Pathetic, FUBAR, Pitiful, Embarassing Multiplayer System. Good Job Stardock/Ironclad!

Beta.

You should produce some numbers on the " you will still fall back on, "well nobody plays multiplayer", " bit.

Prove them wrong to some degree by presenting evidence, instead of just meaningless rants.

It's been beta for 4 years.

Nightraider might be an ass and not one for tactfully giving feedback, but in all honesty he has a point...

This game has two notable characteristics:

• The game as a whole favors MP over SP - SoaSE lacks the depth, options, and level of immersion that make for truly great SP games...by its nature, sins is meant to be a non-clickfest multiplayer RTS where human players can test their wit and strategy for a couple hours...in short, this game has a lot of potential for MP...
• The devs as a whole favor SP over MP - this is an obvious stance that has been well exhibited by GC II, the magic fairy games, and SoaSE...SD focuses most on appeasing its SP community and is concerned with making it "balanced enough" for this casual player base...

Clearly we have a fundamental problem...the devs are fixated on making an SP game when they really have an MP game...seems like a conflict of interest to me...

Minidumps and desyncs have plagued SoaSE since its inception...even their final releases were affected by these issues and even the most recent version (Diplomacy 1.34) is not immune to such problems...the "It's only a Beta" BS argument is moot at this point: final releases of the game have had this problem, and there is no reason to think the final release of Rebellion will be any different...

Pb and Valk are you disagreeing with Night's assessment?  The multiplayer system in this game IS depressingly unstable and not very well designed.

Hopefully they will hear us star!

Its not like we are complaining without cause...our frustration is kinda reaching a point of no return, I hope the developers listen.  If things don't get radically improved the developers will lose their core community, and i'm quite sure they don't really know how bad that could be for them.

Not disagreeing book. the multiplayer system is very pathetic. and Seleucia is right. the devs care only for single player.

What I want is proof showing that multiplayer is worth investing in, so that we can show the devs multiplayer is worth investing in.

I'm already considering just abandoning SoaSE altogether...even if the bugs were fixed, the balance is so atrocious I can't even enjoy playing the game...Diplomacy was bad enough, but this is just awful...

Endless Space, Legends of Pegasus, Gemini Wars, Star Drive...they are all coming out soon (some this June) and some look pretty damn good...Endless Space is even being hailed as a contender for overthrowing the reign of MoO 2...SD has some serious competition: it's time they man up...

This is so so so sad, I really really don't want to say this...but, I don't think it is worth it...

SD is not capable of balancing a game, so even if they added the MP features, who is going to care?...furthermore, they will soon be contending with some very competitive releases this summer...the timing as well as SD's "skill set" just makes Rebellion not a good sale for the MP market...it has the potential, but SD I don't think can pull it off...

I really don't like saying that, but I think it is the truth...

Though I noticed Seleuceia made a very valid argument by saying that at its core Sins is a multiplayer game. If the dev's would fix the desynchs and frequent minidumps, Sins Rebellion might just become a popular competitive RTS after all. I only wish this would happen, for the few times I have played online didn't end pretty...

I play this game for 4 years now. Heck it is only game I own.  I weathered and stayed with game where there were 30 people on SINS Diplomacy on a good night. I put up with regular MD, Smurfing and other problems I stated numerous times. 

Truthfully I haven't thought this will happen but with balance or complete lack of it and problems that are plaguing MP are slowly but surely pushing me away from SINS as a whole not just rebellion itself.

Remember when we stayed with the game when we had to wait in MP lobby for 1h sometimes to get a game going.

Now? Once or twice I pop on and If there is no game that is nearly full I am gone not wiling to wait for game that will after 10 minutes end up with MD or desync and which forces you to play one race out of six if you want to stay competitive and have a hope to win the match.

I do know it is beta but lack of updates and adding content that is not even close to being balanced it is wearing my patience very thin. I do not really believe any more that things will turn out for better and at the moment I am regretting that I fell for so far empty promises about MP improvement and bought the game.  

So I'm gonna call you out on your BS to some extent here, every tuesday night 5 of my friends and i get together for game night and for 3 months straight we played Sins. Diplomacy mind you, and it worked great we didn't have a single desync or minidump. Thats 6 different systems running the game over a period of 12 sessions.

Not a lot mind you but enough to call you full of hot air on that idea the game has always been unstable. There were some major issues during entrenchment and the original sins but those were cleared up and i have 6 to 1 on you who will say otherwise.

I wonder how the hell any of you gurus know that they are NOT working on the desyncs? You stopped by their offices lately? Seen what they are coding? If not stop spreading ignorance. You getting desyncs see the notes at the top of the forum on how to detail them. I have no idea why you think you  are better than the devs but they understand their game a helluva lot better than you do.

