Get your Economy Right: Advent

To be fair you have less data than he does. You just told him things he didn't take into account without knowing exactly what those numbers are. That is not data. Its possible sources of error, but we have no number to judge what effect if any they will have.

Actually prove him wrong and put up a replay with those income rates and see if they are important enough to disprove him.

Don't just join his band wagon and defend him because hes your buddy. Its no secret to those playing this game that crystal is the rarest resource and vasari have the best resource economy while the tec have the best cash economy early game.Its no secret in game that the advent needs 55 crystal for each illum while the defense vessel needs like 20.. so yeah your buying the rest from the black market for each shortage which further increases the illums cash requirement. X+Y maths too difficult for you?

I highlighted to him what he was missing which an intelligent person will figure out that its of importance and not jump the gun and say hey why don't you produce a dozen spreadsheets like yarlen has instead of playing and gaining knowledge from experience. So you need proof as to the whats the missing data? So what!? Get it yourself. If you think im right then you can accept it and if you think im wrong in my approach then you can ignore it and continue your path of noobish gameplay. Either way im in a more comfortable position playing the game than you and will continue to learn how to-stop asking to be spoon fed and stop depending on dev.exe to improve my gameplay.

A replay is a good solution to the so called nerf debate but how good is a replay to Seleuceia? Lets be perfectly honest about this issue. At his level of thinking, or yours then how will you all be able to decipher whats happening in the replay? How will you analyze the data? I can spend hours watching that rechid howthe and pro masterial play but i don't think Seleuceia has what it takes and im sorry for saying so.

Regardless of who's right, you could be a bit...  Erm..  Gentler?

*looks and sees RiddleKing is being unreasonable again*

*Sighs*

*disappears to read actually useful posts*

I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying at best you're just finding things wrong with his points without adding any helpful information to prove him wrong. The devs are going to want to see data and analysis, if you don't want them to listen to Seleuceia you'd be better making your own counter claim than calling him a moron.

And for the record.

Illuminator: 380 credits/60 metal/ 55 crystal total; 63.33/10/9.16 per fleet supply

Defense: 360 credits/40 metal/ 20 crystal total; 90/10/5 per fleet supply.

Per fleet supply, Defense vessels will only be cheaper than Illuminators if you need to use the black market and crystal prices are higher than roughly 530 credits. Perhaps you can supply us with some rough numbers of how high crystal prices are during a multiplayer game, and prove that most of the time or during a critical period it is mostly higher than that.

It's probably best to avoid buying on the black market altogether unless you're TEC.  Advent have a crappy enough economy as it is, buying lots of crystal at inflated prices is not a good idea normally, and doubly so for Advent.

The market will never hit 530 normally unless there is a price boom. The only reason it will persistently be that high is if lots of crystal is getting bought, which might be most of the time in multiplayer. If there's not an end of game statistic for market prices it might be hard to tell just how often that scenario occurs however.

Its the facepalm effect. I'll try..

1. I won't supply you with data because its spoon feeding.

2. You apply fleet supply cost after the builds which also include the temple of hostilities needed and unit research costs on top of the actual unit builds.

3. While you continue to attack the illumminator from a per unit perspective i think you should first skip data analysis and make a list of everything you need to roll out illums as fast as possible. That also inlcudes choosing to colonize ice planets first or 2 frigate factories. Everybody can crunch spreadsheet data but for what purpose is it worth if you can determine whats expensive and whats not through logic.

4.Spreadsheet data analysis involves assumptionist data like i have 2 ice planets with enough crystal so i can produce lots of illums now or i only have roids and a volcanic so i can only produce defense vessels. The economy and its spending has to based on very different scenarios and logic states that because researching crytal extraction upgrades starts at tier 3 as opposed to metal at tier two then its only logical to apply the worse case scenario where crystal is a rare resource and thus we must produce defense vessels over the illums expensive approach.

If anyone agrees with me then say so because if my logic is flawed then i urge you to keep believing dev.exe data for the purpose of your strategies.

Sorry for the double post

You can even see it:

Illums

Tier 3 tech is more expensive,

three hostility temples is more expensive

Buying crystal through the black market is more expensive with each purchase.

Add the supply fleet unlock after builds.

Plus economic scenario

Flak

flak has less cash requirements, less crystal requirements

 tier 2 tech is less expensive,

two hostility temples

free purchase with less black market purchases

apply the fleet supply after builds.

Plus economic scenario

 Did i also forget to mention that flak has a better armor type and advantage against the illum in a real game (not dev.exe) scernario where im able to field more flak than illums and overwhelm them with the defense frigates high dps value against their light armor.

Back in the diplomacy days pros like masterial where seen fielding desciples first, defense vessels second then illums last. This is no coincidence i and urge you all with whole my analyze your advent game thoroughly.

