[Feedback][.915] Pacing Technology Cost

If you haven't: Try fast paced for tech.
I was also reluctant at first fearing it would affect other stuff either, but it works out fine for me and just affects tech and it seems like it might for you as well.
8-10 Turns for tier 1 is achievable by using inspiration even in normal on no tax (4-5 on fast) though (since cities start with 30 pop inspiration makes quite a stronger difference than before. Costs a bit of mana in maintenance but if I forget it for a few turns its very noticable). Playing slave-master custom civs might distort my perception of the lengths a bit though... (shouldn't for the early part more tier 3 and 4)
I do agree though that the early stuff seems a bit expensive.

Strongly agree on taxes, wages and gildar in general (high sale vale of items mitigated part of that but that ship has sailed and it might be good since it puts the broken state of the gildar system into broad daylight. Paying wages for heroes has made that problem even worse... Not because its a bad idea but because gildar is distributed way to scarcely. The gildar must flow). The only sensible source of income I have found to mitigate that is tech-trade-points.



Strongly disagree on so hugely increasing the cost of high level techs around tier 5 (unless each and every single one of those techs makes a game breaking difference. And for example in warfare not a single one of them does even by a tiny bit save for mid-level Armor and that is tier 5 we are speaking about. Take weapons of War. Laughable stuff at tier 7. Even Mauls early in the game are loughable for heroes compared to the solid swords with about 13- 15 attack heroes can easily find. Lightning Hammer comes up to par at enchantment in magic and is a way earlier tier and is one handed. Level 10 is very attainable for early troops much less than late-built ones...).
Even reaching Mid-game armor (chainmail/light plate) and especially weapons (longswords ect.) take like forever with me breezing through the tier 3 and sometimes 4 rather fast (tier 5 still takes the tier 3 and 4 of its field which is what makes tier 5 expensive) thanks to slave-lords truly taking off during about that time (especially on the warfare tree which seems poorly balanced compared to the magic tree which seems fine and diverse to me alright in pacing and hopelessly outperforms an equal (or even more expensive) tier in warfare.
(magic tree offers more diverse benefits and seems frankly quite fun to + advancement seems very noticable. In Warfare advancement seems very incremental and very expensive to reach the few major milestones which really matter like chain/light plate)
Also can't find anything truly powerful about the "late-game techs" (might be down to me not ever getting to the final two tiers of techs usually even in the longest of games I have played spanning about 200-300 turns...).
At least if stuff picks up in cost it shouldn't be before mid-level armors and weaponry+mounts in warfare (which oddly equate about magical forging in the magic tree which is vastly superior in direct comparison). Alternatively (might be the better choice) warfare tree needs rebalancing since for the rest I can roughly agree with your suggestion.

More and more I feel like warfare tree could actually be cut and be incorporated into civilization without the game suffering in a major way (has been done for groups and squads also making civ-techs more meaningful) and magic. If this is a good direction we are heading I cannot say but it is how my games turn out more and more (with armor being the only thing I actually strongly go for by its own merit. Blacksmithing and simmilar just for it being the prerequisite of magical forging).

Important to note about the above: I don't think a nerf for magic or civ-techs is in order though since they are quite fun to go through but a big boost for the warfare tree. Alternatively condense the current Warfare tree to about 5 tiers (axing blacksmithing and incorporating it with armor-and weaponsmithing with heavy armors and weapons of war taking about the place of current mid-game armors and weapons. Then add another tier of weapons and armor for Tier 6 and 7 like Seanw suggested I feel that would put it about on equal footing with magic. Can't provide numbers for that right now though...) Go big or go home!

I wouldn't describe Warfare as at all incremental in addition to one's power. I think Warfare and Magic are roughly well balanced at tier 3-4. It is difficult to equate them, because Magic is adding variety in terns of spells, heroes, and items, while Warfare adds pure military strength. Weaponsmithing and Armor are equally powerful. Armor might increase the survivability of units, but the metal costs are very high and you are sacrificing alot of initiative. Leather units with Maces will win every time. When compared to the Magic tree, you are choosing between direct armor and damage or spell variety and hero recruitment. The choice is appropriately situational. Enchantment does not outperform Armor in any direct way, unless you are planning some Lightning Hammers en mass. Even then, you will primarily be making your choice based on resources. I find that it is often better to use mundane weapons to leave some crystal for the three items, which are best at reducing the initiative penalty. Maybe you could give me an example unit that uses tier 3-4 Magic techs and can defeat a Warfare based unit of the same tier?

