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Rebellion Balance Verdict, a Review in Full by [DT]Radioactive.

Rebellion Balance Verdict, a Review in Full by [DT]Radioactive.

So, I have put much time and energy into playing the game for the sole purpose of examining the balance in Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion.  Here are my findings:

 

Race Balance:

TEC: Overall, I am fairly pleased with how the TEC has emerged into Rebellion.  Currently, Both the TEC Rebels have their fare share of advantages and drawbacks.  At the end of the day, I believe that the TEC Rebels have a slight edge on the TEC Loyalists.  This is because I generally think that the TEC Rebel Titan is more effective at killing corvette spam when used with proper micro.  The Loyalists do not give enough advantage for an eco start.  I almost wish that instead of easier access to the Novalith cannons, the TEC Loyalists would have cheaper trade ports (750 credits, 100 metal, 125 crystal).  I get that the TEC Loyalist is designed to be mainly defensive and a superweapon focus, but from a lore standpoint and a game standpoint this does not make much sense to me at all.  If they are the Loyalists, why are they digging in if their race is in rebellion?  Shouldn't they be the aggressors trying to reunite their race?  Seems backwards to me, maybe I'm crazy.

Bottom Line: TEC Loyalists should be the one subfaction that gets cheaper trade ports for an enhanced eco start.  Based on my observation and discussion with other top tier players, TEC Rebels seems to be the more popular of the two subfactions.

Advent: I think Advent is the outright weakest faction overall, and the Advent Loyalist subfaction is simply pathetic.  The Advent Loyalist titan is terrible, and they only have 1 unique tier 8 tech, and it is pretty pathetic.  Damage boost in culture?  Really?  That's what you have to look forward to late game as the Advent Loyalists, I mean that's it.  You look at other races like the Vasari whose subfactions have unique tier 7 weapons upgrades that give MASSIVE damage boosts, and the Advent Loyalists have only a feeble 5% damage boost in its own culture.  Amazingly, the Advent Rebels have 0 unique tier 8 techs, and are still better than the Advent Loyalists, simply on the merit of their titan alone.  I just don't understand how the other factions and sub factions could get such cool end tier stuff, and an Advent player has almost nothing new to look forward too.

Bottom Line: Part of what made Advent playable in Diplomacy was it's advantage in the "tier 0" or immediate early game, where the combination of disciples, scouts, and defense vessels was pretty mean.  Now, everybody can get corvettes easily and the Advent lost it's early game advantage.  It is now the weakest in the early game, mid game, and late game, and the combination of those three means that, yep you guessed it, the weakest over all.  I used to like to go random, but rolling advent is such a disadvantage that I don't do it anymore.  I would suggest:

  • Tier 0 corvettes (does not require a military lab)
  • Each subfaction gets "elite" damage upgrades.  For example, the Rebels get a fourth grouping of upgrades for laser and plasma weapons, while the Loyalists get a fourth group of upgrades for beam weapons.  This makes sense after you gave the Vasari and the TEC a similar opportunity.
  • More unique techs in general.  Seriously how could it be that there is no tier 8 unique weapons tech for the Advent Rebels?  How does this make any sense?  The unique techs that are there are barely worth getting.
  • A great example for the Advent Rebels could be allowing them to use their repair platforms to repair shield and hull damage. I have always thought the Advent to be at a big disadvantage purely because they can heal less of the total health of their ships.
  • Total rehaul of the Advent Loyalist Titan (seriously... wtf)
  • Total rehaul of the Revelation Battlecruiser, this thing is so incredibly terrible I think the only time I would build one is by mistake.
  • The antimatter cost of the "Fracture" ability on the Discord Battleship should probably be increased to 55 or 60 because it really is a terrific ability and the Discord is probably my favorite new capital ship.

Vasari: I seriously just don't know what the developers were thinking when they developed the Vasari for Rebellion.  This race badly needed some beta adjustments that it never got because the beta was unplayable with minidumps and desyncs.  The Vasari Loyalists and Rebels come in ranking #1 and #2 respectively of all of the subfactions.  The Vasari Loyalists are so terribly broken with "Strip to the Core" that most hosts with the slightest desire for balance ban players from choosing Vasari.  There is almost nothing good about the ability.  It takes away late game strategy by destroying planets logistic slots and gives way too many resources and credits.  More on this and how to fix it in the bottom line.  The Vasari Rebels are awesome, but due to the sheer brokenness of the Loyalists, they are overshadowed.  The Moving Starbases, massive late game phase missiles makes this race a huge competitor.