Then you don't care about making your point. You can't dismiss other people's analysis just because you're too lazy to come up with your own data. If you're right you should be thanking us for misleading the masses, giving you easier wins with your obviously better "intuition" that can magically calculate what units are better.

I haven't been keeping up with the other thread to know why a Illum vs. Corvettes thread got to defense vessels. But the extra hostility lab and slightly more expensive research are sunk costs and becomes irrelevant on a per unit costs late game with hundreds of frigates flying around. If the particular scenario you're arguing about is early game then it is more important, perhaps the most important thing.

I never said Illums were a good early unit. Rest is same as above, I'm looking at the per unit stats because that's what is always relevant. As you said, early on whether its feasible to get this or that depends a lot on game conditions at the time. All I did was prove that Seleuceia's claim that Defense vessels are more expensive under certain market conditions is true. Whether the typical multiplayer conditions prevent that from being true or the extra sunk costs of the illuminator make that irrelevant early game is for you to prove.

I didn't assume anything about the map conditions in my analysis. I simply said Illums have a 33% cheaper credit cost and a roughly twice as expensive crystal cost, as well as the required market conditions needed to displace that cost with credits. Its up to the player to take that information and adapt it to their circumstance in multiplayer. If you do have crystal to spare then the Illuminator is easily cheaper. If its not and crystal prices are always near 600 then defense vessels are more economical.

delete

what are we even arguing here?

 flack are still op after i got em nerfed?

illums are up compared to flack? 

or flack vs corvettes VS corvettes vs illums?

Its early game --so it is an important factor. Seleuceia claims the illum should be nerfed based on dev.exe data. However his claim is not accurate because the number of illums he used to test the data is based on a rich crystal economy where illums can be produced in large numbers: which is not true. Should the illum enter the battlefield early then its dwindling numbers will loose to corvettes and should they enter the game mid/late game then corvettes are usually obselete to flak and titans already. The nerf is irrelevant for its time period.

Explain how the defense vessel is more expensive late game vs the illum? For starters my magical intuition reminds me that the defense vessel uses 4 supply and the illums uses 6 while the desciple uses 4 as well.

ILLUM: 360 cash, 60 metal, 55 crystal, 6 supply

Defence Vessel: 360 cash, 40 metal, 20 crystal, 4 supply

Were talking about flak-a unit that is bulkier, hard to kill (esp under the vertigo and suppression variable) and can make quick work of illums when microed even in a 11flak vs 15illums scenario (magical intuition). This is what your typical scenario could like where i bought 11 flak and had to purchase fleet supply as opposed to 15 illums and having to purchase fleet supply.( assuming the 4 supply and 6 supply figures are wrong-which they aint).The opportunity cost of choosing to purchase illums over flak has to be considered because that cost can be deduced from you loosing your entire illum fleet. How expensive flak vs illums is always going to be a silly debate where 1 units is left standing but people claim how cheap and effeicient the dead unit is. Flak absoletely destroys corvettes so its not only the economically cheaper choice but also the most effecient unit against illums as well.

The opotunity cost of flak vs titans bears no consideration due to advents abilties such as suppression fueling defense vessels survival and thus igniting unity mass through strength in numbers.. this combination alone ensures the survival of carriers and crusaders as well.

Feel free to check my supply data.

This game has so many variables that can skew results. For example where illums start to get beam upgrades at tier 3 well the defense vessels start at tier 2 with laser.

You can't win a war of attrition or have sufficient illums in any scenario. The illum shines late game where lf has been deployed to counter flak. Its not a direct counter to corvettes or be able to ecounter dangerous numbers of corvettes so does not need the nerf.

RiddleKing has a good point - ship production depends on resources you have and random map can change these conditions, making comparisons harder. Seleuceia's argument isn't wrong in itself, but it's separated from the live game itself and thus not as reliable as one might think because he assumes that one race is capable of fielding ship X in Y numbers but that is not a hard data in itself, yet another assumtion. If you want to compare fleet sizes and achieve tested and solid results you really have to test it in a live game, as GoaFan77 has said. And by "you" I mean both of you.

moaarr data required... seriously you can't really spout numbers when the game has so many variables, if advent don't get crystal then illums are off the books.. and there are plenty of times when i've had no crystal... 

Lol RiddleKing, you are such a troll...first this:

I almost burst a gut laughing when I read this...just for the hell of it, I tried out that scenario, utilizing different micro strategies...best I could get the flak to do was kill 1 of the 15 Illuminators...I would love to see a replay of you beating 15 Illuminators with 11 Defense Vessels...

Now for the OP...

When it comes to planets, Terran HWs, moons, and uncolonizables (asteroid belt, space junk, gas giant) are the only planets to favor metal over crystal to any degree...everything else is essentially equal in that regard...