To be clear, Magical Forging is a tier 5 tech and should be vastly superior to a tier 3 mount tech or a tier 4 armor tech. Are you sure you are looking at the .915 tech tree?

You edited your post while I was responding...

I agree about Weapons of War. As Gilden the special one-handed mace, Sledge, makes it a worthwhile tier 6, not 7*, tech. Greatsword, Maul and Pike need a boost to attack. The corresponding Lightning Pike negates the use of a Pike. It should follow the general rule that seems to say that a mundane weapon does more normal damage. Greatsword is a lemming. +5 to the attack would be okay at tier 6. Maul should get +6 damage. Sledge needs to weigh 18 and have a -6 Init penalty. 25 weight and -8 to Init makes me want to melt it for scrap sometimes. And while we are talking about tier balance, I would like to see any unit try to use Golem Shield effectively. I audibly laughed when I saw the weight penalty. Come on now, that was a joke right?

Besides those minor balance issues, though, I think the techs themselves are on the right track. 

Yes I am and it works out on riddiculous for me. (that of course means I have to cherry pick traits, equip and use most spells I have acess to. thanks to magical damage bypassing regular armor. Meaning Warfare only each tech offers about a single thing. Magic often offers multiple things / strategies each tech)
That means that I'm not up to equal tier but usually at least against chained or plated big stacks if the AI decides to declare (Not being agressive on the AI unless I can rushbackstab a leader I badly need surrendered like most noticably Verga which nets me 100% wage-reduction thanks to being a warlord myself and negating the pesky wage-problem. I beeline that guy thanks to it. Nothing personal :P). That of course may throw off my observations and may not make them a good guideline for designing the tree. Still puts some deficits to light.
Lightning hammers is the only thing reliably crushing AI stacks and those troops take some grooming before they can beat up an AI-Stack (beyond heroes. See below.)

Also I prefer swords and heavy armor for my damage suckers (built troops I put in front to suck damage / take hits. Thats the point where regular troops can actually take over from at least part of my 2-3 main hero-stacks). Which works out well against the AI. Agressive troops are fine. Those guys oddly come earlier at enchantment but those have to be used with care (they can dish it out but they can't take it). With heroes taking the hits or slow / freeze incapacitating the AI stacks.

Also I usually play with mid-level plate / light plate, have fun trying to beat that with a mace armored troupe AI or otherwise (clink, clink, clink for those bold AI fielding stacks with maces... Most of them sadly field boreal blades. Holy moly. Those guys are seriously dangerous... Makes me seriously consider going for spears).


Yes, of course I have to use every mean trick in the book to best AI at riddiculous. Kudos to Frogboy and the team to get the AI to where it is. Very tough nut to crack. And takes every tool there is now (I neglected strategic spells with 9.12 being the most recent beta I actually got to play prior to .915. Now I use freeze and tremor and other stuff exessively on Monsters and Troops alike. Works agressively as well thanks to arcane monolith in neutral territory)

I am very hero-focused though (since by .915 wealthy, natural leader and betrayers is the way to go for riddicculous among enchanter civ and other cheesy things. You should have to do so otherwise it wouldn't justify the name of the difficulty)


Magical forging is at roughly the same time in the game (in overall turns I could get it in a real playthrough) as I would get armors (might be a misperception but it is also due to the pre-techs which in magic is very noticable while the warfare part seems like a joke. Leather could as well be paper against what the AI fields at riddiculous)
Thanks to all the techs in front being borderline essential and being real milestones (except for blacksmithing but that is the same for mid-armor and weapons. What a crappy and expensive tech...). It also is about the tier where I end the game by dominating the fights with heroes and my regualr troop designs. After that its mop-up.

