Discovering Religion, the series

There are no acceptable arguments that a religious fundamentalist will (or can) accept regardless of evidence or proof to the contrary. To these people, there is only one source of truth and knowledge … end of story. Proof is meaningless to these people simply because they require no proof themselves, whatsoever, to form their own complete world view. Just try and converse with someone like Lulapilgrim and you will understand this immediately. Regardless of how much godly authority one places on the bible, the purpose of the Jesus myth is fairly straight foreword even if it is as illogical as the rest of the bible. Evolution alone disproves the need or use for a Jesus figure so even liberal moderates must somehow rationalize the creation myth as fact else there was no original sin and no need of some mystical savior.

Discovering Religion 3: Purpose of Christ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dsz9erURvo&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLD4D67468DDB4F43B

Where to start??? Before the Fall of the first Adam, there was no death and every living creature lived for however long (?) on green plants alone …? Carnivores, yea that is something to contemplate … leaf eating carnivores go figure. The bible states that people and animals etc. were created in their present form many of which have the wrong absolutely anatomical necessities necessary to survive in veggie land. The only thing that comes to mind here is the rabbit and the strange way it deals with digestive problems, catch my meaning. I just have a lot of problems contemplating a veggie diet for lions, tigers, sharks and T-Rex to name but a few. I wonder how many kilos of vegies would have sated a full grown Tyrannosaurus Rex or how did they feed their young on vegetables … but who really cares because this just isn’t true.

Discovering Religion: Episode 04 -The Flood (1 of 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1wzD-4R2Ks&feature=autoplay&list=PL70E757541E8576D7&playnext=3

The problem encountered trying to refute nonsense with facts and reason is that the ‘facts’ take on a mystical life of their own and the reasons are normally just moot points. Who in their right mind would even want to know what conditions on earth would have been like with a five mile high totally encompassing body of water covering everything? Water chemistry and temperature alone would annihilate virtually everything that swims, crawls, walks, flies or grows anywhere on earth (or inside it) because earthly environments are quite fragile as most of us learned in science class. They take tens of thousands of years to create and even more time to cultivate (evolution) the critters best suited for survival in specific environmental niches around the planet. I cannot even contemplate the weather under such unrealistic conditions. There would have been nothing to counteract the effects of the moon and tides and I can only assume horrendous weather which defies description and without anything to abate the ferocity well who knows. We have the math to provide usable figures, but they are for the most part useless because of cause and effect. Under these preposterous conditions, sea level would have been subjected to 11,962.55067437475 psi just due to the water column alone (assuming a reasonable water density). Who knows what would happen to the displaced atmosphere or its effect on things. With a depth on 5 miles below sea level things would have been subjected to 23,925.1013487495 psi. But one thing is certain, just taking the water away (somehow) would not present an environment that would be conducive to life as we know it and the billions of years necessary to produce it would start anew … without people of course.

Discovering Religion: Episode 04 -The Flood (2 of 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLdIJACeva4&feature=autoplay&list=PL70E757541E8576D7&playnext=4

What is the purpose of the Jesus myth, as you call it?

What the purpose is for any myth I suppose depends on the individual. I am not opposed to just Christianity, but it is getting monotonous trying to mention Judaism, Christianity and Islam every time. I view myths as stories about somebody who or something that is fictitious or nonexistent, but whose existence is widely believed in but cannot be proven to exist or act out in the real world. In this modern age, myths are mostly used to amuse (or not as with Christianity) children who haven’t learned better yet or who have been deceived by their authority figures. Most adults do not keep a book of fairy tale by their bedside for enjoyable reading or for enlightenment … except for the bible. And therein lays the Jesus myth with all the magic and impossible exploits that defies any logic as all myths are renowned for. God cannot be proven to exist anymore than say Peter Pan can.

Who did you learn better from?  Why are they more reliable than this book that has been around for a long time?  What warning bells are going off for you in Genesis?  Are you going to read or have you read Mere Christianity?  Do you know that some Catholics are not saved either, but just 'religious' and doing to try to get into heaven?  What is the purpose of Jesus, according to Christianity?  Do you know these things, and still reject them?  I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from here.  You keep saying that the Bible can't be true, but how are your sources any better?

