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[0.914 - SUGGESTION] Thoughts on the current Magic system and moving forward

[0.914 - SUGGESTION] Thoughts on the current Magic system and moving forward

So, at this point, I think the game is getting pretty well dialed in, is very stable, moderately well balanced, and pretty close to fun.

 

Aside from the consistently weak starting points (widely discussed), and the city leveling system (being addressed in Beta 4), the currently implemented Magic system is still very bland and dis-interesting. There are a handful of reasons why.

 

  • The current Magic system lacks information - Even in the Hierge-whatever, the giant list of all spells doesn't say word one about WHICH level of WHICH elements of magic you need to have to be able to cast it. Additionally, when you level up it tells you "Choosing Apprentice level Fire talent gives you Flame Dart and some other stuff". That doesn't even SOUND interesting.
  • The current Magic system lacks Choice - Every single time you choose Apprentice level Fire talent, you get exactly the same set of spells. I can't tell you which of these exactly they are, because I have no way of knowing aside from creating a sovereign with only fire and levelling them up to catalog the information. Regardless, the closest thing that the Magic system currently has regarding magic choices is IF you want to level your spell talent, and IF you want to research one of the magic tree's apparently random "Book of [Insert Noun Here]" to gain 3 more spells.
  •  The current Magic system lacks Exclusivity - When creating your sovereign, your spell choices aren't really all that indicative of what sort of game you are going to play. Your champions have every bit the same capacity to become as good of casters as your sovereign, and because they can just as easily come with Air, Earth, and Fire as anything else, the only reason to put a particular school on your sovereign is because it has spells your playstyle can't live without.
  • The current Magic system lacks logical limitations on strategic spells - This is a pretty broad category, but briefly listed; Strategic spells can be cast either in your ZoC or wherever you have previously seen before. Enemy sovereigns appear to be able to cast Strategic spells wherever they like, even if you have never before met them (let alone are currently at war). Strategic spells seem to have no limitation on how many you can cast a turn, except for some spells which you just can't cast more than once. These spells don't appear to have any indication that is the case, it simply is.
  • The current Magic system lacks meaningful spells at every level - Depending upon the type of game you are playing, and the type of caster who is learning the talent, there may not be any purpose to even choosing to level up a spell skill, and if you do, you are not always rewarded with anything.
  • Your Sovereign is "just another caster" under the current rules - These are the people who are the movers and shakers. The ones who are able to shape destiny to their will. How is it that unless you choose to make them more powerful casters BY DESIGN, they are not one jot different from government-issue-1-H-champion-schmoe that they picked up on the roadside for 100 Gold? Why are those champions not out there pulling together factions and waging a holy war? Really dilutes the impact of having a sovereign per game story.
  • The current Elemental Shard system waters down the early game spell skill choices - So your sovereign is a Master fire mage? Doesn't matter if you only find Air shards. The number of spells whose overall impact relies largely upon what kind of shards you find, and the inability to actually do anything to change the shards you do have help to work against playing the "be a badass caster" game.
  • There are very few "You can use magic so you can cast these" spells - There should be a good set of general Utility spells available to your caster regardless of what schools they choose. I know that 3/4 of the way up the magic tree there are a small handful, but if you aren't playing the magic game then you will never see them except by accident.
  • Levelling up magic is Random - How can you plan to play the "My sovereign is an awesome caster" game if they don't start getting any opportunities to improve their caster rank until Level 5, and then when they do it is for the wrong school?

 

Proposals: Some of the below will be indicative of the current system, but inform how I feel the system could be improved overall. If the Devs see fit to use any and all of these suggestions they are welcome to without payment or acknowledgement to me.