The research for Armor heroes wear (if I actually do get the funds to aquire them... Did I already say that gildar is way way to scarce i fallen enchantress, hope they rectify that with Beta 4) is conveniently done by the AI is conveniently done by the AI can buy that stuff in their shops allright .


I truly do try going for regular troops (always picking warlord to make wages barely managable for example) but I can't get myself to build them en masse pre mid-armor (for a real army).
That takes like forever. (Since I literally have to do other stuff to survive. Going the hero-tree all the way to the end as fast as tech / lost libraries allow to get all the heroes I can possibly get before the AI grabs them. And it is fast about grabbing heroes at riddiculous and fast tech-pace. Especially if Kraxis is around. Vile contenders in the race for heroes they are..)
The only time I really exessively used troops was when wageless, free-rushable 1-turn troops were available and the best strategy back in beta 2.
Till the day I find Verga as a direct neighbor. Woe upon hin. Wageless troops here I come. Sadly hasn't happened so far...


I do give you that mounts are less of a problem though since animal husbandry recently (sometime in the last 3 patches) got axed from the requirement list if I'm not mistaken (a very welcome change btw... and makes me actually want to go for it not least because the second tier of unit perks on the first tier of that tech-line is a very worthwhile one)

Even a solid spear is found in the civ-tree making the warfare tree even less important.



But lets go with what you said and compare the tiers even directly (which I think misses the mark thanks to the meaningful techs along the way in magic-tree):

Enchantment roughly compares to Weaponsmithing in power by pure numbers (and requires shard-harvesting which is mandatory as a first or second research for enchanting perk civs) might be the same tier but is researched far earlier in my games thanks to the very worthwhile pre-techs. Also plays out far more powerfully for lightning hammers alone. (the rings are sometimes also very meaningful thanks to the AI fielding mages and depending on the loot the rings allowing immunity with Natures mantle and an earth shard + a respective cloak)
Also offers staves which I ignore thanks to the disadvantage: no ranged weapons (together with magic vulnerable to get 4 points for my faction). Doesn't fly against riddiculous AIs Stack HP. Could as well be gnatstings.

Magical forging is superior to Weapons of war in every way imaginable (compare boreal blade to greatsword (I whouldn't actually fear AI stacks wielding them but those guys with boreal blades I have to handle very much with care), lightning pike (lightning hammer high octane. Mount + Charge ftw.) to pike and Flaming double axe to greataxe to see what I mean)

Magical Armor is superior in every way imaginable to heavy armor. Even allows more heavy or light platepices thanks to the sholderpiece.




Sorry about the editing. I will mark posts under construction in this thread from here on out. (I hate forums eating my posts and like polishing them up, helps me clarifying my ideas as I write them either. so I have to chose between the lesser of two evils. I feel your pain and appologize in advance for inflicting that uncertainty upon you. ;)). A vice I am known for.



Post roughly done. Feel free to comment.

Our realms are very different, but it is interesting that we agree on so many points with that in mind. I play on the middle of the road: Challenging World, Challenging AI Factions, Default for all sliders, Mountainous Large Map, Stock Sovs. I want to focus my feedback on what he average user is experiencing. It is interesting to see how the ridiculous side lives. 

As Gilden you pointed out that Light Plate makes the Weaponsmithing less valuable. That is true, but not as much a consideration for the core balance of tech costs. Against Chainmail it is a very good choice. I posted in the early beta 3 about the specific weapon balances for the Warfare tree, but it is really too long to ask anyone to read it that isn't a dev. Also, most of it is has been implemented in the game already. 

If we were playing each other and you had chosen Lightning Hammers in the early game, I would have a hard time countering, except that I would likely choose archers and heavy tanks with counterattack to even things out. Using leather armor, shortsword and horses, we would be pretty evenly matched. I would have twice the initiative and lots of archers. That kind of unit is very cheap to build hordes of. The real problem is that the AI is not yet advanced to use the counter I have devised for you and we can't very well duke it out in multiplayer. The best thing you can do though is to play against the nation you just won as. The AI will use your custom units for that faction and you can devise a way to counter it. Then play again as a third faction and make counters to those two factions. That is pretty much the best we can hope for until after the release.