After player starts, wormholes, and pirate bases are allocated, random maps use "WeightedRandom" to fill in the rest of the map...using the entries under "WeightedRandom", the planet entity files, and an assumed average alllegiance of 90% (culture included), I estimate the ratio of metal to crystal to be 1.238...this took into account the average counts of each resource asteroid at each planet type, the difference in production between a neutral and non-neutral extractor, the probability of a given planet being spawned, and allegiance (which does not affect neutrals)...the 90% average allegiance was just an estimate...with culture, you are going to have 110% at your HW, 100% 1 jump away, and 90% 2 jumps away...quite frankly, the 90% average is probably an underestimate for an early game frontliner, but whatever...

If you wanted to look at just early game, then in fairness we should use the player start (terran HW, asteroid, moon, ice/volcanic) plus some additional planets...I'd reason that by the time you'd switch to illuminators (if appropriate given the enemy's fleet), you'd have anywhere from 1-3 additional "WeightedRandom" planets (including uncolonizables with neutrals) depending on the map layout and how pressured you are...

Doing that calculation, and again assuming an average allegiance of 90% (culture included), I estimate the average ratio of metal to crystal to be 1.31...

If you really want to see my calculations, I'll show them, but I feel then that I'd just be "spoon-feeding" you....anyway, here are the comparisons:

Ratio of metal to crystal for Illuminator: 1.09

Ratio of metal to crystal for Defense Vessel:  2.00

Likely ratio of metal to crystal income in early game: 1.31

Seems like buying crystal for the Illuminator is going to be a lot easier than buying metal for the Defense Vessel...

There are other expenses to consider, such as planet upgrades, other ships (Corvettes and LFs), planet structures (labs, extractors, frigate factories, repair bays, and beam platforms), and technologies (prototypes, colonization, culture structure, and some weapon techs)...of all those expenses, only labs and technologies cost more crystal, and you won't be getting very many labs or technologies that early in the game...compare that to the loads of planet upgrades (easily 2 if not more per planet), LFs (which are all metal, no crystal), defense vessels (2x as much metal as crystal), and tactical structures...I think you will find that your empire is in much more need of metal than it is of crystal, even more than the 1.31 ratio you can expect...if anything, the lower metal-to-crystal ratio of the Illuminator will come as a relief when compounded with all your other early game expenses...

Anyway, you entire argument relies solely on one idea: that due to market conditions and income, the crystal heavy Illuminators will actually be more expensive...

I don't believe your idea is even correct, but even if it were, Goa has already indicated the conditions necessary to make defense vessels cheaper than Illuminators...and even if those conditions are met, the cost difference between the two units is still going to be negligible...

You claimed that Defense vessels were "easier to roll out", which implies they are both cheaper and build faster...I have shown the exact opposite, that Defense vessels are more expensive and take more time to build...even if your crystal argument was valid, the cost of the units is still going to be comparable, yet defense vessels still will take 80% longer to build...Illuminators are easier to amass than defense vessels, end of story...the only situation that wouldn't be true is a situation where it is nigh impossible to get three military labs, such as some silly custom map that is entirely dead asteroids...last time I checked though, most skilled games are on random maps...

I have never said defense vessels are useless nor claimed you should build fleets that are 100% illuminators (spam implies a lot, not 100%)...in fact, many of my tests combined illuminators with their natural compliment, defense vessels...all I did was refute your claim that "Defense vessels are easier to roll out"...

This thread is 100% troll...Illuminators still require more metal than crystal, and at a ratio much closer to your likely metal-to-crystal income...FYI, most black market dealings early game involve selling resources, not buying...high metal units like LFs and Defense vessels will likely require selling of crystal, then buying of metal...Illuminators will likely only need selling of some metal, which is far more efficient...putting this into the context of other early game purchases that are credit and/or metal heavy, I find your argument completely ludicrous, and more proof that you just want to disagree with me because I'm me....

I have "tested" it in a live game, I've amassed illuminators early and coupled them with the Defense vessels I already had from the very early game...I don't do this every game as Advent, because sometimes I'm going against a player that decided to build 30 flak or 60 corvettes (in which case there are better units to build)...

I've also gone against early fleets that are predominately illuminators, and found that using gardas and/or corvettes doesn't work so well when the other person already has 30 illuminators and malice...as TEC, it is possible to win if you already have a huge advantage in numbers or have a decent corsev, but if Advent catches you with just an akkan or even slighly outnumbered you are not going to build flak and/or corvettes fast enough to win unless you have large advantages elsewhere (better feed, more factories)...as Vasari you are pretty much hosed as Illuminators and defense vessels will just eat anything you throw at them...that's my experience online, anyway...obviously RiddleKing's online play (or whatever games he plays) has taught him otherwise...