 

  • There need to be Five general types of spells.
    • Tactical Spells - Spells cast while in combat with effects that end when combat does. This includes Tactical Summoning spells where the summoned create vanishes after combat whether it is killed or not.
    • Unit Enchantments - Spells cast upon units in Strategic mode to enhance units. These spells come with a maintenance cost and remain active while the cost is paid.
    • City Enchantments - Spells cast upon cities to buff or debuff.
    • Overland Spells - Powerful Enchantments that effect the entire world, or have a one-time impact on the game world in Strategic mode.
    • Overland summoning - These spells bring units into play to be used over the course of many turns with a mana upkeep cost.
  • In order to properly distinguish Sovereigns as the significant magical creatures they are, Overland Summoning (except in some specific Champion-Unique-Ability cases), Overland Spells, and City Enchantments should be made Sovereign Only. That way, the spell skills you choose at the beginning of the game have meaning beyond your initial ability to use Flame Dart or Heal. Champions with magic should be limited to Tactical and Unit Enchantments to show that while they can cast spells, they don;t have the World-Bending power of the Sovereigns.
  • In order to make the above work properly, Every single level of spell skill needs to have something interesting and useful from a Unit Enchantment or Tactical impact standpoint. Currently, that isn't really the case, and I often find that despite having a level in Earth, my champions can't do anything really useful except "Hit them with their Hammer". Why would I care enough to work on their magic if I have to waste three or more levels hoping to have the consecutive opportunity to improve the school(s) you want to improve?
  • Spells need to be CHOSEN, and not given. Because this game focuses on researching Tech and not Spells (Because the Dual Research system of EWoM was cumbersome, and I am glad it is gone), Spells need to be chosen a different way. Why not utilize the tried-and-true skill tree method?
    • For instance; Sovereigns get 2 Spell points to spend every level, plus more if they choose the "Research Spells" level improvement. Champions only get spell points if they choose the level up which gives them points (they aren't natural casters, after all). 
    • You need to have X number of spells chosen in Fire before you gain the ability to choose Apprentice level spells, but you may continue learning Novice level spells to improve your ability if there are no Apprentice spells which interest you.
    • This system would enable you to craft the Sovereign and Champions that you WANT to play instead of hoping you get to play a caster and having to choose talents which do not support your choice of play style.
    • This system would also clearly indicate to the player EXACTLY what types of spells they will have available to them, and EXACTLY how to get there in terms of Magic Tech research and Spell Point spending.
  • There should be a set of basic "Arcane" spells available to all casters, which include basic Dispels, +Resist enchantments, Transmute Shard (at a very high level), and other such.
  • Elemental Shards should do something other than just +1 to [insert spell effect here] per shard - Depending upon the spell, they should reduce the casting cost (overland spells), reduce the per-turn maintenance (Overland Summoning spells), Add to the Damage OR reduce the Cost of tactical combat spells, depending upon the type. They could also add 1 Spell Skill of the appropriate type to the Sovereign when they level (or 1 for every 2 shards) to indicate the sovereigns drawing power from their shards. Because Elemental Shards are random, and you are not guaranteed to even SEE they types of shards for the schools you are playing with while they would matter, Spells ought to be plenty good without them, and receive benefits indicative of what type of spell they are (Tactical, Overland, Etc) instead of just making their effects stronger.
    • As an aside, this system enables there to be Tactical damage spells which without shards are essentially the same, but become diverse based upon how many shards you have (One gets stronger while the other gets cheaper).

 

I could go into more detail about specifically what types of new spells need made, but really, it is more important to focus on making the fundamentals of the system strong than it is to highlight which Earth spell does what in particular and for what cost.

184,303 views 55 replies
Reply #26 Top

I am shocked and amazed.

Not only do I agree with the OP, I agree with every single word.

Literally! There is not a single concept or point he had that I could point to that was not pure brilliance!

Reply #27 Top

The magic here is no MOM but it's serviceable I suppose? I mean if you read between the lines the major problems are more to do with city management, diversity of factions etc. Magic is not on the developer's list of issues except maybe adding more spells.

To be frank, I suspect people who feel the magic system needs to be improved is a very small minority. Most think it can be improved of course but not really a big issue. 

 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 27
To be frank, I suspect people who feel the magic system needs to be improved is a very small minority.

what? looks to me like every single player thinks that.