One thing to note is that War College is a powerful ally of the Lightning Hammer and really any warlord. It will level your units and give them Enmity as a 5th trait. Can't argue with that.

Will still work on the above post but I will give you: With pre-made factions (which seem well balanced at each other) and on challenging what you say does make sense.

Still warfare overall seems to lack spice to me (the other trees offer much diversity. Maybe warfare lacks that and whould benefit from more stuff geared towards war. More truly powerful unit-perks at tier 3-4, buildings really buffing units. Not just reducing troops and simmilar)
And I doubt that truly conflicts with what you say so maybe we can agree on that spicing up the warfare tree with stuff not benefiting the other paths overmuch (or making it soo good it offers an alternative to what magic offers) may be the way to go?

This post won't be edited so feel free to continue this thread of the discussion.

I agree with that. One of the major balance issues is unit level. It only comes from saving those early game units, which only humans are good at. I think the starting level should be increased by an array of Warfare building additions to the tech tree. That would give it some edge. If Civics gives us larger units, Warfare should give us better trained smaller units. I would also like to see all traits for units get a boost. My mod for beta 3 pretty much perfects them. I am hoping to see some of that in beta 4 be beefed up to make some of those lemming traits like +2hp go the way of Capitar.

Some notes on the long post that may explain some things which further tilt the discussion:

Prior to.915 i used Pariden Blood for my custom civ giving them high Ini regardless of equipp thanks to enough Air-Shards. That made lightning-piked and lightning hammered troops (with charge and wargs + monk-robes and ini-belt all of them) much more viable (was like: Charge and kill and pull back if possible before the AI can retaliate. Thanks to lightning pikes also worked on sword-equiped AI stacks)

Now I use Altarian Blood and heroic faction (for henchmen and the extreme XP boost I do shoot for when leveling with potental and trainer does actually work out for heroic stacks :)) which tilts the whole thing even further in favor of the magic tree thanks to henchmen (which are a nice addition I actually undervalued and Athican Leather actually makes leather armor valuable thanks to easier fire immunity. Haven't used them early in my current first game as such a civ in .915. Will change that in my next.)
I truly have learned to fear counterattack now. 9-unit-stacks armed with boreal blades even hurts resistant and heavily armored heroes. 5 hits to the kill. Maul and Poitions and heal and slow more than once saved my butt (evoker and mass-spells also work when the random generator is nice).

Also the supposedly common magic-traits seem much rarer now. Has some lunatic put in a Level cap for them maybe? I find getting tier 3 or 4 in a sphere quite hard in .915 when just having a single sphere on sovereign creation or first 3-4 heroes...

Also Ini rules all the way and Shields are very meaningful now. That is why swords are easily the best pick for heroes in my book (one-handed spears might actually be best but that is a valuable perk slot and is hard to justify so far. Maybe I'll try a dumb faction next to get another perk slot. Research is done by my non-taxed lab-slaves from humaniod wildlife and agressive factions sending them my way anyways. At least until gallows, a prison (or some), a cleric and the onyx throne are built so that the slaves understand that taxing isn't a bad thing really... So dumb disadvantage shouldn't hurt overmuch... Worth testing...)


Also I don't take multiplayer into consideration currently (and am not interested in competitive multiplayer so I don't care to think along that lines. Coop very much though... Thats why I do strongly hope for a multiplayer DLC well after the main game is a success. :)). One beta-test at a time. When the game is released and stardock works on the multiplayer DLC we can discuss that.

Post roughly done. Comment away.

Headache, Headache!...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

This is a great discussion you guys are having.

If I could toss a couple pennies in, I think that aside from early game pacing (which is about 15% or so too slow) is pretty solid in terms of expenditure to benefit in the Civ and Magic trees. You get a good breadth of useful spells/buildings/abilities/whathaveyou at each level, and they seem to scale pretty well with each successive level in terms of expenditure to benefit.