When was the last time (or first) you and this god of yours had a one-on-one? If you haven't had one as you stated elsewhere, then god has told you absolutely nothing. It is my opinion that no Catholics are going to heaven silly, I am an atheist. I went to school for more years than I like to reflect on but it is the only way to quash mysticism and purported magical happenings in the lives of man, the planet and the universe. Show me a math book or a physics book that you pick and choose which parts to believe in and which not to? You cannot rip any of them apart because all the pieces fit and work together in perfect unison, cover to cover. The reason you can’t is because they are tried and true and completely correct, end of story.  And if you aren't 'doing it' just to get into heaven yourself ... then why are you? Is it fair to assume you are a creationist then since you see no ambiguity in say Genesis 1 and 2? If so, how can I even discuss evolution with you because you have already thrown it out? And besides all you can have are silly unfounded arguments against it without the least regard for the hard work of millions of scientists throughout the world and the ages. I don’t have that problem because science just doesn’t need a god to explain anything either. What could some uneducated Bronze Age peasant sheep herding Jews know about the universe let alone the making of it when they thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of it, go figure. My sources are verifiable and repeatable and you have a book literally composed by cave men thousands of years ago when what, man was enlightened somehow. Most any non-religious encyclopedia will do just fine for me … and you have your book, whatever.

Most of the problems I encounter dealing with religious folk who take their bible literally are related to their fundamental inability to comprehend (or desire to) what the sciences are about or how they conduct their trade. Most don’t even seem to want to try and understand and that is the problem with absolutes, they require no understanding at all (just blind faith and absolute subservience) and offer no compassion for the human condition. This clip can show how scientific theories differ from societal theories which almost exclusively deal in chance and probability and usually amounts to wistful thinking without reasonable facts. The next clip starts deals with evolution so keep your sox on, that should be something else.

Discovering Religion: Ep 05 - Semantics of Science   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCfisy2FFbw&list=PL1304B00CFE5CBA41&index=6&feature=plpp_video

Well this is the real deal, the sore point ... evolution. Ray Comfort and ex-heartthrob Kirk Cameron are a disgrace to the human species, about all I will say on creationism right now. Does the word 'honesty' have no fundamental meaning in religious truth circles? If the religious community doesn't speak out over this kind of utter rubbish, then I will. It is utter rubbish!!! I know Christians know what a long time is because most expect to spend eternity (whatever that is) in heaven where I guess it will be one parable after another or continuous bible recitations … for eternity mind you. Sorry I digress.

Just an observation: how could anyone live anywhere for eternity when the universe has an actual start date (brfore which there was nothing) somewhere between 5,000 and 13.7 billion years ago which would cut eternity at least in half right, whatever, just a moot point?

But bananas today are a domestic fruit redesigned by man through evolutionary processes … for man, no god required. All I can say is that if you are conflicted by evolution then you have no honest scientific prowess and are likely comfortable with something simple like … god did everything … incognito.

Most Christians appear to at least comprehend (how could they not?) that microevolution at least has merrit but macroevolution is just too much, geese.  How about this then … microevolution over the billions the of years required (an actual real long time) alone (the truth) would eventually produce something different … unless evolution somehow capitulates to circular theological logic too and keeps reverting forwards and backwards just to appease Christianity, get a life.

Ep 06 - Theory of Evolution (UK Version)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e21fIs1Payw&list=PL1304B00CFE5CBA41&index=7&feature=plpp_video

Reason doesn’t seem to have anything to do with creationism (or ID) or their arguments most of which modern secular kindergarteners would dismiss outright as bologna. Flimsy attempts is just plain too nice for my tastes.  Come on, if you religious folk want to be taken seriously then you might want to try and be serious yourself for a change. A crock-a-duck, give it a break. My-oh-my, a modern society filled with stupid scientists out ‘knowledged’ by intelligent paranoid superstitious cave men … what a world view that suggests. These clips are about as mild as I could find to express my distaste for religious dogma … the absolute truth about everything which is absolutely meaningless in the real world.