And whats wrong with an RPG like spell selection system? 

Reply #29 Top

Yes, I think the magic system needs work, but the game as a whole as come light years from where WOM was and even the early stages of beta for this game. 

Reply #30 Top

+1 to improving the spell system. All of these ideas are great. I miss the random element of the spells you can get in a given game, ala MOM. Spell rarity,  etc. Because shards are rare, they need to improve spells much more than they do, like as a multiplier. Spells need to scale with level. Every spell needs to be useful and scale. Courage, for example, is useless later in the game.

 Replayability will greatly depend on the number of spellcaster builds and variety of spells. Totally agree that only the sovereign should be able to cast overland spells, and that the number that can be cast per turn needs to be limited.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting taltamir, reply 28

Quoting luketan, reply 27To be frank, I suspect people who feel the magic system needs to be improved is a very small minority.

what? looks to me like every single player thinks that.

And whats wrong with an RPG like spell selection system? 

 

There was a poll a few months back about what to improve. I think the magic system was not in the top 3...or was it even in top 5? 

 

And of course if you ask people, they going to say everyone can be improved. But how burning is the need? I think (and i suspect the developer's agree), the stuff 

asked on this thread are nice to haves.. but not essential. 

For instance more people seem worried about stability, city management, diversity of factions, Tactical combat etc. Of course if you look at this thread it looks like "every single player" wants the magic system changed. But this is one of the cases of selection bias. Those who care comment, the rest who dont care (doesn't mean they oppose just simply it's nice to have but not essential in their book) won't comment.

Btw in case you wondering i fully support this thread, but just being a realist. I also wonder if the people in this thread should just play MOM and be done with it rather than trying to change FE into a MOM clone with the same magic system. 

Reply #32 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 32


There was a poll a few months back about what to improve. I think the magic system was not in the top 3...or was it even in top 5? 

 

And of course if you ask people, they going to say everyone can be improved. But how burning is the need? I think (and i suspect the developer's agree), the stuff 

asked on this thread are nice to haves.. but not essential.  

 

To be fair, at that point, the game was not stable, had boring factions, and horribly unbalanced tactical combat. Magic wasn't the biggest concern at that time. I suspect we might see a different result now that the game is stable, more diverse, and better balanced.

 

In terms of whether or not the upgrades to the magic system are a "burning need" (and yes, I realize as the OP I'm a bit biased), I would say they are "Significant to the long term enjoyment of this game".

 

Very little of what I identified months ago has been addressed on any significant level. Spell progression is still erratic in pace, static in improvement, and usefulness of spells is still largely hinged upon the RNG deciding to place the correct type of shards near your spawn point.

 

For a "Strategy Game", there is far too much randomness and too many holes in the current system to make the "path of magic" anything other than an opportunity taken when available. It cannot be a strategy from the outset of the game because of these holes. I would say the necromancy and subsequent activity of a 4 month old thread speaks to the validity of the claims in the OP.

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Reply #33 Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 33
To be fair, at that point, the game was not stable, had boring factions, and horribly unbalanced tactical combat. Magic wasn't the biggest concern at that time.

Exactly. Heck at v0.951 I was still consistently getting corrupted saves which stopped me from finishing the game.

Not at 0.952 this no longer happens (and the corrupt saves I submitted work when loaded in 0.952).

Magic was a low priority compared to how broken the rest of the game was. But that doesn't mean there isn't huge room for improvement.

The OPs suggestion are about how to do magic "right".

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 33
ystem are a "burning need" (and yes, I realize as the OP I'm a bit biased), I would say they are "Significant to the long term enjoy
Quoting Malsqueek, reply 33

Quoting luketan, reply 32

There was a poll a few months back about what to improve. I think the magic system was not in the top 3...or was it even in top 5? 

 

And of course if you ask people, they going to say everyone can be improved. But how burning is the need? I think (and i suspect the developer's agree), the stuff 

asked on this thread are nice to haves.. but not essential.  