The warfare tree, on the other hand requires pretty massive outlays in time for HUGE jumps in technology which pretty much immediately outclasses the previous level in every respect. In addition to the aforementioned new traits, I would like to see the more tangible stuff get spread out a bit in terms of when you get it and what its power level is. There should be a teeny bit of armor and a one-handed worthwhile something (like the dagger) with the shield tech. Additionally, a "split development" of Light and Heavy weapons and armor would add choice and interest to the warfare tree, allow a lighter per-tech cost because of more things to research, and a broader array of tactical choices for equipping your troops.

I would like to see some training techs that give all trained units a trait. Would make for a great world wonder. The most interesting thing to me is that Magic seems to have so much more in it than Warfare. When Warfare lost unit size, it lost its viability. I think it was the right call, but now we need to add some more to the tree so that it becomes more multifaceted. Blacksmithing is the workhorse of the tree. I would like to see more resource bonuses from buildings. Extra horses from a city connected to them is a great place to start. Some more War College type buildings would go a long ways too. Maybe an elite archer camp or moving Arena to the tree? There is alot that can be done.

Marksmen Academy: Trained units get Improved Precision:+10 Accuracy and +1 Initiative.  Put it in the Longbow tech. Those techs are one-trick ponies. Ask Lord Xia.

Citadel: Defenders get +6 Armor, +2 Attack. Trained units get +2 Initiative. Not a bad option to spruce up the War College tech. One per faction or very high maintenance I would think.

Master Breeder: +50% Horse production in this city. Mounted Warfare obviously.

Cavalry Quarters: Unlocks Warhorses and gives +1 Warhorse per turn to this city. Would be best as a world wonder from Mounted Warfare.

It would also be nice to see a new shield in War College. The Warfare tree also need some mundane items so that we are not wholly relying on Magic to have good items. Poison is drastically underused. Some Dodge bonuses or an item called Masterworked Gear that reduces the overall weight of all other weapons and armor would be absolutely brilliant.

I think the original post was showing great promise, got a bit offtopic for my taste, but fantastic original thingie

That said, genuinely a lot of ideas put into this post, although you have to read through a lot of personal chatter to get to it
(And I spotted 1 possible bug in there too that I don't think I have seen mentioned before, or well its rather a powerful mishap, not entirely a bug).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Personally, I think the best way to breathe some life back into the Warfare tree is to move all magical weapons into it. 

I've been thinking about the way that the three trees interact with each other for a while now, and it seems to me that the best way to implement them (going by how they're currently designed) is to more or less make Civics the city and troop size tree, Warfare the arms and armor tree, and Magic the champion and spell tree.  Civics, I think, is in a pretty solid spot at the moment.  Magic, in my opinion, is the jack-of-all-trades tree; if I invest fully into magic, I can enchant my cities, champions, and ordinary troops into unstoppable powerhouses, learn to train ordinary soldiers with magical arms and armor (which is almost always simply better than the weapons I could use from the warfare tree), AND be able to hire better heroes and go on more dangerous quests.  Warfare... gives me leather armor.  And currently, that's all I need it for.  Bear in mind I've mostly been playing on Easy (though that will change in my next game now that I actually have a fighting chance against monsters), so I can't say for sure whether my admittedly one-sided games bear much in common with what most players are seeing.  That said, however, I think the Magic tree should be changed to offer benefits that are more geared towards champions and your sovereign than ordinary armies. 

With that in mind, here's what I would change: I would put every weapon unlocked by Enchantment in a new branch of research, Enchanted Arms, requiring Shard Harvesting and Archery, located in the fourth tier of Warfare, moving the Guardian Shrine into Rituals to make room for a new technology, Heroic Arms.  This would unlock items like the Toxic Dagger and Guiding Spear, only available to champions and requiring Gildar to purchase from your shops.  I would then take all the weapons from Magical Forging, put them into Arcane Weapons, and put that tech in the warfare tree with the prerequisites of Advanced Archery, Weapons of War, and Arcane Mastery in the Magic tree.  I think this is fine, considering that all the weapons in both techs either start with better numbers than their mundane equivalents, or scale with unit level.  We're gonna just ignore the terrible, terrible Hunter's Short Sword too.  Replace the weapons in Magical Forging with tier/level-appropriate champion gear, and put a new tech where Arcane Weapons used to be that does the same thing.  Rings, belts, cloaks, etc., and the Monk's Staff are fine where they are, given the usefulness of such items to both trained units and champions (erm, ohai Monk's Staff!)