Bottom Line:The Vasari are overpowered.  Not just a little bit, they are broken.  I really can't think of many disadvantages besides having to make two weapons labs to research the early game corvettes, but even this is hardly a disadvantage.  So many changes need to be made I will break the "what needs to be done" into two sections.

For the Loyalists:

  • Strip to the Core just needs to be removed.  There is no way to balance this ability that will make it fit in with the rest of the game.  It just dumbs down the game to have so many planets deemed worthless except for extractors.  If even 2 people play the Loyalists on a Huge Random Single Star, 40 minutes in, 1/3 of the planets or more could be gone for the rest of the game.  This just ruins the game for me almost completely.  The other three techs that lead up to the Strip to the Core are still good enough where I would consider getting them without the possibility of core stripping.
  • If the Strip to the Core stays in the game, it should take three minutes instead of one, to force people to kill at least the siege frigates before leaving.  This should also not be affected by the "Improved Salvaging ability".  It should also give half the credits and a third of the resources.  The tech itself should be a tier 8 tech, and shipboard labs should be a tier 6 one.
  • The Level 6 ability on the Vasari Loyalist Titan is really pretty silly.  Named "The Maw", it is admittedly the only redeeming quality of an otherwise pathetic titan, but SERIOUSLY? The immediate destruction of all nearby enemy ships, and on top of it extra resources!  After all the fuss about how OP the avoidable missile barrage was back in vanilla sins, I don't know how this ability snuck past quality assurance.  At least give the victim of the Maw a chance to escape if he is paying attention.
  • The Tier 8 tech "Accelerated Wave Cannons" is maybe too big of an upgrade for wave cannons.  I don't know how it seems wise to grant 40% extra weapon damage in two techs.  This ideally should be halved, so goes from 30%->40% and then 40%->50% on the second tech.
  • The Vasari Loyalist Titan spawning phase stabilizers on "Capital Victory" mode is pretty rediculous.  This combined with Kostura Cannons makes it almost impossible to defend your home planet.  Player A fires Kostura at Player B homeworld, lays down a phase stabilizer, and then streams ships into the homeworld until there is nothing the defending player can do.
  • Returning Armada needs to be fixed.

For the Rebels:

  • My First complaint is they have 0 unique techs in the Empire tree, yes, 0.
  • Secondly, Jumping Starbases is, a little broken without some limitations.  I propose that there be a cooldown on the jump timer, and that After you research the jumping ability, it also takes up an upgrade slot on the starbase.  I think the upgrade cost should be proportional to 2700 credit level of upgrades.  Another possibility is no cooldown on the jumping and making the upgrade also include a capital ship supply and 100 fleet supply.
  • I also think the "Phasic Strike" tier 3 tech in the Warfare tree should not affect starbases.
  • The tier 8 Armor-Hull combo upgrade for the Rebels is amazing, but too much so.  It should be broken to 4.0 Armor and 20% hull and in two techs, so each tech does 2.0 armor and 10% hull increase.

Overall:

  • It seems like nobody put any legitimate thought into the Rankulas, and you ran out of time and were just like, "let's put 3 abilities that are pretty unoriginal.

 

Ship Balance:

Flak: These ships should never have been nerfed as badly as they were.  The reason corvettes seem overpowered is that the best counter, Flak, got nerfed into oblivion.  I think the Flak need to be buffed again, and then the corvette spam will meet its match quicker and there won't be massive battles of 200 corvettes vs 200 corvettes.

Corvettes: I don't really like corvettes, but I am getting used to them.  I think they are too good at countering too many dfiferent kinds of ships.  The only ships that I tihnk they are really weak against is flak, but they counter pretty much every other kind of ship out there.  I propose:

  • The Corvettes should remain a viable counter to Long Range Frigates and Titans.
  • The Corvettes should do less damage vs light frigates, heavy cruisers, and capital ships.
  • The Corvettes should struggle against flak.
  • The Corvettes should cost 10% more across the board.
  • They even the playing field in fighting for neutrals, to the point where it takes one of the classic advantages of the vasari away because of corvettes strength against scouts.  One possible thing you could experiment with is making scouts a little more powerful so the Vasari player does not feel like he cannot fight far away for neutrals because the closer Advent and TEC players can pump out corvettes and keep him away with relative ease.
  • Ideally, corvettes should have their own armor and damage types to make balancing them a lot easier.