 

To be fair, at that point, the game was not stable, had boring factions, and horribly unbalanced tactical combat. Magic wasn't the biggest concern at that time. I suspect we might see a different result now that the game is stable, more diverse, and better balanced.

 

Somehow I doubt that. My gut feeling is that if we run a poll again, changing the magic system again won't be one of the top 3. My sense is the main people unhappy with the magic system are MOM/AOW fans, but they are outnumbered by those who dont care for it.

 

But we can't run polls right? 

 

Reply #35 Top

Well, yeah, that's hardly any surprise, cosidering MoM was the best game in the genre, and AoW was the second best (albeit very far behind) - and FE should copy as much from these games as it possible can. Guess why - it WORKED. 

Reply #36 Top

Yup, at this point, the magic system isn't going to change. Kael and FB are satisfied with it; it will be up to the reviewers and the customers to decide if their design was good or not.  We've told them all this before, and they're not listening to it anymore.  FB has famously said "This isn't the game for you if you don't like it", but I think (I hope) the intent there was "we've put the resources into this section of the game that we intended, you need to decide for yourself if what we offer up is good enough, mated with the other game systems, to overall have a good entertainment experience".  Like all avocations, if you don't feel that you're having fun with the systems they've implemented, there are other games that are coming out soon that may offer you more enjoyment.

Reply #38 Top

We've had numerous threads about how the magic system can be made better.  Each one is different, and each time many people come forward to say how wonderful the changes would be.  Seems to me everyone has their own way of improving magic in FE.  Several of these amount to a complete overhaul of the way magic is conceived and put into practice--which would mean several steps back into early beta for Stardock.

 

It isn't going to happen.  There's been talk about things being tweaked a bit on several levels, so we may see a few spells added/moved/removed.  That's it.  Stardock is assuming responsibility for making choices according to their own best design, which, when you think about it, is as it should be.  I mean, it's their money.  They reap the rewards, or the losses.  Nobody else's system will be implemented.

 

For me, the system doesn't lack meaningful or interesting spells, except for quite a few that need rebalancing--either made stronger, or weaker, or more expensive, etc.  But this next beta is all about balancing and bug fixes.

 

Anybody who does have a new system--and this one, like several others I've seen, is very interesting--should really consider learning how to mod.  Brad's promised both strong mod tools and some tutorials, while experienced modders here (Heavenfall and SeanW) have already done some fantastic things with the beta.  I'm planning to learn how to mod the finished game.  Already have several ideas I'd like to implement in the way of heroes and items.  I'd like to suggest those who are more ambitious consider doing the same.

Reply #39 Top

So i've only been playing the game for a few days now but it seems to me the magic system is the aspect of the game most in need of some love. Thoroughly agree with the OP's analysis and suggestions but its probably too late in the day to expect a complete overhaul of the system right? What changes could be made within the current system to make it workable?

Exclusivity of Sovereign

This seems pretty easily doable in the current system, considering they seem to have adopted the 5 spell types suggested by the OP, and would turn the sovereign from just another caster into an important strategic decision which would also really help define the factions.

 

Elemental Shards

Having them affect the power of all spells seems a no brainer to me (why affect some but not others?), then add in a spell that allows you to change the element of a shard to any other and suddenly players have real choice about how they want to focus their magical abilities. Again seems pretty easy to implement; we already have the corrupt spell, and some spells are affected by shards so nothing that isn't already there.

 

More Summons

Currently summoning is a bizzarely empty school of magic, especially considering two of the starting factions official profession is 'summoner'. We need alot more strategic summons (currently there are what 4?), and the ability to cast multiples of each summon. We should be able to raise armies this way, and if that seems overpowered (as it bypasses the build que and research tree) then just increase their upkeep sigificantly so a player really has to focus on mana gain to raise and keep said army. You don't even need to design new units for this, making spells to summon existing beasties should just be a matter of copy paste.