Discovering Religion: Ep 07 - Transitional Species   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpW7nQl3-D4&feature=bf_next&list=PL1304B00CFE5CBA41

The argument that random chance over billions of years(which may or may not have happened) got life to this state, while leaving some life in other states, that it came up with life at all without someone designing it, is a lot easier to dismiss for a kindergartener.

There is nothing accurate or honest in this statement. This is just another example of intellectual dishonesty unless you really believe that NO randomness or chance occurred anywhere during the development of our fauna, flora and geology. You and others of like mind (and motivation) are the ones making these kinds of ridiculous statements most of which have little to do with how evolution works at all. Other than creationist appeasers, I don’t know of any dedicated scientist who even remotely suggests that evolution took place because of one process. Name ONE???

The next few episodes are basically continuations of evolution so I won’t post them here. Discovering Religion: Episode 10 – Neanderthal, will be next though.

Evolution doesn't work.  That's the problem.  There are no known times when a species became another species.  There's no evidence for it.  Just conjecture.  Evolution doesn't work the way you want it to.  All deviations that have ever been found have been negative deviations.  There are no positive mutations.  That's the way chaos works.  Chaos does not turn into order given any period of time.  It only devolves into further chaos.  You make assumptions that it, at one point, wasn't like this.  Well, so do we.  The difference is, I think we were created, and you think we evolved.  Okay, fine.  Why can't we replicate it?  Not enough time?  Too much time?  Continuing to go down the path of evolutionary research will continue to prove that all mutations are negative, simply because in the beginning, we were made perfect.  So keep researching.

End of conversation.

Whenever I see a “Flintstones” reference I have to laugh: Creationists look at such things as a documentary on early Christian life, I am more of a “Jetsons” kind a girl and prefer to look ahead myself … ok sorry I couldn’t help myself. There was one in the beginning of this clip and it was the Flintstones... Seriously though, there were no biblical cave men to my knowledge because we were supposedly made in our present image (red, yellow, black, white etc.) fully cognizant. But there are supposed to be dinosaurs buried somewhere in the good book. Who do creationists think drew all the beautiful artwork found in many caves … if it wasn’t infantile humanity learning to use crayons just like our preschool children do even today (they were just larger but with a smaller brain capacity). I was mistaken on several points concerning Neanderthals and glad I did some additional research online to clear them up.

Discovering Religion: Ep 10 – Neanderthal   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeTQ7Igu_Jw

 

There is just too much good information in this clip … I don’t know how to summarize it without just copying the script. If you are interested in the recent history of mankind (last 8 million years) I highly recommend that you review it. It is quite clear but covers so much so quickly that I had to pause often just to try and keep up. Human evolution 1.01, enjoy.

Discovering Religion: Ep 11 - Human Origin   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHxy_wTJfgU

Oh where to start? I guess this is the only way I can have a belated conversation with you, amazing that!

Evolution doesn't work.  That's the problem.  Why it doesn’t work, would convey more useful information than your opinion. There are no known times when a species became another species.  Why should there be? Evolutionary theory suggests no such thing because it is impossible without magic. There's no evidence for it.  Just conjecture.  The only conjecturing going on here is your misinformation concerning evolutionary theory. Evolution doesn't work the way you want it to.  I don’t want evolution to work out ‘some way’ it is way independent of anything I may believe so it goes without saying for the value of your tainted opinion. I do get confused at some of the things you attribute to me personally??? All deviations that have ever been found have been negative deviations.  I believe the definition of a deviation is a variance from the normal or expected, circumstance determines the +/- implications. That’s why they recalibrate their equipment and retest. That’s why they use alternative methods for verification and there are quite a few. There are no positive mutations.  That's the way chaos works.  Chaos does not turn into order given any period of time.  It only devolves into further chaos. You are just on your own with this brilliance???  You make assumptions that it, at one point, wasn't like this.  I don’t make assumptions without a preponderance of the evidence, you do and without any at all. At what point wasn’t what like what? Is it possible to be less informative? Well, so do we.  By we, I assume you mean Christians only and weren’t we discussing assumptions here? What assumptions have you had to make? The difference is, I think we were created, and you think we evolved.  Okay, fine.  OK fine my arse and you know it. I believe we have evolved based on available evidence not because someone told me too or not. That won’t change in my lifetime. Why can't we replicate it? I don’t think you understand this at all. You don’t replace a scientific theory, you modify it, you make corrections as necessary and you republish it again just to go through even more dubious peer scrutiny.  You have no idea at all of the turmoil that would result if only one ‘scientific theory’ were just proved just to be wrong. If we had something more reliable why wouldn’t we alter it? Not enough time?  Too much time?  Continuing to go down the path of evolutionary research will continue to prove that all mutations are negative, simply because in the beginning, we were made perfect.  So keep researching. You are on your own with this mumbo-jumbo too; it is too incoherent to respond to???