 

Comments, Criticism, Insults are welcome.

 

[DT] Radioactive.

272,207 views 95 replies
Reply #51 Top

Quoting crisaron, reply 49
Well if you loose a planet to a player you did something bad and whether or not he strips it, there is a chance you can retake it or loose the next one... you are already on the defensive.

If he strips is own planet eventually he will have less income then you, because he won;t have population on it. You then need to kill is capital and he will loose is research lab, is income, etc.

 

 The loyalist is based around is cap ships and is remaining station feeding him income. If you hunt is stations and take out the ones with trade ports or the ones with colony pod, he will be hard press over time to make income, especially if you keep primary  fire on is capships which become is "planets + lab".

 

A tech rebel titan can take out is cap ships and curb is econ quite fast. Now if you power turtle and let him eat half the map then you may have a problem.

A tech rebel can put twin stations insuring a hard nut to crack at each bottle neck well and then expend to is backyard too preventing a gate jump.. to easily take over a planet to strip it...

 

Advent have plenty of nice synergy to eat fleets anyway...

 

The game is far from balanced with all the other aspect you talked about but strip the core is not that bad... it hard and harsh! But so is a lot of the new powers...

The problem with strip to core is that you build up a fleet so fast that they won't even have the time to build up enough eco to counter you.

You could be in a suicide/kamikaze slot and not have any worries as soon as you're able to rush strip to core and move into the uncontested center.

Capital ships vunerable? Just hide them in your allies territory if you're so worried. Having a 2000 supply fleet in like 30 minutes is good enough to just roflstomp everybody at that time.

You can't rush enough eco to even match not even with TEC Rebels TAR in the eco slot before the Vasari Loyalists fleets start rolling into your territory. And whatever planets he manages to get and he will get a lot he'll just eat leaving you with nothing.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting Daaaniel, reply 51
I was thinking of getting rebellion, and then i read this post. Seems like a waste of money right now, im so disappointed they made advent even worse. If any faction needed some love from Diplomacy, it was the advent. 

Hey man! Would be great to have you back in rebellion, I am pretty sure many of my suggestions willl be included in some form in rebellion.

Reply #53 Top

Hey I just against removing it altogether, the game definitively needs balance.

Reply #54 Top

Advent rebel seem to be the most picked race out of the tec and advent factions. Iwouldnt call that, "advent got worse".

Reply #55 Top

Quoting Pbhead, reply 55
Advent rebel seem to be the most picked race out of the tec and advent factions. Iwouldnt call that, "advent got worse".
Well that's mainly because of that tech that increases shield regeneration with 100% and the fact that their titan has this overpowered Chastic Burst ability. Other then that, they are still a bit weak compared with the other races.

Reply #56 Top

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 56
Well that's mainly because of that tech that increases shield regeneration with 100%

But it only works it culture and regeneration bonuses aren't even that good in combat... :S

Reply #57 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 57

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 56Well that's mainly because of that tech that increases shield regeneration with 100%

But it only works it culture and regeneration bonuses aren't even that good in combat...

Advent rebel Protection of the Unity works anywhere, not just in culture. And you are on crack, its an AMAZING tech when you combine it with culture bonuses and the shield techs.

Reply #58 Top

Quoting Elrosh, reply 58
Advent rebel Protection of the Unity works anywhere, not just in culture. And you are on crack, its an AMAZING tech when you combine it with culture bonuses and the shield techs.

It's only in culture based on the research...

researchModifier
modifierType "CultureShieldRegenAmount"
baseValue 0.000000
perLevelValue 0.333333

 

Reply #59 Top

Advent Rebels have awesome titan, repulse, and wail....gives you lots of options and flexibility...

Reply #60 Top

Quoting Elrosh, reply 58
Advent rebel Protection of the Unity works anywhere, not just in culture. And you are on crack, its an AMAZING tech when you combine it with culture bonuses and the shield techs.