 

Strategic Spell Limitations

This one really needs some work. Not quite sure how to approach this, the obvious route is only let strategic spells be cast in your own territory but then a caster should also be able cast in his field of view. How do you show that though? You can't give the sovereign a field of territory as it were, but fields of vision often blend together, so how do you make it obvious where you can and can't cast? Also strategic spells really need a casting time to prevent spam. Perhaps the sovereign could be immobilzed for a set number of turns while they cast the spell, but make them very powerful to compensate?

 

What do you guys reckon? Any way to improve the current magic system which the devs might realistically be able to implement?

 

 

Reply #40 Top

Like with everything there is a time to make a choice and run with it.  As of now, the magic system will probably not change very much.  With the modding capability and a great chance in continueing the series I think this will evolve into something that will be better.  If you step back and look at WOM and compare the difference between that and this, I can only imagine better things to come.  Also you got to ask yourself, why has it taken this long since MOM for a game like this to come out.  I would have the guess that the risk is much higher for a game of this type.  So I will support Stardock becuase I feel they are heading in the right direction for this type of game.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting bottleimp, reply 40

Elemental Shards

Having them affect the power of all spells seems a no brainer to me (why affect some but not others?), then add in a spell that allows you to change the element of a shard to any other and suddenly players have real choice about how they want to focus their magical abilities. Again seems pretty easy to implement; we already have the corrupt spell, and some spells are affected by shards so nothing that isn't already there. 

 

 

If anyone feels to discuss the issue of shard mutation, which is a delicate one and imo very much worth discussing, contribute here !! :)

About summons I'd like 5th level magic summons like Balrog (fire), Archangel (Life) and so on. In short, something really cool. I bet they'll get them in before release, I see no reason not to.

Reply #42 Top

A very good topic of conversation. I agree with many of the OP's listed problems with the magic system but I don't agree so much with the suggested solutions. That in itself probably reflects the problem Stardock face, there are many ways the magic system could be improved and someone is bound to hate any system.

However there does seem to be general concensus that, despite recent improvements, it could still use more love.

One thing, I don't think strategic spells are unlimited, I think each spellcaster with sufficient schools of magic to cast a strategic spell can cast it exactly one time per turn, mana permitting. I could be wrong though, I haven't tried testing this limit in a while.

Reply #43 Top

I don't think FE will sink like WOM. They have done enough in other aspects to make it at least mildly entertaining. But the magic system lacks a little something that prevents it from been a classic. (I doubt modding will help a lot unless the modding is REALLY flexible, I doubt it can change the magic system much).

I think of this attempt as AOW1/AOW2. Not bad.. but not yet the classic AOW2 SM will become. 

 

Maybe the next installment will help.

 

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Glazunov1, reply 39
We've had numerous threads about how the magic system can be made better.  Each one is different, and each time many people come forward to say how wonderful the changes would be.  Seems to me everyone has their own way of improving magic in FE.

Actually, this is a case of "current situation is so bad that so many things would be an improvement" rather then every single person having a different idea of what magic SHOULD be. I applauded other improvement ideas in the past and THIS one seems to be the best yet by a far margin.

The OPs main argument is to make spell selection work like in an RPG... like the sorceress in Diablo2... this actually meshes very very well with FE's design.

FE is not at its heart a strategy like MoM or AoW. It is an RPG/TBS hybrid. At the moment the TBS portion is much more fleshed out, yet due to being far weaker (in terms of game balance) then the RPG portion victory comes from focusing on the RPG. And yet the RPG is where the game is still rather underdeveloped. It CAN be made to work but it needs significant improvement and investment in the RPG aspect of the game. As well as admitting that it is a hybrid game when making balance changes to the TBS portion (which doesn't seem to case, pretending its a pure TBS seems to be the operating modus).

Now, those flaws don't mean that the game is bad. But it is currently mediocre while having the potential to be one of the best games ever made. Moving the majority of magic out of the TBS portion and into the RPG portion of the game would go a long way towards polishing this game.