We could pick up a conversation from 5 months ago that you believe was too incoherent to respond to, or we could move on with ours lives instead...   even Answers in Genesis admits that these arguments are not proven at this time, but I happened to make them before I read that particular post.  So I was wrong on my arguments.

It has been 2,000 years man what good is more time going to do here? We are talking (your perspective) the beginning of your ‘everything’ … and you need more time???

When I post, I use information I understand to be true because I have researched it and I assume others do the same. I just don’t rely on anyone else to make my decisions for me and I don’t rely on anyone else to back them up for me either. I don’t understand how you can say you were in error because you didn’t read what someone else, whom you do not even know, wrote???  I am not trying to pick on you but the Christians have claimed for well over a thousand years that the bible is the infallible word of their god. I am not one to take that lightly even if you are. I know how you feel about the Jews and the OT, but that is not an option open for you and you would know that if you gave it more thought. I am not unversed with the bible and what it actually says so you need to stop thinking I am. I could make a much better case against evolution than you just because I understand it, but I would be lying and I cannot do that. I understand there are many ‘gaps’ but you don’t measure anything by the ‘gaps’, you measure them by what you know. The god of the ‘gaps’ is getting smaller all the time. What is there for us to discuss?

 

This is the same argument used in the Dover trial that proved without a doubt that evolution is a fact insofar as man is involved. Jythier, I am sorry that you cannot view these clips but surely you don’t blame me???

Discovering Religion: Ep 12 - Arrival of Man   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUh_C-pwWQo

Lula, I don't know if you are following this thread or not, but I think episode #5 from post # 7 is fundamentally important from a scientific point of view. I would like to hear your arguments against the scientific method and especially why it is nonfunctional or absurd.

The predictive power of evolution is driving the cutting edge of medicine today as well as in many other fields of research. We are trying to correct past mistakes made before evolutionary theory was properly applied while trying not to make similar mistakes.  If there are reasonable arguments against evolution I don’t know what they are and I am tired of ‘it just cannot be”. I don’t think creationists can argue about any of it to be honest … so they spend all their time telling us why nothing real is believable … as they quote scripture as their only defense??? With the internet and all available today well this just does not compute?

Discovering Religion: Ep 13 - Predictive Power of Evolution   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nDcN9gRhfw

I just do not understand the grandeur of sitting back and trying very hard not to learn anything constructive and repeating for almost all questions ‘god did it’ … ? If the stipulation were made that “god did indeed do everything (somehow)” it wouldn’t change anything. Any and all attempts to discover natures details for ourselves would still be vehemently opposed as ‘infringing’ on god’s knowledge or ‘it’s not in the bible’ and therefore not meant for mere humans or some other such nonsense. When the mood strikes me I can spend quite some time paging through an encyclopedia in a state of wonder at what we have discovered about nature and the world around us. The universe is a vast mysterious and hostile environment but the beauty of it is staggering. I feel sorry for those who refuse to acknowledge the wonders of the evolutionary process as anything besides god done it.

Discovering Religion: Ep 24 - Evolution of Morality & Survival of the Fittest   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZDdhupo3JI&list=PL70E757541E8576D7

PS - this is the last of this series to date but more are projected in the future