I know what I'm talking about. The game files Zombie quoted say clearly its only in culture (and I've asked a Dev too).

And the default passive regeneration rate of even the Crusader is only 2 shields per second. Maxed out shield tech thats 2.6 per second. So maxing out that tech all the way means you double it to 5.2. Not that amazing in combat, though its a nice help to get your damaged fleets back to combat ready.

Now capitalships and titans can get much higher base shield regeneration as they level, so it can have a much bigger impact here, and is really the only reason to get this tech. But its not going to be a huge deal on your average fleet and certainly not worth getting ASAP.

Reply #61 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 60
Advent Rebels have awesome titan, repulse, and wail....gives you lots of options and flexibility...

Repulse is fine, but wasn't added with Rebellion. The point is when you compare what was actually added with Rebellion for Advent when compared to Vasari and TEC you sorta scratch your head and go huh?

Reply #62 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1
I think you're a little harsh on the Maw and Accelerated Wave cannons. The Ragnarov or Eradica is probably going to inflict much more damage overall with their AoEs even if the Maw is an instant kill, and you have to wait until level 6 to get it. And Accelerated wave cannons need that big of a bonus to make Enforcers worth building more than assailants or bombers with phase missiles. Also, nothing on Nano Leach?

Otherwise I mostly agree, glad I'm not the only one who though Armor restoration will need to be nerfed a bit once the really OP things get removed.

 

Personally I don't think he is being harsh enough. The maw should either be removed or reworked. I have said it before I will say it again. Fleet wiping abilities are a cancer to this game. This includes the Ragnarov and Eradica AoE's.

 

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 62

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 60Advent Rebels have awesome titan, repulse, and wail....gives you lots of options and flexibility...

Repulse is fine, but wasn't added with Rebellion. The point is when you compare what was actually added with Rebellion for Advent when compared to Vasari and TEC you sorta scratch your head and go huh?


Repulse makes the Advent fleet invulnerable. It also makes Advent vs Advent retarded.

Reply #63 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 61

Quoting Elrosh, reply 58Advent rebel Protection of the Unity works anywhere, not just in culture. And you are on crack, its an AMAZING tech when you combine it with culture bonuses and the shield techs.

I know what I'm talking about. The game files Zombie quoted say clearly its only in culture (and I've asked a Dev too).

And the default passive regeneration rate of even the Crusader is only 2 shields per second. Maxed out shield tech thats 2.6 per second. So maxing out that tech all the way means you double it to 5.2. Not that amazing in combat, though its a nice help to get your damaged fleets back to combat ready.

Now capitalships and titans can get much higher base shield regeneration as they level, so it can have a much bigger impact here, and is really the only reason to get this tech. But its not going to be a huge deal on your average fleet and certainly not worth getting ASAP.

 

Makes a huge difference on the Eradica, and capital ships too. When I get the 100% shield regen early, I can have my capital ships alone taking planets and coming out with full shields. As for the Eradica, I sometimes watch it fight with other ships, see the shields go down a few hundred, go look at something else, then come back and the shields are full again, just like magic.

Reply #64 Top

best thing about advent rebel is thier awesome corvette... ya sillies.

Reply #65 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 63
Personally I don't think he is being harsh enough. The maw should either be removed or reworked. I have said it before I will say it again. Fleet wiping abilities are a cancer to this game. This includes the Ragnarov and Eradica AoE's.

They're over powered right now, but at the same time something has to counter fleets. I kind of like having some powerful crowd control available to make capitalships more viable. And as it stands right now if AoEs were removed people would just build more corvettes...

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 64
Makes a huge difference on the Eradica, and capital ships too. When I get the 100% shield regen early, I can have my capital ships alone taking planets and coming out with full shields. As for the Eradica, I sometimes watch it fight with other ships, see the shields go down a few hundred, go look at something else, then come back and the shields are full again, just like magic.

Yeah, I do get this tech just for that, just late game. The Eradica has 5.4 shields restored per second base at level 1, which gets to about 13 at level 10. So with the +30% from shield research that's almost 17. Now doubling that to 34 per second is a substantial bonus, but again it only works in culture. And I wouldn't research it until I had an Eradica already built, so despite being tier 2 I see it as a mid/late game tech.