Considering the current price of the champion items that would have to be used to fill out the holes I just made in the Magic tree, the pricing system of items would have to be re-evaluated as well (nerf base prices and bring back selling them for 50%!) to make investing in this tree worthwhile to players.  IMO, this would also give a more clearly defined role to each tech tree (want awesome cities?  Go Civics.  Need weapons of doom?  Invest in the Warfare tree) and give a few more things to spend gold on besides rushing city production (sure, getting the Ironworks this turn would be awesome, but my sovereign would love an Ignys Battle Axe...).  Let me know what you think.

Aaaaand I forgot what the OP was even about, lol. 

I find that I'm able to get relatively fast research speeds by having no taxes and casting Inspiration on my starting city.  Takes about 10 turns to get my first tech using this method, versus the aforementioned 24 with no enchantments.

RE: Emperorjarin

My point exactly. The choice most players fell forced to make is no taxes and a starting Inspiration enchantment because otherwise we are losing 14 turns and almost all of that is spent withering away in the capital. If the default cost is 10 for the first tier, the savings from tech rushing are far less. Somewhere around 5 I would guess. That allows it to still be viable, but the truth is we will be using taxes sooner if we can get the early game warfare techs unlocked at a reasonable speed. I do like that starting population is high enough now at the start. That needs to stay and taxes should give more Gildar. That would push the early game pace to where it needs to be I think.

The increase in tech cost that comes in the midgame might seem like it will slow the game down, but you have to think that expansion and growth are currently making the midgame and late game blur by. It would be nice to have tech cost push the player to expand or construct a research powerhouse. 

I really like that magical weapons require Warfare and Magic. It doesn't matter much to me as long as the tech requirements make sense. Attaching it to archery doesn't make sense to me, but the core idea is good. I would like to see some masterworked techs. There is certainly some room for techs that reward a balanced approach to the trees. Going halfway up two of the trees could lead to Heroic Forging as you suggested. I generally like to start getting all the techs in tier 4 so I can balance the unit in metal and crystal costs. There should be an opportunity to capitalize on that with some combination techs. Something of an expansion of the current magical weapon options. 

I mostly attached it to archery because magic staves are ranged, and IMO staves are a lot better a ranged weapon than bows are currently.  Whatever prereqs end up making the most sense, I'm fine with.  I'm curious as to your thoughts on redesigning the Magic tree to be primarily focused on champion improvement.  As I mentioned, it still has all the non-weapon items in it, but of late I find myself having little to no reason to research Warfare beyond Standing Army and prereqs for unlocking the MUCH better magical weapons.  I also expanded on my thoughts in this thread.

After some thinking about what could be added to warfare tree here is another possible option of how to make the warfare tree more important:

Trait slots for units might be a good thing to turn paced by technology and place in Warfare. Starting with 2 Slots (to allow for at least one advantage and one disadvantage) and going up to 4,5 or even 6 Trait slots might make a real difference for troops and might make it worthwhile to go warfare in addition to better traits and higher troop limit (also more red "traits" later down the road which like cruel add good and bad stuff at once might be in order.). Cause better knowledge in Warfare might lead to more specialization between troops.

Good idea. I would not say no to some special maneuver ability traits too. Some other testers have mentioned the need for trained units to be able to do some special attacks and defenses on the field of battle. This could be the time to try that out. 

Oh man, would some equipped-weapon specific special traits be a wonderful thing.

Regarding my OP:

I have been testing out the proposed changes to the tech tree pacing and am loving the result. Might be less relevant for beta 4, but for .915 it is setting a better pace. My let's play videos give a pretty good documentation of the change.