Reply #45 Top



Spells need to be CHOSEN, and not given. Because this game focuses on researching Tech and not Spells (Because the Dual Research system of EWoM was cumbersome, and I am glad it is gone), Spells need to be chosen a different way. Why not utilize the tried-and-true skill tree method?

For instance; Sovereigns get 2 Spell points to spend every level, plus more if they choose the "Research Spells" level improvement. Champions only get spell points if they choose the level up which gives them points (they aren't natural casters, after all). 
You need to have X number of spells chosen in Fire before you gain the ability to choose Apprentice level spells, but you may continue learning Novice level spells to improve your ability if there are no Apprentice spells which interest you.
This system would enable you to craft the Sovereign and Champions that you WANT to play instead of hoping you get to play a caster and having to choose talents which do not support your choice of play style.
This system would also clearly indicate to the player EXACTLY what types of spells they will have available to them, and EXACTLY how to get there in terms of Magic Tech research and Spell Point spending.

On this I disagree. Allowing spell choice would reduce too much the role of randomness. HoMM and MoM both had random spells and it worked very well there.

 

I strongly agree on making Sovreigns somewhat special (e.g. heroes cannot use (4)-5th level magic begin another option).

I strongly agree on making Magic Schools more characterized, with each level being meaningful. Please include mass-effect spells of 1-2 level spells at 4-5 levels, possibly with a somewhat diminished shard-boosting effect

But Devs should really, really craft the magic system with care. It is such an important piece of the game.

Reply #46 Top

The problem here with spells you have access to is not randomess vs choice.

The problem is everyone with same spell levels gets the same spells! And it's way too easy to get them by leveling or acquiring champions.

All the suggestions above are attempts to solve this in different ways.

To be clear all Earth apprentices get the same set of spells (quests not withstanding, and these are a small proportion of the game). You also get spells by researching some tech, but again totally bland.. everyone gets the same , a few faction differences not withstanding.

The problem here is that if everyone gets all the spells in their spell level, variety and diversity is down to a minimum.

Say like everyone wants in this thread, SD adds dozens of summons per spell level. Sure you get more choices of summons but it doesn't differentiate you from other players or even yourself playing a second time for replyabaility value cos you get the same summons (assuming you had the same spell skills)!

SD always worried about faction differentiation and wanting every player to play different - increase variety of play etc but for some reason they dont seem to care about magic.

Just coming up with the 5 elements and sticking then into 4 levels isn't sufficient variety.

Why? Because regardless of what you chose for your sovereign.. it doesn't matter, you can easily get champions who will give you access to the other elements and levels. 

And very soon you have access to the same spells again.  

One way to consider diversity in magic is this. How many games do you take before you have access to every single spell in the game?

Notice that this is *not just* a function of the number of spells you have in the game. You could have a 1,000 spells, but divided into just say 2 skills and if you could only pick 1 skill per game, you would have access to all spells in 2 games. Or you could have 100 spells divided into 20 skills, and if you could only pick 1 skill per game, you would take 20 games to exhaust it.

I submit with FE, while there is more variety than the example above, it's still relatively low because you could always get champions to supplement.

There are 5 elements x 4 levels = 20 spell skills and assume each level gives you the same number of spells. (I am keeping the analysis simple by ignoring spells with multiple requirements or the few that need paths)

Say you get on average 3-5 champions (including the sovereign as a champion) a game. Say even if you specialize just 2 champions (including sovereign) as magic users,  Chances are you will probably pick magic skills whenever possible when leveling , you can easily get Level 4 in at least 1 element and level 2s/3s in the other.

But let's assume you got unlucky and managed just 1xlevel 4 in 2 champions. 

That means in *one* game alone you get 8/20 = 40% of spells available to use! And if you like me go crazy on magic using champions it's a lot higher.

Compare this to MOM. Even if you went crazy and did the 11 book strategy, that's just one out of 5 paths = 20%. And that's extremely costly strategy, since 11 book strategy (or 10) is just one possible strategy which you dont do every game as you need the picks to select other traits like warlord , channeler etc. It would take ages before you saw every spell due to the fact that 1) Your initial choices set your spells in stone which you couldn't change further by levelling (though trading was possible) or gaining champions (a few could cast some spells) , unless you did five 11 book strategies in a row. 