I'd love to see the desyncs fixed because tuesday night is coming up and I know we won't be able to play rebellion till they fix it but, i know they WILL fix it.

Sorry if I forgot a word, I meant to say:

I for one am very GRATFUL that SD cares more for single player than multiplayer, multiplayer also entails dumbing down the game and general ruining what could be an epic masterpiece. As it stands mp is fine right now and I continue to hope that they CONTINUE to focus a majority of their resources towards single player gameplay. And if people don't like this, there is always those tacky games like SC II and C&C4 or COD so knock yourselves out.

BTW this game runs nearly flawlessly on my older PC despite its lack of a dedicated video card and a slower processor. So yeah, I have only had five minidumps throughout the whole beta process and in the completed games no issues whatsoever.

You disagree with our claim that Sins has a history of instability...then you admit there were major issues during entrenchment and original sins which were "cleared up" by updates mind you, not by a final release...

We assume that they are...but Sins has a track record of final releases containing minidumps or desyncs (which are even worse when the standard MP game is a 5v5)...Diplomacy v1.34 may be stable but how lond did it take Sins to get to that point?  People aren't going to wait months and months for a stable version...they are going to move on and play something else, such as one of the very nice 4x games coming out this summer (which I already ascribed)...

It is possible that by June 12th, Rebellion will be minidump and desync free...but considering past releases, I highly doubt that...

In any case I consider it a moot issue...even if they stamp out all the bugs, I highly doubt rebellion will ever be in a good state of balance...nothing else by Stardock has had good enough balance for competitive MP play, and there's no indication that Rebellion will be any different...

We have bugs, and we have balance...even if the bugs are fixed, we still have the balance issue...and until both are fixed, you have a gloomy future for SoaSE MP...

Oh another rant.

*grabs popcorn*

that was sins diplomacy.  I too didn't minidump in diplomacy, and i'm not sure if you were using ICO or just LAN.  It sounds like you were using a LAN, which i never play and therefore have no clue if minidumps are even possible playing that way. 

This is sins beta, and we've sent them tons of minidump reports to no avial.  The only difference i've seen in their bug squashing capability is that they have improved their customer service by sending you an email saying in general that "they are working on it".  The time wasted to put this email response customer service gimmick could have been made to hunt down the actual problem and gives me cause to worry.

@polistes

In truth multiplayer doesn't dumb down the game, that is what single player is in danger of doing to the game.  Most multiplayers know that more paths to victory increases the fun factor of this game.  The multiplayers are up in arms about how corvettes are overpowered because they truly are.  The entire game is centered around them, and the single player experience would be extremely easy if the corvettes still cost the same amount of resources.  Also, the multiplayer community begged for higher titan costs so the game didn't become a boring titan vs. titan early game where no person built a fleet.  In single player we helped players enjoy a greater possible challenge because you now can't just build an early titan without risk (facing a difficult AI).  The multiplayers add challenge to the single player game with almost ever fix.  These challenges help the AI seem stronger then it really is and helps the single player experience be more under the control of the player, by setting the appropriate AI opponent you now have more control over the level of actual skill the computer has because the cheap overpowered techniques are becoming more balanced.

Multiplayers want more paths to victory(which would only serve to help the single player experience), which will serve to increase the variables in the game and reduce the games simplicity at the highest level.  Diplomacy started to become a bit boring because the game didn't have enough options for effective endgame strategies.  Rebellion really mixes it up and factional play is very interesting, making same race matchups FAR more interesting then they were previously.  Even same race same faction matchups are a lot more interesting now because the developers increased the overall paths to victory.

I don't even know what to make of this statement...compared to real SP games, SoaSE is outclassed and will be even more so when games like Endless Space and Legends of Pegasus hit the market (which will be very soon)...

Making Sins better for multiplayer does not require the game to be dumbed down, that you think so just boggles my mind...even a handful of small balance changes could go a long way in improving the MP experience for skilled players, and such changes would not detract from the SP experience...

You are very disillusioned if you think MP is fine right now...however, I assume you meant to say SP, which still makes for a disillusioned statement...even a casual player should be able to see the glaring balance problems with the game...

This is, quite frankly, insulting...first of, COD?  Seriously?  Because that's even remotely comparable to Sins...furthermore, you are insulting game franchises that are vastly more successful than Sins will ever be...

The shear arrogance you have to look down on those player bases while simultaneously claiming SoaSE has acceptable balance...

haha seleucia i beat you to the polistes reply!

must be my buff speedy typing fingers.

-flex-

ARGH...where is my telepathic keyboard?!?!?