Reply #66 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 66
Yeah, I do get this tech just for that, just late game. The Eradica has 5.4 shields restored per second base at level 1, which gets to about 13 at level 10. So with the +30% from shield research that's almost 17. Now doubling that to 34 per second is a substantial bonus, but again it only works in culture. And I wouldn't research it until I had an Eradica already built, so despite being tier 2 I see it as a mid/late game tech.

 

Understandable, but I rather get it sooner than late, as you said, so my ships can get back in the fight faster. Repair bays only repair hulls until late game, and Advent ships without shields aren't going to last long in battle. ( Talking about my capital ships here )

Reply #67 Top

The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion  :blush:

Reply #68 Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68
The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

Reply #69 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 69

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

 

Anyone else realize that the Discord Battleship's Fracture + Psionic Scream is basically a half-powered Chastic Burst for the early game?

I find it rather useful against Corvettes.

Reply #70 Top

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 70

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 69
Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

 

Anyone else realize that the Discord Battleship's Fracture + Psionic Scream is basically a half-powered Chastic Burst for the early game?

I find it rather useful against Corvettes.

 

Most certainly, but to be honest I dont find corvette difficult to counter in the early game. Its better to max fracture so this way Chastic Burst can do its full payload. And with repulsion your fleet will be unkillable. But you are correct it is good against corvettes.

Reply #71 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 71

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 70
Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 69
Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

 

Anyone else realize that the Discord Battleship's Fracture + Psionic Scream is basically a half-powered Chastic Burst for the early game?

I find it rather useful against Corvettes.

 

Most certainly, but to be honest I dont find corvette difficult to counter in the early game. Its better to max fracture so this way Chastic Burst can do its full payload. And with repulsion your fleet will be unkillable. But you are correct it is good against corvettes.

 

Yeah, the armor debuff is awesome. I usually max both Fracture and Scream on my ( first ) Discord, and two points in Revenge from Beyond.

Reply #72 Top

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 72

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 71
Quoting Pat_22_, reply 70
Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 69
Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

 

Anyone else realize that the Discord Battleship's Fracture + Psionic Scream is basically a half-powered Chastic Burst for the early game?

I find it rather useful against Corvettes.

 

Most certainly, but to be honest I dont find corvette difficult to counter in the early game. Its better to max fracture so this way Chastic Burst can do its full payload. And with repulsion your fleet will be unkillable. But you are correct it is good against corvettes.

 

Yeah, the armor debuff is awesome. I usually max both Fracture and Scream on my ( first ) Discord, and two points in Revenge from Beyond.

 

Personally you will reap more rewards from lethargy against titans than if you were to max scream.

Reply #73 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 73

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 72
Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 71
Quoting Pat_22_, reply 70
Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 69
Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

I dont think defending against Repulsion was ever in question.

 

Anyone else realize that the Discord Battleship's Fracture + Psionic Scream is basically a half-powered Chastic Burst for the early game?

I find it rather useful against Corvettes.

 

Most certainly, but to be honest I dont find corvette difficult to counter in the early game. Its better to max fracture so this way Chastic Burst can do its full payload. And with repulsion your fleet will be unkillable. But you are correct it is good against corvettes.

 

Yeah, the armor debuff is awesome. I usually max both Fracture and Scream on my ( first ) Discord, and two points in Revenge from Beyond.

 

Personally you will reap more rewards from lethargy against titans than if you were to max scream.

 

That's what the second Discord is for. For lack of experience against player-controlled Titans, I can't really say " well I think this is better " but yeah, so far I think I prefer scream. I'll have Titans and Bombers deal with other Titans

Reply #74 Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 68
The most awesome race right now is the Advent rebels when their titan rolls out..

I still lol  when Chastic burst hits ships with malice and fracture active.. absolutely hilarious how a 70 frigate fleet turns to 20 then to 0 within minutes. Other than that your pretty much vulnerable until you get your titan.

 

The best defense against chastic burst is group shield, suppression and Shield projection. If your not using this then your going to cry like a baby aka Mayall communion 

 

Yeah, I almost feel like maybe the AR titan needs a slight nerf.

Reply #75 Top

Quoting Nightraid3r, reply 75
Yeah, I almost feel like maybe the AR titan needs a slight nerf.

It will once Vasari get nerfed...wail and eradica will be prime targets for nerfing after the next balance patch.....