But claims about online games are just that: claims...I have supported my opinions with multiple tests and analysis...you don't have to agree with my statements and like my methodology, but at least I have something...RiddleKing here is just trolling and has nothing to support his claims, regardless of whether they are right or not...

Anyway, this whole crsytal argument is complete bogus....

Sure, maybe you are in a game where you are really low on crystal, but you are almost just as likely to be in a situation where you are really low on metal....the difference is that Defense Vessels require twice as much metal, while Illumintaors require 9% more metal...if you have no crystal, Illuminators may not be ideal but are still viable...if you have no metal, you are truly hosed if you are trying to amass units that require twice as much metal as crystal...

Resource income and map may affect which units are better to build, but units that are near equal in metal/crystal costs are going to be less vulnerable to such variability than units requiring twice as much metal...bringing resource variability to the table only highlights another advantage of Illuminators...

RiddleKing has shot himself in the foot...if you really want to consider resource variability (which can swing both ways), the metal heavy defense vessel is more likely to be a problem...and to reiterate again, the significantly longer construction time of the defense vessel will always be in effect regardless of your income....

Good rhetoric is bull without hard data to back it up.

This is wrong. We can dance all night about your poor intelligence. You are evasive and trolling--everybody here knows it. You can't just throw a us a number when the most built extractors in the game are metal even at the beginning of the game.

Siriously?

With these prices:

ILLUM: 360 cash, 60 metal, 55 crystal, 6 supply

Defence Vessel: 360 cash, 40 metal, 20 crystal, 4 supply

i do believe it was you and goa who said the defence vessel has a higher supply cost.. hmm.. let me quote:

You claim what again? Illums are cheaper because you gave me a ratio that you conjured out of the blue? Did you perhaps place your ballz in a hot jar of dev.exe and used the excitment to once again attack us with ratios and percentages?

Just admit your dumb and ill stop-otherwise i'll be annoying you all year about your noobish trolling.

construction cant happen if you don't have the money to construct the units you want noob.

Whats this in the other post? 580 seconds? So what? Wheres the money for that and is that from 1 frigate factory , 2, 3 or 4 factories. Someone can easily beat you by having one more factory..which happens alot. Seleuceia you are very amusing and im enjoying this very much.

How is the defense vessel metal heavy again?

ILLUM: 360 cash, 60 metal, 55 crystal, 6 supply

Defence Vessel: 360 cash, 40 metal, 20 crystal, 4 supply

Just look closely and come up with some more shit storm worth of trolling to keep me enjoying my evening. If i shot myself in the foot then you definitely shot yourself in the head..

I know it hurts to accept defeat vs me but your just going to have to. Its the manly thing to do than to continue wasting everyones time with dev.exe data.

Stop trying (im being generous in saying try) to defeat me. You never will even if you had a Gundam, The spear of destiny  and a Redeemer.

I said per fleet supply the Illum was cheaper in credits and the Defense vessel was cheaper on crystal. They are even in metal costs, so I don't know where Seleuceia is getting that from. Of course the Illum has a higher supply costs, which is why I always take that into account when analyzing ship stats.

If you want to argue X fleet supply of defense vessels is better than X fleet supply of illuminators now that's something else entirely, though rather pointless. Flak is going to be better in certain situation and Illums others based on what they counter.

Thank you.

In the original thread I was Arguing The same side as you Riddle, but frankly making a new thread to call someone out like this is immature before the trash talk comes into play- with said abrasive comments it's just plain petty and juvenile.

Most of the problem with trying to go with illuminator builds early game is that you can't colonize ice/volcanic anywhere near as soon as others, which means you won't have the metal/crystal to even afford illums in any number - the crystal especially is the kicker (even if you get lucky with a nearby desert or terran with a small militia that can give you the extra logistics slot and income, it'll still put you significantly behind). If you then want to try and colonize ice/volcanic, good luck having more than one factory to produce ships from any time soon unless you are also spending more on upgrading logisitics slots. Factor in their increased supply costs, and you really need to be left alone for a long period in order to get any eco up to support their production. Defense vessels and Carriers at 2 labs are just a better option I find - especially vs. the fleets of corvettes and LRFs that you are likely to be encountering soon. That third temple of hostility really does make a big difference - in cost, time, logistics slots, and delaying ice/volcanic colonization.

Edit: Also not sure why we need 2 threads for this. I'm dying for the balance patch so we'll at least have something different to talk about.

I could always say " He started it!" but that wud still be immature. I know your right but now that its happened, case closed and lets move on.

Don't expect me to apologize to him or anything girlish like that. He better learn2play.

And the End Times were spoken of as a time "where brother turned upon brother"

The troll brothers have turned on their own kind.