Sins caters to the more intelligent/patient gamer, and NOT to the ADHD generation that can't focus on one thing for more than a few minutes, one does not need to use their brain to play cod or SC II which is mainly just memorizing a quick build order to rush your opponent in the first five minutes of game play. And likely plays into why these games are so successful despite a horribly bad storyline, and "shallow game play" And I have nerver seen any strategy played out in CoD. Battlefield II and III are different stories.

The fact is multiplayer works, so if you want to play then go head. And honestly look at what MP has done to the titans, they used to be an end all ship worthy of the cost of rescources for them, now they can barely stand alone at lower levels. Things are getting nerfed that really don't need to be, some one is spamming vettes, then counter with flack. Or a more heavily armored ship type.

And you talk about arrogance? The MP community here likes to portray itself as the core sins community, the majority and as one post in another thread mentioned, thinks that they are the salvation of the game series, and that the game should revolved around MP, and I am getting sick of that mindset and I generally try to ignore it most cases but this thread is just too much.

Sins will never have a huge multiplayer base and thats due to the genre of game that it is and what its made for.

Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't beta's supposed to be buggy and unbalanced? So you can all bitch and moan when the game is actually released. You MP community with your constant rants and feelings of superiority over the SP Community, actually make it very difficult to WANT to play MP on this game... So i for one am grateful that they try to appease the majority of fans of this game by focusing on SP. Stop being such dicks on the forums and maybe people will be sympathetic to your cause.

Rebellion has some nice things going for it.  Not sure just how many, but once final is released, then the two to three patches that fix stuff that wasn't in final, modders will step in and work their techno-wizardry so people want to keep playing after 4 months.  Seriously, imho, if not for the grand mods for the game, it'd have died completely.  That's not arrogance, just a bitter truth.

Community Cores:

1. StarClad
2. Multiplayer
3. Singleplayer
4. Modders

As we all know, SOASE only supports single core.  LOL. 

@ polistes

Thats totally wrong.  the only reason sins multi fails is because of how long minidumps and desyncs have made many games unplayable.  Also, initially the game didn't have a quickstart option which turned many players off because the first 10 minutes of gameplay was almost exactly the same every game.  Years of online community growth have been severely hampered because there wasn't any importance placed upon multiplayer, when there should have been.

Anyways, it is "single player exclusive sins experiencers" like you polistes that seek to drive a wedge between the "two communities", when there is in fact one community.  It is your own inexperience with playing the higher level of the game that limits your understanding of strategy and what is and is not overpowered.  Take that recent poll that the 85% singleplayer base voted that the kol is an effective battleship in multiplayer...  That is as gross of a misrepresentation of the reality of the game's strategy as it would be to say the sky is dark green with pink mist.  There is no doubt in my mind that the mastery difference between the different groups is so different as to ensure that the developers make a choice.

If the developers go with the majority who don't know enough about the finer points of the game strategy and ruin the multiplayer aspect of the game, then they will kill what we find truly beautiful about the game.  Just because you don't see the games beauty the same way doesn't mean that we both can't be appeased.  The thing is, appeasing the 15 % takes more effort yet will only help to improve the game for the 85%. 

There is NO us or them, we are in it together m8.  Our multiplayer/singleplayer understanding and position is not arrogance if it has been earned, and there are many voices aside from mine who have earned their position and respect via their knowledge and mastery of the different strategies available in the game.  Personally I don't look down on single players for their choices to stay in single player, but they don't deserve a voice in discussions of high strategy if they prove they don't know what they are talking about (like mayallcommunion). 

It only seems like arrogance because you are ignorant.  Take some responsibility choose either to accept your position or perhaps increase your sins experience and play some multiplayer, please.

Once the minidumps get fixed i'd be glad to face you in a few games and teach you a few things.

Your crystal ball is as good as mine but right now, we're two weeks away from the scheduled release date if Steam is to be believed.  In my experience, it's very rare for large issues like this to be fixed in time when we're this close to the wire.  Being a beta product doesn't expand the amount of work that people can do on it in a very limited time.

As for the single/multiplayer divide here, you know... asses though they may be at times, I for one am glad that we have a portion of community that cares enough about the details of competitive game balance to bring it to these forums.  As a primarily single-player gamer, I "don't" want Titans to be an instant-win against the AI.  I don't want corvettes to be a thoughtless anti-(almost)everything ship in the early game.  I don't want to have invincible phase-jumping starbases that the AI has no hope of killing or to press a button to receive a hojillion resources from an opponent's now-useless planet. 

These are the sorts of things that are dumbing down the game and I'm glad there are a few around here with enough overall competitive experience to call them out.