually teach you the most though and they can still be pretty entertaining!

Good luck next time. :)

Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

what Highwater said^ and that I'm amazed you started on normal and went onto challenging! but we all learn in our own way.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

@HighWater

Thank you very much for the detailed response; very helpful.

Yes, I think the Korath must have had quite a high logistics value which they apparently went on increasing, as the fleets became quite large at one point. When they demolished that 'Ranger' ship in one turn it was with about 8 or 9 ships.

I'd read about keeping the AIs in multiple front wars to weaken them, but in this game it was as if the other AIs were just inadvertently 'feeding' them with cannon fodder and giving them even more territority with each win.

Yes, attacking the weak Altarians was a big help. The capital had 3 asteroid fields right next to it too. So, that quickly became a major manufacturing centre!

I didn't realise the AI would part with planets on the diplomacy screen, well not cheaply anyway. Must try that some time.

Ah well, perhaps with a bit more experience, I might go back to this game one day to see if it can be beaten. Shame there were so many odd random events in this one though. I did a search on this forum and on Google for the Saturn class 16 13 bug and didn't find a single report of it. Maybe it was connected with the time when Mars was spored? Both planets were then radio-active toxic.

@Echelion

Well, I only went onto 'challenging' because 'normal' seemed too easy on the first game I played. Very little challenge. Maybe, it was just a good roll in that game?  Is 'challenging' really quite difficult even for experienced players?

What about 'tough'? How does that compare to 'challenging'?


Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Are you sure Mars turned radioactive, specifically? A planet spored by the Korath is supposed to turn toxic.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting qrtxian, reply 5
Are you sure Mars turned radioactive, specifically? A planet spored by the Korath is supposed to turn toxic.

Yes,  I was relying mainly on memory for the gist of the game, but I checked the last save of that game and Saturn and Mars were both toxic not radio-active, sorry.

Also, Saturn was a class 13 planet not 16 as stated earlier.

 

 

Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting QuasiMode0, reply 3
Well, I only went onto 'challenging' because 'normal' seemed too easy on the first game I played. Very little challenge. Maybe, it was just a good roll in that game?  Is 'challenging' really quite difficult even for experienced players?

What about 'tough'? How does that compare to 'challenging'?

As I couldn't explain it more in detail than what's in the wiki:

https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Difficulty_level

From personal experience I'd say that earlier on I've occasionaly struggled on Tough in unfamiliar conditions (e.g. galaxy size, race I played with) where Challenging would have been a walk in the park. Though overall I would say the difference is not that big, I've felt much more influence from which races I was up against, my location in the galaxy and the bonus tiles the AI had from the start.

Once you go above Painful (one level above Tough) I feel there's really a steeper increase in difficulty with every level.

I've always found smaller maps to be less of a challenge until you hit the higher difficulty levels, mostly because the trade-off of how aggressively to expand and how soon to start developing other planets is more complex when you're in a galaxy with dozens of habitable planets.

Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

As Noctilucus said its difficult to explain but as simply as I can put it when you setup a new game depending on what you go for can have a drastic change in the games you play! every option you tweek,even how your race is setup alters the game you will face.

eg. just turning the super abilities or the mega events on and off can make the difference between having a average game and the game from hell.

we all have our own abilities and when I started playing GC2 I went straight in on the higher levels and promptly got my backside handed to me.

There are thousands of ways to play GC2 and its up to you to find your own way but practice makes perfect and even I learn new things everytime I play.