And if you didn't do 10/11 book strategies, it would take ages to see all the spells due to randomness. 3 Nature, didn't mean you definitely got access to the same 30% of the nature spells, while in FE, getting Level 3 in Fire, did definitely mean you saw all the spells up to that level.

In FE, you could pick Fire apprentice, and Earth Apprentice, and still use picks for other things.. and still be fairly certain of leveling to reach 100% of all Fire or Earth spells . Heck I think you could pick zero spell skills and still pick up champions that eventually "mastered" everything in a element or by luck your sovereign got it by leveling .

Very lengthy but basically it's too easy to get all the spells.

This is boring! Solutions to make things more varied includes

1) "Pre-selected randomess" - Master of Magic style - You select spellbooks in advance eg 3 nature spellbooks & what spells you had access were fixed at that point. But randomess lies in the fact that even if you picked 3 spellbooks in Nature you couldn't be sure what you would eventually get, but you did get some choice in the order you researched them. (The Actual MOM system gives you some guaranteed options also)

2) "Post-selected randomness" - You level up, and you get offered a small selection of spells to learn. Similar to leveling up now where you select traits.  Randomness is built-in , in that it may offer you 3 spells out of 5 possible, but you do get to pick the ones you want with some degree of control

3) Pre-selected/post selected no randomness - Same as 1) or 2), except there is no randomness, you select whatever spells you want, but pre-selected would mean the choices are set in stone pre-game, post-selected would be as you leveled.

4) Make the initial picks of spell skills more important by preventing champions from having too many magic skills or if they have it.. be limited somehow that they could cast lesser ones - eg only soverigns can cast strategic spells.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #47 Top

There are 5 elements x 4 levels

6 elements and 5 levels each. but not every level has 4 spells, IIRC some have only 2 spells.

The elements are: Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Life, Death.

Empire get death, Kingdoms get life

Reply #48 Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 33

Very little of what I identified months ago has been addressed on any significant level. Spell progression is still erratic in pace, static in improvement, and usefulness of spells is still largely hinged upon the RNG deciding to place the correct type of shards near your spawn point.
 
For a "Strategy Game", there is far too much randomness and too many holes in the current system to make the "path of magic" anything other than an opportunity taken when available. It cannot be a strategy from the outset of the game because of these holes. I would say the necromancy and subsequent activity of a 4 month old thread speaks to the validity of the claims in the OP.

k1 Perfectly put, and karma for the eloquence.

FE has done a lot to "heal the damage" done by EWoM, but sadly it's still failing in the aspect that was supposed to matter the most - that is, magic. Currently it's considered by many the worst thing of the game, actually.  

We've done what we could, since we've been stressing and advocating the importance of magic and the need for a better system for 2 years. Time to sit back and see how it plays out. At least the word "magic" was removed from the title of the game...

Reply #49 Top

Suggestion:

Each Champion level up of one of the main magic skills (Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Life, Death) provides +1 shard of the relevant type, and +1 mana/turn.

Based on Derek's criteria in https://forums.elementalgame.com/431875

1: Helps with the core focus of leveling Champions.

2&3 Helps solve the following problems:

Casters are dependant on finding shards of the matching type

Casters easily run out of mana early in the game.

Gaining a level up of one of the magic skills sometimes does not make the champion better at magic (when the spells are not so appealing).

High level casters are substantially worse than high level fighters.

4: May not have much drool factor.

5: Probably easy to implement.

6: Feedback can be provided in the description of the magic skill level up, and in the change in the number of shards listed in the UI.

Reply #50 Top

Anyone here willing to try my Path Progression Mod? It redefines the magic system so that any hero can have an Elemental Spellbook, but only those that level as a mage<arcanist<warlock will be able to use it efficiently and effectively. As you level up, you get many new spells, depending on what kind of mage you specialize as.